Principia Discordia

Principia Discordia => Or Kill Me => Topic started by: SparrowtheFallen on June 19, 2020, 08:50:37 am

Title: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: SparrowtheFallen on June 19, 2020, 08:50:37 am
Everywhere i go where people are "against the status quo" i see the same thing. Some idiot somewhere telling people meds are evil. And i get it. meds are overprescribed, they sometimes have negative side-effects, all that shit. but you always hear about the negative shit.
People Love complaining. you hear about all the negative shit because the people for whom the shit works, dont have to talk about it.
So i am here to say this: stop demonizing medication, you assholes.

Not only do medications allow some people to function, it is dangerous to just outright stop taking them.
Withdrawal sucks. it can fucking kill you if its bad enough.


but what do I know? I am just a bird with a broken wing.
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: Faust on June 19, 2020, 09:07:40 am
You flew into our window, broke the wing and are now sitting in the pool on the roof chirping at a bunch of people who often espouse the legalization of all substances, for medical or recreational use, to stop demonising medication.

I assume you are specifically talking about SSRI's and not grandmothers insulin, they work for some people, they dont for others
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: SparrowtheFallen on June 19, 2020, 09:15:58 am
Honestly, this place is less dickish about it, true, but still, there are people in here with the "medication bad" viewpoint, something about being told to take them rubs them up the wrong way i guess. i just posted this rant to bitch about it, i have long ago stopped expecting that people listen to me, now i bitch because it makes me feel better

and yes, i am talking about shit like SSRI's, though i have once heard an absolute moron say that any medication is bad for you. not expecting that moron to survive very long though.
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: altered on June 19, 2020, 09:36:14 am
Honestly, this place is less dickish about it, true, but still, there are people in here with the "medication bad" viewpoint,

[snip]

Are there?
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: The Johnny on June 19, 2020, 09:40:22 am
Honestly, this place is less dickish about it, true, but still, there are people in here with the "medication bad" viewpoint, something about being told to take them rubs them up the wrong way i guess. i just posted this rant to bitch about it, i have long ago stopped expecting that people listen to me, now i bitch because it makes me feel better

and yes, i am talking about shit like SSRI's, though i have once heard an absolute moron say that any medication is bad for you. not expecting that moron to survive very long though.

The only person that had that agenda was RWHN (but that was about "illegal drugs", not "medication" per se), but hes gone now after some 500 pages of "high level debate".

But that is not to say that medication/drugs do not have side effects nor consequences... sometimes the side effects are negligible, sometimes it can kill you at different rates of speed. But it should be your right to decide what you consume, despite how noxious it is to your health. Now, on the production side of it, they do have the responsibility to document what the side effects are.

Now, there's certain drugs that can make one go berserk and harm others, I dont know how often that happens with crack and meth compared to say, cocaine... but stuff like that is something beyond harm to oneself (which is fine) and becomes danger to others. For example, theres regulations against driving under the influence, so if it's documented that certain substances have a high % of making you want to harm or kill others, then perhaps it should be required that one should be locked up during its effect.

Its just that ive heard/seen of several cases of high as fuck naked men that in broad daylight assault, kill and start cannibalizing their victims in the middle of the sidewalk... dont really know if that was due to a pre-existing psychological condition, or if it was purely induced by a specific drug, but that scenario does not really appeal to me.
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: SparrowtheFallen on June 19, 2020, 09:48:32 am


The only person that had that agenda was RWHN (but that was about "illegal drugs", not "medication" per se), but hes gone now after some 500 pages of "high level debate".


In that case, maybe i am just a jumped up prick that got my panties in a twist about an issue in other places, and you poor bastards were the people who were closest when the lever between my brain and my mouth broke. if that is the case i apologise.
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: The Johnny on June 19, 2020, 12:26:03 pm


The only person that had that agenda was RWHN (but that was about "illegal drugs", not "medication" per se), but hes gone now after some 500 pages of "high level debate".


In that case, maybe i am just a jumped up prick that got my panties in a twist about an issue in other places, and you poor bastards were the people who were closest when the lever between my brain and my mouth broke. if that is the case i apologise.

If anything, we had some radical paganists around for a long time, I wouldnt be surprised if they argued something along those lines at some point.
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: Doktor Howl on June 19, 2020, 03:03:51 pm
Everywhere i go where people are "against the status quo" i see the same thing. Some idiot somewhere telling people meds are evil.

You're in the wrong neighborhood.
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: Doktor Howl on June 19, 2020, 03:04:47 pm
Honestly, this place is less dickish about it, true, but still, there are people in here with the "medication bad" viewpoint,

You got here today.
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: Doktor Howl on June 19, 2020, 03:06:50 pm
 :kingmeh:
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: chaotic neutral observer on June 19, 2020, 03:22:45 pm
I've been around here for a couple years.  If someone had started a rant against anti-depressants during that time, I expect I would have noticed, and I would not have reacted politely.
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: SparrowtheFallen on June 19, 2020, 03:24:10 pm


You got here today.

yep, and i like bitching.
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: Doktor Howl on June 19, 2020, 03:25:57 pm


You got here today.

yep, and i like bitching.

I can already tell that your arrival brings many novel things.
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: Doktor Howl on June 19, 2020, 03:27:33 pm
I've been around here for a couple years.  If someone had started a rant against anti-depressants during that time, I expect I would have noticed, and I would not have reacted politely.

You are not giving this thread the rage and froth that it deserves, my good man.  Letting the side down, so to speak.
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: Doktor Howl on June 19, 2020, 03:28:28 pm
Honestly, this place is less dickish about it, true, but still, there are people in here with the "medication bad" viewpoint,

[snip]

Are there?

If there aren't, StF will just insist that there are.
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: SparrowtheFallen on June 19, 2020, 03:34:36 pm

I can already tell that your arrival brings many novel things.

i mean, if an uppity moron spilling his stupidity is novel here something is wrong with this forum.

I am not afraid to admit i am a dumbass, but it aint me who has to deal with my stupidity, so... yeah.
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: Doktor Howl on June 19, 2020, 03:35:02 pm

I can already tell that your arrival brings many novel things.

i mean, if an uppity moron spilling his stupidity is novel here something is wrong with this forum.

I am not afraid to admit i am a dumbass, but it aint me who has to deal with my stupidity, so... yeah.

You're going to do very well here.
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: SparrowtheFallen on June 19, 2020, 03:40:17 pm


You're going to do very well here.

Thanks? i honestly cant tell if you are being sarcastic or not.
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on June 19, 2020, 03:44:18 pm


You're going to do very well here.

Thanks? i honestly cant tell if you are being sarcastic or not.

Are you only honest when you declare it so? Honestly I can't tell.
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: chaotic neutral observer on June 19, 2020, 03:45:14 pm
I've been around here for a couple years.  If someone had started a rant against anti-depressants during that time, I expect I would have noticed, and I would not have reacted politely.

You are not giving this thread the rage and froth that it deserves, my good man.  Letting the side down, so to speak.
It takes me a while to warm up.
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: Doktor Howl on June 19, 2020, 03:45:22 pm


You're going to do very well here.

Thanks? i honestly cant tell if you are being sarcastic or not.

I am greater than a half century old.  I am in fact so old I have been abandoned by my local economy, and thus survive by unhinging my jaw and devouring unwary pigeons.  In all of the horribly long years of my overstayed life, I have never once been sarcastic.
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: chaotic neutral observer on June 19, 2020, 03:46:13 pm
i mean, if an uppity moron spilling his stupidity is novel here something is wrong with this forum.

I am not afraid to admit i am a dumbass, but it aint me who has to deal with my stupidity, so... yeah.
You remind me of Fujikoma.  I didn't like Fujikoma.  He, too, thought that admitting his failings meant he didn't have to do anything about them.  Assuming you're not just an alt.

You definitely will have to deal with the consequences of your stupidity.
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: SparrowtheFallen on June 19, 2020, 03:51:12 pm

Are you only honest when you declare it so? Honestly I can't tell.

I only lie when it's through my teeth
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: Doktor Howl on June 19, 2020, 03:51:39 pm
i mean, if an uppity moron spilling his stupidity is novel here something is wrong with this forum.

I am not afraid to admit i am a dumbass, but it aint me who has to deal with my stupidity, so... yeah.
You remind me of Fujikoma.  I didn't like Fujikoma.  He, too, thought that admitting his failings meant he didn't have to do anything about them.  Assuming you're not just an alt.

You definitely will have to deal with the consequences of your stupidity.

This is awesome, really.  We have what is basically a newly-hatched reddit troll that wandered into a goldfish fancier page and started screaming at everyone to stop hating goldfish.

It's fascinating.
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: Doktor Howl on June 19, 2020, 03:52:29 pm
i mean, if an uppity moron spilling his stupidity is novel here something is wrong with this forum.

I am not afraid to admit i am a dumbass, but it aint me who has to deal with my stupidity, so... yeah.
You remind me of Fujikoma.  I didn't like Fujikoma.  He, too, thought that admitting his failings meant he didn't have to do anything about them.  Assuming you're not just an alt.

You definitely will have to deal with the consequences of your stupidity.

This is more like if Fujikoma had a baby with Raz Tech, and it was left to be raised by feral boars.
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: SparrowtheFallen on June 19, 2020, 03:58:59 pm

You remind me of Fujikoma.  I didn't like Fujikoma.  He, too, thought that admitting his failings meant he didn't have to do anything about them.  Assuming you're not just an alt.

You definitely will have to deal with the consequences of your stupidity.

i can promise you i am not an alt of whoever the fuck that is. and i deal with the consequences of my stupidity every time i open my mouth, about five seconds after i realise what i said.
I despise myself, and long to find the person who hates me more than i do.
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: Doktor Howl on June 19, 2020, 04:13:04 pm

You remind me of Fujikoma.  I didn't like Fujikoma.  He, too, thought that admitting his failings meant he didn't have to do anything about them.  Assuming you're not just an alt.

You definitely will have to deal with the consequences of your stupidity.

i can promise you i am not an alt of whoever the fuck that is. and i deal with the consequences of my stupidity every time i open my mouth, about five seconds after i realise what i said.
I despise myself, and long to find the person who hates me more than i do.

You have in fact arrived.  :lulz:
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on June 19, 2020, 04:13:41 pm
Quote
i can promise you i am not an alt of whoever the fuck that is.

Sounds like something an alt of whoever the fuck that is would say.
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: chaotic neutral observer on June 19, 2020, 04:23:30 pm
it aint me who has to deal with my stupidity

i deal with the consequences of my stupidity every time i open my mouth,

I don't even know what to do with this.  It's like you're walking into a shooting gallery with a bullseye stapled to your butt.
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: Doktor Howl on June 19, 2020, 04:27:05 pm
it aint me who has to deal with my stupidity

i deal with the consequences of my stupidity every time i open my mouth,

I don't even know what to do with this.  It's like you're walking into a shooting gallery with a bullseye stapled to your butt.

I am betting, against the first person to take me up on it, a full page hate letter that StF's IP address is different by tomorrow.
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: SparrowtheFallen on June 19, 2020, 04:29:21 pm
it aint me who has to deal with my stupidity

i deal with the consequences of my stupidity every time i open my mouth,

thats completely fair. but what can i say. I am not a smart man, so shoot away, i guess, or realise that i am not worth the effort, either way i will be judging myself for this. i will try to be less of a dumb fuck in the future. but i will probably fail, and we can dance this lovely little tango again.

I don't even know what to do with this.  It's like you're walking into a shooting gallery with a bullseye stapled to your butt.
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: SparrowtheFallen on June 19, 2020, 04:31:00 pm
it aint me who has to deal with my stupidity

i deal with the consequences of my stupidity every time i open my mouth,

thats completely fair. but what can i say. I am not a smart man, so shoot away, i guess, or realise that i am not worth the effort, either way i will be judging myself for this. i will try to be less of a dumb fuck in the future. but i will probably fail, and we can dance this lovely little tango again.

I don't even know what to do with this.  It's like you're walking into a shooting gallery with a bullseye stapled to your butt.

...welp i fucked that up...
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: SparrowtheFallen on June 19, 2020, 04:35:32 pm
it aint me who has to deal with my stupidity

i deal with the consequences of my stupidity every time i open my mouth,

I don't even know what to do with this.  It's like you're walking into a shooting gallery with a bullseye stapled to your butt.

I am betting, against the first person to take me up on it, a full page hate letter that StF's IP address is different by tomorrow.

depends on how my computer handles using usb tethering. but i have no reason to hide. maybe that makes me dumber than i think i am, but it is what it is i guess.
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: SparrowtheFallen on June 19, 2020, 04:39:43 pm
it aint me who has to deal with my stupidity

i deal with the consequences of my stupidity every time i open my mouth,

I don't even know what to do with this.  It's like you're walking into a shooting gallery with a bullseye stapled to your butt.

redoing it cause i dont believe in editing posts, so replying again.

thats completely fair. but what can i say. I am not a smart man, so shoot away, i guess, or realise that i am not worth the effort, either way i will be judging myself for this. i will try to be less of a dumb fuck in the future. but i will probably fail, and we can dance this lovely little tango again.
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: Cain on June 19, 2020, 05:10:07 pm
*reads title*

OK

*stops doing something he wasn't doing anyway*

That was easier than I thought.
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: altered on June 19, 2020, 06:47:57 pm
ďDonít believe in editing postsĒ

Man, I missed a lot after I passed out. Whew, what a wretched stench of dipshit.


You see, O new meat, Iím what happened to Fujikoma.

I can be what happens to you too.


Not yet, though, you just arenít that interesting. But you are too dumb and too unaware of that fact to avoid it forever.

To be clear here, you have Dunning-Kruger issues with being stupid. You have no idea how far your intelligence plunges.

And that means inevitably you are going to say something someone refuses to entertain, they will explode at you, you will say something very ill-advised and then we all get to board that train to Tucson, where lies disappointment and despair.

So here is a novel approach for you:

When someone calls you out for being an idiot, apologize and donít do that thing that got you called out again.

Also, check your post history and that of others before you type some shit you didnít think about for half a goddamn second, to avoid moments like CNO catching you saying two different, mutually exclusive things depending on where the pressure is coming from. Thatís fucking sad. Donít be that person.
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: SparrowtheFallen on June 19, 2020, 07:16:29 pm
ďDonít believe in editing postsĒ

Man, I missed a lot after I passed out. Whew, what a wretched stench of dipshit.


You see, O new meat, Iím what happened to Fujikoma.

I can be what happens to you too.


Not yet, though, you just arenít that interesting. But you are too dumb and too unaware of that fact to avoid it forever.

To be clear here, you have Dunning-Kruger issues with being stupid. You have no idea how far your intelligence plunges.

And that means inevitably you are going to say something someone refuses to entertain, they will explode at you, you will say something very ill-advised and then we all get to board that train to Tucson, where lies disappointment and despair.

So here is a novel approach for you:

When someone calls you out for being an idiot, apologize and donít do that thing that got you called out again.

Also, check your post history and that of others before you type some shit you didnít think about for half a goddamn second, to avoid moments like CNO catching you saying two different, mutually exclusive things depending on where the pressure is coming from. Thatís fucking sad. Donít be that person.

Fair enough. i will be looking forward to our next meeting, and will try my best not to overly offend anyone. especially since being offensive is an easy way to piss people off, i am here to be more of an irritation, and maybe actually be part of civil discussions in my rare moments of clarity.

i am more of a lurker anyway. so yeah. anyway, i'mma sign off for the night, before i embarass myself further. feel free to take bets on wether my next post will be during a moment of dumbassery, or a moment of clarity.
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: Doktor Howl on June 19, 2020, 07:50:04 pm

i am here to be more of an irritation,

That's an odd ambition, but okay.
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: Ari on June 22, 2020, 03:08:53 pm
feel free to take bets on wether my next post will be during a moment of dumbassery, or a moment of clarity.

you make it sound like those are mutually exclusive
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: minuspace on June 22, 2020, 04:38:45 pm
Quote
I am here to be more of an irritation

Just responding to this made me capitalize that ďIĒ - anything  else to share?
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: Freeky on June 25, 2020, 02:45:46 am
*reads title*

OK

*stops doing something he wasn't doing anyway*

That was easier than I thought.

not like that  :argh!:
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: Don Coyote on June 25, 2020, 02:57:42 am
 :ohboy::omg: :ohnotache: :cramstipated::remaincalm: :fap2:
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: Pergamos on July 10, 2020, 06:32:18 pm
You flew into our window, broke the wing and are now sitting in the pool on the roof chirping at a bunch of people who often espouse the legalization of all substances, for medical or recreational use, to stop demonising medication.

I assume you are specifically talking about SSRI's and not grandmothers insulin, they work for some people, they dont for others

Insulin will very definitely kill you if your body already makes it in sufficient quantities.  SSRI's won't unless you combine them with the wrong things.  SSRI's without a perscpription, or as a lazy prescription by a doctor who doesn't really know what's wrong aren't going to do much harm.  Less orgasms and creativity.  Insulin without a prescription will probably kill you.  Insulin from a lazy doctor sounds unlikely, unless that doctor cheated their way through medical school.
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: Doktor Howl on July 10, 2020, 07:46:34 pm
You flew into our window, broke the wing and are now sitting in the pool on the roof chirping at a bunch of people who often espouse the legalization of all substances, for medical or recreational use, to stop demonising medication.

I assume you are specifically talking about SSRI's and not grandmothers insulin, they work for some people, they dont for others

Insulin will very definitely kill you if your body already makes it in sufficient quantities.  SSRI's won't unless you combine them with the wrong things.  SSRI's without a perscpription, or as a lazy prescription by a doctor who doesn't really know what's wrong aren't going to do much harm.  Less orgasms and creativity.  Insulin without a prescription will probably kill you.  Insulin from a lazy doctor sounds unlikely, unless that doctor cheated their way through medical school.

Was there a point to this, or was this just pedantry?
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: Faust on July 10, 2020, 09:14:01 pm
Yeah I am not sure I get this. I am not against SSRI's and I am only against insulin as it pushes the Diabetic Agenda
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: Nyborj the Priest on July 10, 2020, 10:03:36 pm
Less orgasms and creativity.

When my depression was untreated and I was prone to spending days at a time hiding in bed, neither orgasms nor creativity were a part of my life at all.
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: altered on July 11, 2020, 05:10:59 am
I want this thread to die.
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: Pergamos on July 12, 2020, 04:51:08 am
You flew into our window, broke the wing and are now sitting in the pool on the roof chirping at a bunch of people who often espouse the legalization of all substances, for medical or recreational use, to stop demonising medication.

I assume you are specifically talking about SSRI's and not grandmothers insulin, they work for some people, they dont for others

Insulin will very definitely kill you if your body already makes it in sufficient quantities.  SSRI's won't unless you combine them with the wrong things.  SSRI's without a perscpription, or as a lazy prescription by a doctor who doesn't really know what's wrong aren't going to do much harm.  Less orgasms and creativity.  Insulin without a prescription will probably kill you.  Insulin from a lazy doctor sounds unlikely, unless that doctor cheated their way through medical school.

Was there a point to this, or was this just pedantry?

That Insulin, which everyone knows is good medicine, is WAY worse for you than SSRI's which are commonly demonized.
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: altered on July 12, 2020, 05:40:53 am
AHEM

Maybe I wasnít clear enough, but I said I want this thread to die, and by god Iíll do it myself if I must, in the time-honored PD way: shitting mightily.

A fool made this thread, and a fool is keeping it alive, and I hate it. If you want to pretend that this sort of thread on this forum isnít just preaching to the choir, then youíre an imbecile, and if youíre venting about other people off forum you need to REALLY SHIT ABOUT IT. Donít just lecture or info dump at me, befoul your fucking seat.

For the TL;DR crowd: If your pants are not full when you post then do not bump this, just let it die an ignominious death.
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: picoli on August 01, 2020, 09:51:27 pm
I get what you mean, so many people would have more problems without meds.  :eek:
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: Doktor Howl on August 03, 2020, 03:31:43 pm
I get what you mean, so many people would have more problems without meds.  :eek:

 :wave:
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: Fujikoma on October 10, 2020, 07:15:49 pm
I can confidently say that guy isn't me. More on topic, there's a little potential issue with SSRIs, but it's only certain cases that have it. It happened to me. I didn't know I was bipolar, the doctors didn't either, they just knew I was very depressed at the time, so they gave me SSRIs. The problem with that is it can trigger a manic episode. Again plenty of people take SSRIs without any major issues whatsoever, so they're not somehow inherently bad, and in fact for the people they work for they can be a godsend.

But that's not what happened to me, it snowballed into literally the worst manic episode in my life. This is why you should be totally honest with your doctors, so they can get a gauge of your mood and know that something might be, off. It was really scary. That said I would never say "medication bad", but I would tell anyone willing to listen that it's also important you are aware of your mental state and don't just take it for granted, lest you end up playing matador with 75 mph traffic on the interstate like I did.

If one is ever considering not taking their medications it is important to discuss it with their doctor. These folks go to school for a very long time  to know the things they do, and provided there's no scum-tells from them you should actually, you know, trust them, don't pull a dumbass and embarrass yourself and possibly cause accidents like I did.
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: Fomalhaut on October 10, 2020, 07:46:47 pm
Fuck it, deleted my dumb posts.

It really doesnít matter to me. This is just a topic that Iím kind of invested in.

Doctors went to school for a long time. Mistakes still happen. Psychiatry is a fairly young and still imperfect science. Some doctors are wonderful people who ultimately just want to help, other doctors are in it mostly for the money, some have become jaded over the years and are burnt out, some may have done worse in school than others but just well enough to pass. Doctors are fallible humans. Itís really the luck of the draw with which sort of doctor youíll find, and Godspeed trying to figure it out during the 10 minute conversations youíll have with them. Better off just hoping for the best. In the end, youíre paying to be a Psychiatric guinea pig, and denying that is just as dumb as denying that SSRIs and Antipsychotics can be helpful. In most cases it turns out well as long as you have a good doctor, and yields good results.  In America, at least, itís also unfortunately very expensive. Some people are able to find other methods of healing, and as long as their methods of doing so arenít harming themselves or others, why should anyone give a shit.  I donít see how that takes away from the fact that many people are helped by psychiatric treatment.

Mental health treatment has pretty much always, historically, been a pretty abusive system, so the distrust we see from those who DO demonize psychiatry may be misguided, but isnít entirely unfounded. Itís only fairly recently with the advent of these medications that it has even begun to be seen as ďhelpfulĒ to the patient rather than a way to get those people out of societyís hair or study them (which allowed us to get this far, so thank the poor tormented souls who went through lobotomies, abusive archaic therapeutic experimentation, the old shock treatments, etc for their sacrifice). This is progress, at least.

ďMedication BadĒ and ďMental Health System perfectĒ are both forms of Black and White thinking, which is disordered.
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: Fujikoma on October 10, 2020, 09:30:59 pm
Well yeah, it's imperfect, and what came before was a serious humanitarian tragedy. To try to deny that or sweep it under the rug is, in my opinion, the worst kind of willful-ignorance. Sometimes, it's easy for folks to forget that our policies were a source of inspiration for the Nazis. Eugenics is a constant stain on our history that persists in society like a dank, bloody fart. But now things are a lot better, and at this point refusing to seek help for mental illness is highly dangerous and irresponsible. It's no longer like the days of my grandparents where people were sterilized to maintain some mistaken notion of genetic superiority.

EDITED TO ADD: Also the issue of funding may be a challenge. For a while I couldn't get treatment, but if you're in the United States, you could try calling the United Way at 211 to ask about social services, there may be some available for you that you didn't previously know about, it worked for me when I was homeless, they got me set up with the services I needed to at least maintain some semblance of stability. But unlike say, a suicide hotline, you likely won't get the police called on you, get wrestled to the ground, potentially shot, just inquire about available services because it's much more fraught with peril in the event of an emergency.
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: Fujikoma on October 10, 2020, 11:37:25 pm
Well, I admit that's a bit of a blind spot for me, as I haven't spent much time inside a mental health hospital. This is because I barely got my shit together before such time as I might be hospitalized. I've heard horror stories from people who've been inside them, and while vague, it's not pretty. I'm honestly lucky I never had that experience. Most of my experience is what you get if you get help before society resorts to such measures. I appreciate you giving your perspective and hope mine doesn't upset you.

EDIT: Now I look like I'm talking to myself because someone keeps deleting their posts.
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: Fomalhaut on October 11, 2020, 12:58:06 am
Well, I admit that's a bit of a blind spot for me, as I haven't spent much time inside a mental health hospital. This is because I barely got my shit together before such time as I might be hospitalized. I've heard horror stories from people who've been inside them, and while vague, it's not pretty. I'm honestly lucky I never had that experience. Most of my experience is what you get if you get help before society resorts to such measures. I appreciate you giving your perspective and hope mine doesn't upset you.

EDIT: Now I look like I'm talking to myself because someone keeps deleting their posts.

Iím sorry for deleting. I thought my post may have been considered beside the point  or as oversharing personal stuff. Basically thought it would be ignored, so I didnít realize Iíd look like a jerk and make you look like youíre talking to yourself. That experience was very painful and Iím still working through a lot of the trauma surrounding it, so you didnít upset me. The memories upset me. I donít ultimately blame the mental health system itself for it, what I went through and witnessed was like the infected asshole of mental treatment thatís usually covered up by the veneer of breakthrough treatments and good Therapy (the positive progress) and experienced by people who are are too far gone to defend themselves. But my heart breaks for the people trapped in those situations and hospitals right now with severe, treatment resistant issues, who did nothing wrong but have a severely messed up and confused brain, who nobody who cares about and with nobody to advocate for them.

What happened to me and the weeks of abuse I endured and witnessed was due to a mistake in medication. I was  prescribed an SSRI, antipsychotic, and some kind of barbiturate. The staff at the hospital took the reaction I had to the medication-concoction  as being symptoms of one of those severe, treatment resistant issues, and the doctor assigned to me went on vacation for weeks the day after prescribing them so it couldnít be changed. Nurses canít go against doctors orders, so they kept giving me these meds that were making me severely psychotic (so psychotic I didnít know who I was or where I was and was speaking gibberish), and it snowballed until I ended up in a place like that. The only thing that got me out was the fact that I had a boyfriend at the time who kept coming to visit and advocating for me and trying to get them to understand that I had never behaved like that before, it mustíve been the new meds. These other folks arenít so lucky as their issues arenít negative reactions, but rather disorders that donít get resolved by their medications. Or, potentially, some rare horror stories like mine but without a single fucking person in the world who cares enough or knows them well enough to advocate for them.

Iím sorry that youíve been through what you have, and glad that youíve found access to good treatment. Like  I said in the post that was deleted, I agree with everything you wrote. The old abuse is just still present in some severe cases and in some low income and/or neglectful hospitals with untrained staff and doctors who unfortunately donít care enough. Some state hospitals are likely better than others. One reason abuse is still able to occur is the fact that the science has not yet caught up to the point where we actually know how to help those people beyond institutionalization, and too few people ever come out of it cognizant enough to talk about it. And not enough people care, due to the stigma that these people must be violent or done something terrible (or have the potential to) even though most of them arenít. Some people in state hospitals were sent there by the court system, other people have just been dumped there because there was no where else to put them. Theyíre just the worthless ones, the ones who canít speak, or when they do speak its garbled and lost in sanity-translation. They canít work, canít live on their own or functionally in group homes, thereís nowhere for them. If they donít die in the street, they potentially end up in one of those abusive hospitals and never get out. Most people who need or seek treatment likely (and thankfully) wonít ever experience it.

Itís not in every place anymore thankfully but still there. And itís not all staff members who take part in the abuse. I have one friend who actually quit her job at at one of the local state mental hospitals despite good pay because she couldnít sit back and watch the way other staff treated patients, but was powerless in the system hierarchy to do anything about it.
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: Fomalhaut on October 11, 2020, 04:27:52 am
Holy shit.
Okie dokie.
Gonna take MY meds now and go to sleep.
Typing all this brought a rollercoaster of horrific memories, and jarring feelings from repressed ones. And I only went through it a short amount of time. Again, sorry for deleting posts. This is the first time Iíve ever even more-or-less publicly shared any of this. Mostly Iíve just been silenced in my regular life. Nobody wants to hear about it. It kills the vibe. It leads people to think less of me for having went through it. Iím afraid sharing will lead people to think they shouldnít get treatment, or shouldnít trust their doctor, so I keep my mouth shut. Iím glad I have found good doctors at this point and eternally grateful and privileged to be in a much better place in life now. Iím safe. Theyíre not. Somebody has to speak for them, even if just on a Discordian forum for now in my case, I guess.

But itís bad shit. Rape, other forms of sexual abuse, humiliation, verbal abuse, negligence, beatings, the occasional inhumane use of antipsychotic injections and restraints and good ole reliable (forced shock treatments. Yeah, theyíre better now than they were back in the day. No, they still shouldnít be used often or as a punishment. Even with advancements,  theyíre risky and cause potential further brain damage), forced sterilization surgeries (rare now, but they happen. Not all states have completely repealed the Eugenics laws from the past, so theyíve been able to continue the practice with no real legal repercussion in those rare cases). all while getting spat on and laughed at. None of its unheard of in those places and in the worst places most of itís still commonplace. Goddamn it all, itís gross and sad.
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: Fujikoma on October 11, 2020, 08:40:03 am
Fomal, I am the least person to listen to here but your experiences are important for other people to know. Unsure how the community will receive it but you should vent some all the same. It's really shitty how some people are marginalized and treated, and knowing I could've been one of those people is not an easy thing. I respect what you and people you know have endured. If you need to talk to someone through private messages then I'm willing to listen.

EDIT: But I mostly lurk here, everyone seems to hate me, possibly with good reason. I don't check here often so if you do message me a reply will almost certainly not be immediate.
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: Fomalhaut on October 13, 2020, 07:21:25 pm
Fomal, I am the least person to listen to here but your experiences are important for other people to know. Unsure how the community will receive it but you should vent some all the same. It's really shitty how some people are marginalized and treated, and knowing I could've been one of those people is not an easy thing. I respect what you and people you know have endured. If you need to talk to someone through private messages then I'm willing to listen.

EDIT: But I mostly lurk here, everyone seems to hate me, possibly with good reason. I don't check here often so if you do message me a reply will almost certainly not be immediate.

I donít really care about any of that (people not liking you here), donít know anything about the community thatís formulated here over time, and I appreciate at least one understanding response. I just ended up here out of boredom and a soft spot for Discordianism, Chaos Magick, and other somewhat related wacky topics. Also very glad that you didnít end up in an abusive situation at the hands of the mental health system. Most people fortunately donít anymore, but that doesnít mean it should be ignored to me.

Itís B.S. that the narrative has become so divisive around mental health treatment that mental health system reform is shoved aside as not being important right now because things have gotten somewhat better. If you ask me personally, itís equally misguided of us to see current psychiatric care, as it is, as the be-all-end-all, foolproof cure of all our mental ills as it is to say that it shouldnít be trusted at all. As stated before, itís only recently that we even started to see mental treatment as helpful to the patient, and we may be feeding some people to the proverbial wolves by jumping gung-ho into a social narrative where any and all emotional or behavioral ills we have can face will be solved if we just ďget treatmentĒ. Itís gotten so Black and White that on one side we have folks still denying that mental ills even exist, and on the other side folks act like the science has caught up to where any and all people with a Psychology or Psychiatry degree know exactly what theyíre doing, thereís nothing more about the human mind to be discovered, and mistakes are only rare so they shouldnít hold clout in these discussions. Iíd be very interested to see an actual accurate statistic on how rare they are, but Iíd wager unbiased or accurate ones are difficult to come by.

Plus something something trillion dollar industry with gargantuan, decades-running, marketing campaigns, Iím sure there is NO monetary incentive to spread such a narrative, pay no attention to the little man behind the curtain. ďIt works. The only real problem is those morons who donít trust us and get their treatment! It has to be shame, stupidity, or maliciousness to their fellow man, no way it ever has anything to do with our history of abuse and mistakes! I, being an elitist fuck, donít believe thereís any way the uneducated would even know anything about that, so it has to come from ignorant distrust of my expensive, *cough* I mean extensive education! They must all be stupid anti-progress hippies or Fundie Christians who still think mental illness is caused by demons in the head! Pay no mind also to the fact that most mass shooters were currently ON some kind of psych meds at the time of the shootings! Irrelevant. Or the fact that itís the medication that significantly lowers the life span of most mentally ill individuals because many antipsychotics shut down the kidneys and other necessary organs over time, or can cause suicidal ideation, or the very psychosis they are meant to sedate if mis-prescribed (which they commonly are, as a supplement to anti-depressants, without informing the patient of any of this! Iím sure the patient would be too stupid to understand if we did inform them and may even choose to not comply, or worse try to find another doctor or try some other method of mental healing that we spend a lot of energy getting people to consider more pseudoscientific than our field because they compete monetarily with Psychiatry and lose us money if they work for anybody!) Oh, posh! The progress that still remains to be had is minuscule! Shut up about reform and further progress and take your first-generation sedative, or we will have you labeled as ďAnti-ScienceĒ! I mean really, who gives a fuck about crazy people anyway? Arenít they a pain in the ass to put up with? A burden? Just send  them to us! Theyíre all dangerous. Fear them! Weíre not abusive anymore! I mean, only to the ones who donít get better or do t respond well  to the treatment, or only to the poor ones who get dumped on our doorstep with no outside support that could otherwise get us sued. I mean, who cares anyway? You all need our help and I need more money in my bank account to pay off all this student loan debt, remember?Ē

Again, Iím not in any way trying to advocate that people distrust doctors or psychiatrists, just not to BLINDLY trust anybody regardless of their profession or education. Iím also a tad bit justifiably bitter. Granted, we should also try to educate ourselves as much as possible on any topic or speak from personal experience before ever spouting distrust of any expert in any field. Iíd love to get a Psychology degree and become a card-holding expert myself. Unfortunately all that crap ruined me financially at a young age, so thatíll take longer and be more difficult to do. But anyway,  humans are all fallible, and there is still much progress to be made within our bodies of knowledge and any system or institution. In our medical system in the U.S. especially, too often the patient really does need to advocate for themselves or have someone who cares advocate for them.

They do have genetic tests now that help to rule out which meds will react particularly badly with an individualís body chemistry, but theyíre still unaffordable and inaccessible to most people, and most psychiatrists will still just guinea pig it based on the ones that most commonly work.
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: The Johnny on October 14, 2020, 01:47:10 am

The problem with "mental health" as a field, is that its intrinsically political and ideological, and their legislators and practitioners refuse to acknowledge it.

-Out of all of the bunch, neurologists are the most reliable and consistent, since they stick closely to the physical evaluation of the functioning of the relevant organs.

-Psychiatrists are like a flawed version of neurologists, because they deal with "mental disorders"... mental disorders which are based on criterions of "normality" and which their diagnosis is based on superficial symptoms rather than a deep understanding of the causes behind them... also theyre corrupted by pharma money, so they peddle medication like its god's mana.

-The psychotherapies... the field got poisoned by some notion that their supposed task is to accomplish that the patients "adapt to society", if a given society is very homogenous, this objective can devolve into brainwashing, but if a given society is very heterogenous this objective is not as damaging or dangerous... another problem is not being relativistic enough to understand and acknowledge differences in personal values between practitioner and patient, thus molding the patient to their own expectations and ideals. Another big problem is being too "trauma-oriented", while neglecting issues that revolve around inner conflict.
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: Fomalhaut on October 14, 2020, 04:08:56 pm
Yeah, itís historically been and still is in many ways, a form of social control that masquerades itself as help, previously more to the ďloved onesĒ of the mentally ill rather than the patient themselves. (Ie: controlling men used to be able to send their wives to asylums or to get lobotomies over shit like not keeping the home tidy enough, and schizophrenia as a diagnoses has historically been used to discredit and institutionalize anti-establishment Civil Rights activists).


And the psychotherapies, diagnostic manual, and medication racket arenít as transparent as they should be, or as scientifically accurate as people would like to pretend or are lead to believe. So many times, Iíve asked the psychiatrists to explain the nature of how exactly these medications fix specific emotional problems and traits and gotten a big, fat, educated  ďwe really donít know the answer to that,  but there are many  studies that show positive results and millions of people use them every day.Ē

In Merica we could have just as easily ended up with a mental health system that used the Homeopathic Constitutional Types to diagnose mental problems, if not for the oil-money backed Pharmeceutical industry largely killing the practice of Homeopathy here  (or at the very least killing the respect it still held in the early 1900s as an equally valid school of medicine). Iím not so much defending Homeopathy as trying to say their idea of Constitutional Types makes just as much sense as the diagnosis criteria in the DSM and that psychiatry is really equally ďpseudoscientificĒ, since  they also do no tests and diagnose based on a couple observable traits in that moment and any traits reported by the patient. Homeopaths actually go into a lot more detail about the patient as a whole to diagnose their ďtypeĒ  than Psychiatry generally does to diagnose your ďdisorderĒ. Theyíre both equally Platonic (ideologically based in assuming there is an ďessenceĒ of normality that all humans should strive to be, usually based during treatment on the practitionerís own self due to the nature of doctor/patient relationship but which probably doesnít actually exist in reality, and if the tables were turned the practitioner would likely find themselves to also fit into one or more of these ďdisorderedĒ categories, any one of them with integrity hopefully DOES go see their own practitioner if only to keep their ego at bay).

Neurology really is the future of mental treatment. The more weíve come to understand the brain, the more we can drop this philosophical guesswork in regards to healing it and have a more transparent system of doing so. A lot of money will be lost in a lot of fields though, so there will probably be backlash still for quite some time to keep that kind of progress at bay and more onslaughts of propaganda to keep funneling folks (and keep convincing them to funnel their loved ones) into the offices of pseudoscientists.
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: chaotic neutral observer on October 14, 2020, 04:41:52 pm
In Merica we could have just as easily ended up with a mental health system that used the Homeopathic Constitutional Types to diagnose mental problems, if not for the oil-money backed Pharmeceutical industry largely killing the practice of Homeopathy here  (or at the very least killing the respect it still held in the early 1900s as an equally valid school of medicine).
Hardly.  Homeopathy is complete nonsense.  You don't need the pharmaceutical industry to tell you that, a class in high-school chemistry will do.

Quote
Homeopaths actually go into a lot more detail about the patient as a whole to diagnose their ďtypeĒ  than Psychiatry generally does to diagnose your ďdisorderĒ.
It doesn't matter how much effort the homeopaths put into "diagnosis", if the treatment does nothing.  Quacks have to spend more time on the sideshow, to distract from the fact that they're selling placebo as a cure-all.


Quote
Neurology really is the future of mental treatment.
Funny that antidepressants serve the function of modifying brain chemistry.  I'm not going to claim that the pharmaceutical industry is exactly a model of virtue, but things have improved since the days of trepanning and electroshock.

What do you think a neurology-based treatment for mental illness would look like?
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: Rev Thwack on October 14, 2020, 04:45:48 pm
What do you think a neurology-based treatment for mental illness would look like?

nanobots that can map out the activation of synaptic pathways during certain emotional states and then re-wire them to create a more pleasing and desired outcome?
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: Fomalhaut on October 14, 2020, 04:48:39 pm
In Merica we could have just as easily ended up with a mental health system that used the Homeopathic Constitutional Types to diagnose mental problems, if not for the oil-money backed Pharmeceutical industry largely killing the practice of Homeopathy here  (or at the very least killing the respect it still held in the early 1900s as an equally valid school of medicine).
Hardly.  Homeopathy is complete nonsense.  You don't need the pharmaceutical industry to tell you that, a class in high-school chemistry will do.

Quote
Homeopaths actually go into a lot more detail about the patient as a whole to diagnose their ďtypeĒ  than Psychiatry generally does to diagnose your ďdisorderĒ.
It doesn't matter how much effort the homeopaths put into "diagnosis", if the treatment does nothing.  Quacks have to spend more time on the sideshow, to distract from the fact that they're selling placebo as a cure-all.


Quote
Neurology really is the future of mental treatment.
Funny that antidepressants serve the function of modifying brain chemistry.  I'm not going to claim that the pharmaceutical industry is exactly a model of virtue, but things have improved since the days of trepanning and electroshock.

What do you think a neurology-based treatment for mental illness would look like?

I donít know, was more trying to say that hopefully in the future medications will work better, be less harmful, and psychiatric issues will be diagnosed in a less pseudo-scientific way, maybe using actual brain scans instead of just depending on the Doctorís subjective observations within a usually very short visit, and the patients subjective reports.  Because right now, a lot of psychiatric treatment in regards to diagnosis and medicating disorders (because it goes beyond just SSRIís) is hilariously similar to the same bullshit that Homeopathy does, just with actual psychoactive drugs as the prescribed medicine and not sugar pills.

ETA: that other guyís idea about nanobots sounds cool though.

I think you misread me in my wordiness and sarcasm and took away  that I was defending Homeopathy. I was dissing the way psychiatrists still diagnose by comparing it to the way Homeopaths diagnose, not trying to say ďHomeopathy goodĒ.

Although, yeah, in the early 1900s it was in most of The U.S still considered just as valid, but the pharma companies had the financial backing from the Rockefellers. That doesnít mean that Homeopathy isnít bullshit, either, itís just what Iíve been lead to think was historically true. People in the early 1900s didn't know what people do now. America tends to lend the most credence to the system that makes the most money or has more money backing it. Back then, killing that school had little if anything to do with enlightened intellectuals realizing Homeopathy was B.S. like we do now and trying to save people from bullshit treatments. It was about money. Again, that doesnít mean I think Homeopathy IS equally  valid, just that money is a huge motivator and people care more about money than keeping people ďsafeĒ from pseudoscientists.

You can still go pay a homeopath and see one if you want, theyíre still around, even today nobody really cares about protecting anyone from Bullshit. Also, if someone goes to one for a minor ailment and feels better due to the Placebo Effect, I donít see why we give a shit as long as nobody is getting harmed. The Placebo Effect can be amazing. It may be a tad dishonest on the doctorís part, but ultimately the patient got what they wanted which was to feel and function better. I could care less if people want to use faith healing or any of that shit to feel better, despite the fact that I donít believe in the validity of it. It triggers the  mindís ability to heal itself in some people. If we could harness that without using B.S. catalysts, that would be great, but most people canít do that (yet?).

 The doctor my husbandís family sees is both an M.D. and a certified homeopath, and certified in  Nutritional Medicine, Peptide Therapy, Stem Cell Therapy, and ďAnti-AgingĒ treatments. Heíll take everybodyís money. He gives no fucks or qualms. Heíll give you whatever whacked out treatment you want as long you put money in his pocket, and got all the professional pieces of paper necessary to do it legally. More power to him. Is he open minded and just a huge advocate for patients being able to have a lot of options, or just a really smart medical con man? I lean towards the latter mostly, but I donít know. Maybe both. He is, to the dudeís merit, apparently very honest to his patients about what should be treated only with modern medicinal practices, and what could potentially be healed by homeopathic Placebo or more experimental treatments.

Why is it so easy to see the B.S. in regards to Homeopathy but not that currently respected practices of medicine may eventually be come to seen as archaic B.S. ? That was more my point.
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: The Johnny on October 14, 2020, 05:28:21 pm
[...]
And the psychotherapies, diagnostic manual, and medication racket arenít as transparent as they should be, or as scientifically accurate as people would like to pretend or are lead to believe. So many times, Iíve asked the psychiatrists to explain the nature of how exactly these medications fix specific emotional problems and traits and gotten a big, fat, educated  ďwe really donít know the answer to that,  but there are many  studies that show positive results and millions of people use them every day.Ē
[...]
Neurology really is the future of mental treatment. The more weíve come to understand the brain, the more we can drop this philosophical guesswork in regards to healing it and have a more transparent system of doing so. A lot of money will be lost in a lot of fields though, so there will probably be backlash still for quite some time to keep that kind of progress at bay and more onslaughts of propaganda to keep funneling folks (and keep convincing them to funnel their loved ones) into the offices of pseudoscientists.

Its because psychiatry treats the superficial symptoms, with the assumption that its all organic (without getting into or having a representation of underlying causes which can be NOT organic)... meanwhile any informed psychotherapy considers that "illness" is psychosomatic, that is to say, organic function can affect psychic function, and the inverse as well, psychic function can have physical manifestations.

And well, neurology does seem to have a bright future cause its very loyal to medical advances and practice... but to says its the future for the whole field? I disagree, there's a whole side of "mental illness" that you cannot treat with surgery or medication.
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: Fomalhaut on October 14, 2020, 05:37:42 pm
[...]
And the psychotherapies, diagnostic manual, and medication racket arenít as transparent as they should be, or as scientifically accurate as people would like to pretend or are lead to believe. So many times, Iíve asked the psychiatrists to explain the nature of how exactly these medications fix specific emotional problems and traits and gotten a big, fat, educated  ďwe really donít know the answer to that,  but there are many  studies that show positive results and millions of people use them every day.Ē
[...]
Neurology really is the future of mental treatment. The more weíve come to understand the brain, the more we can drop this philosophical guesswork in regards to healing it and have a more transparent system of doing so. A lot of money will be lost in a lot of fields though, so there will probably be backlash still for quite some time to keep that kind of progress at bay and more onslaughts of propaganda to keep funneling folks (and keep convincing them to funnel their loved ones) into the offices of pseudoscientists.

Its because psychiatry treats the superficial symptoms, with the assumption that its all organic (without getting into or having a representation of underlying causes which can be NOT organic)... meanwhile any informed psychotherapy considers that "illness" is psychosomatic, that is to say, organic function can affect psychic function, and the inverse as well, psychic function can have physical manifestations.

And well, neurology does seem to have a bright future cause its very loyal to medical advances and practice... but to says its the future for the whole field? I disagree, there's a whole side of "mental illness" that you cannot treat with surgery or medication.

Yeaaah, calling neurology ďthe future of mental treatmentĒ was hyperbolic of me, and the hyperbole overshadowed the point I was attempting to make, which was just that it seems to have the potential to reshape a lot of our current practices in mental treatment and hopefully make a lot of the guesswork still remaining obsolete. But in doing so could potentially run a lot of folks monetizing off of current or pseudoscientific practices out of business, so I wouldnít be surprised if thereís  backlash towards it from those fields.
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: chaotic neutral observer on October 14, 2020, 05:50:23 pm
I think you misread me in my wordiness and sarcasm and took away  that I was defending Homeopathy. I was dissing the way psychiatrists still diagnose by comparing it to the way Homeopaths diagnose, not trying to say ďHomeopathy goodĒ.
That's fair.  I'm admittedly a bit trigger-happy where pseudo-science is concerned.

Quote
Why is it so easy to see the B.S. in regards to Homeopathy but not that currently respected practices of medicine may eventually be come to seen as archaic B.S. ? That was more my point.
Well, archaic, at any rate, but at least the outcomes of treatment are often positive.  You are free to cast any aspersions you like on the psychiatrist I saw a couple years ago, but if you think I should quit antidepressants, you'll have to pry the pill bottle from my cold dead fingers.
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: Fomalhaut on October 14, 2020, 05:56:25 pm
I think you misread me in my wordiness and sarcasm and took away  that I was defending Homeopathy. I was dissing the way psychiatrists still diagnose by comparing it to the way Homeopaths diagnose, not trying to say ďHomeopathy goodĒ.
That's fair.  I'm admittedly a bit trigger-happy where pseudo-science is concerned.

Quote
Why is it so easy to see the B.S. in regards to Homeopathy but not that currently respected practices of medicine may eventually be come to seen as archaic B.S. ? That was more my point.
Well, archaic, at any rate, but at least the outcomes of treatment are often positive.  You are free to cast any aspersions you like on the psychiatrist I saw a couple years ago, but if you think I should quit antidepressants, you'll have to pry the pill bottle from my cold dead fingers.

Yeah, Iím not one of those lunatic anti-med people that wants to take away anybodyís Prozac, or any drug that makes them feel or function better, for that matter. As long as it isnít leading to their demise or harming anyone else, then it becomes a murky ethical debate. I lost a boyfriend to Heroin overdose when I was 19, and Iím 99% certain he would rather still be here now to watch his daughter grow up than have relapsed on heroin no matter how good it made him feel in the moment. But SSRIs are pretty damn safe and even most other prescribed psych meds (antipsychotics, benzodiazepines, etc) usually cause the worst physiological issues slowly over time, so Iím more for making better meds with less side effects than people getting off of them now.

Not pro-Homeopathy either, my father in law is though, which is how I even know so much about how it supposedly ďworksĒ. Heís got books on it, I got bored and read them one day. I think it worked for him because of the Placebo Effect. Maybe he just has a particularly strong self-healing mechanism and the belief that the homeopathic remedy was doing anything triggered that. He also used to be very religious, so his capacity for belief in general is particularly strong. Both working simultaneously really did somehow make his lifelong, debilitating migraines go away. 

If it works sometimes via Placebo Effect, for minor things, for those few people left who are more willing to believe in the Healing Power of Bullshit than in the perceived safety of daily pharmaceutical use, why exactly should we care so much that we get combative and angry about it just because itís pseudoscience (beyond there being some mild dishonesty and manipulation on the Docís part, which you can still find in modern medicine all the time as well?) my whole argument is that the practice of Psychiatry hasnít caught up yet to get on so much of a high horse. The only thing real going for it is that the drugs are REAL and cause real, psychoactive affects. In SSRIís thatís usually safe, in some others it can cause more negative effects if they donít pare well with your body chemistry, and pretty much all of them other than SSRIís cause health problems over time. So thereís still room for improvement with our whole view of medicine, especially mental health treatment.

Im just an advocate for progress.

Iím not intending for any of my comments  to take away from the many positive experiences people  have had with Psychiatry, or to sound ďAnti-Psychiatry/DoctorĒ, but Iíve already said that earlier in the thread and didnít think to constantly repeat it to avoid misunderstandings. Apologies for that. I also am really wordy, sarcastic, and can be hyperbolic sometimes. Will work on that, it doesnít lend well to online discussions.
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: Fomalhaut on October 14, 2020, 09:04:13 pm
For real though, funnily enough, Iíve noticed that sometimes people whoíve been helped by Psychiatry even sound the same as the people who they perceive as ďstupidĒ Homeopathy believers when they hear criticism of it. Any criticism of the thing that helped them is taken as somehow detracting from the fact that they were/are helped by it, and triggers an internal defense mechanism. ďItís not Pseudoscience, itís REAL science, my doctor told me so, and he went to school for a long time to learn this stuff. There are studies. Itís that OTHeR ThIng thatís the fake scienceĒ on both sides

That and disordered thinking has become super prevalent, so itís hard to have a non-judgmental open discussion about anything. Maybe more people need to go through DBT as well as take whatever psychoactive/Placebo medication works best for them.

DBT: Itís not just for the Borderlines anymore!
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: chaotic neutral observer on October 14, 2020, 09:21:52 pm
I think your post was better before you amended it.  Maybe instead of repeatedly editing, if you think of something else to say, just add another post.  That's accepted etiquette on this forum.  (To the extent that we have any etiquette.)


If it works sometimes via Placebo Effect, [...] why exactly should we care so much that we get combative and angry about it just because itís pseudoscience
Pseudoscience is the systematization of false ideas.  You can't be an "advocate for progress" while giving pseudoscience a pass.

Quote
The only thing real going for it is that the drugs are REAL and cause real, psychoactive affects.
The only real thing going for it is that...it's real?  Isn't that a good thing?

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Iím not intending for any of my comments  to take away from the many positive experiences people  have had with Psychiatry, or to sound ďAnti-Psychiatry/DoctorĒ, but Iíve already said that earlier in the thread and didnít think to constantly repeat it to avoid misunderstandings.
I'm not asking you to repeat yourself, but I when I see a conversation involving Fujikoma, I scroll on by. I only dropped in because The Johnny started posting.

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I also am really wordy, sarcastic, and can be hyperbolic sometimes. Will work on that, it doesnít lend well to online discussions.
I'm fine with wordy and sarcastic.  I might misinterpret hyperbole, but now that I've been warned, it's all on me.
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: Fomalhaut on October 14, 2020, 09:26:20 pm
I think your post was better before you amended it.  Maybe instead of repeatedly editing, if you think of something else to say, just add another post.  That's accepted etiquette on this forum.  (To the extent that we have any etiquette.)


If it works sometimes via Placebo Effect, [...] why exactly should we care so much that we get combative and angry about it just because itís pseudoscience
Pseudoscience is the systematization of false ideas.  You can't be an "advocate for progress" while giving pseudoscience a pass.

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The only thing real going for it is that the drugs are REAL and cause real, psychoactive affects.
The only real thing going for it is that...it's real?  Isn't that a good thing?

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Iím not intending for any of my comments  to take away from the many positive experiences people  have had with Psychiatry, or to sound ďAnti-Psychiatry/DoctorĒ, but Iíve already said that earlier in the thread and didnít think to constantly repeat it to avoid misunderstandings.
I'm not asking you to repeat yourself, but I when I see a conversation involving Fujikoma, I scroll on by. I only dropped in because The Johnny started posting.

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I also am really wordy, sarcastic, and can be hyperbolic sometimes. Will work on that, it doesnít lend well to online discussions.
I'm fine with wordy and sarcastic.  I might misinterpret hyperbole, but now that I've been warned, it's all on me.

Not giving pseudoscience a pass, necessarily, just saying that The Placebo Effect can honestly be very powerful for some people, so if The Placebo Effect heals the odd person occasionally, why does everyone care so much beyond feeling defensive because they personally needed real psychoactive drugs and their brains couldnít do it through pure belief in the power of bullshit? It doesnít harm anybody as long as itís tried for minor, non-life threatening things.

I take psych meds and Iím just not so effing defensive about it. If somebody can heal themselves or trigger an internal healing mechanism through Belief in Bullshit, I think itís kind of cool and has interesting implications.
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: chaotic neutral observer on October 14, 2020, 09:26:32 pm
For real though, funnily enough, Iíve noticed that sometimes people whoíve been helped by Psychiatry even sound the same as the people who they perceive as ďstupidĒ Homeopathy believers when they hear criticism of it. Any criticism of the thing that helped them is taken as somehow detracting from the fact that they were/are helped by it, and triggers an internal defense mechanism. ďItís not Pseudoscience, itís REAL science, my doctor told me so, and he went to school for a long time to learn this stuff. There are studies. Itís that OTHeR ThIng thatís the fake scienceĒ on both sides

The process which led to my being prescribed antidepressants was almost entirely arbitrary, and did little to give me any confidence in the system, or in the practitioners therein.

The science underlying the development of said antidepressants, I have rather more confidence in.

I don't think the comparison with homeopathy is apt.
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: Fomalhaut on October 14, 2020, 09:34:01 pm
For real though, funnily enough, Iíve noticed that sometimes people whoíve been helped by Psychiatry even sound the same as the people who they perceive as ďstupidĒ Homeopathy believers when they hear criticism of it. Any criticism of the thing that helped them is taken as somehow detracting from the fact that they were/are helped by it, and triggers an internal defense mechanism. ďItís not Pseudoscience, itís REAL science, my doctor told me so, and he went to school for a long time to learn this stuff. There are studies. Itís that OTHeR ThIng thatís the fake scienceĒ on both sides

The process which led to my being prescribed antidepressants was almost entirely arbitrary, and did little to give me any confidence in the system, or in the practitioners therein.

The science underlying the development of said antidepressants, I have rather more confidence in.

I don't think the comparison with homeopathy is apt.

Not seeing it as an apt comparison is fair enough, and I respect your opinion and am glad that you find antidepressants helpful, and that youíre a person who thinks for themselves.
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: chaotic neutral observer on October 14, 2020, 09:36:23 pm
Not giving pseudoscience a pass ,necessarily, just saying that The Placebo Effect can honestly be very powerful for some people, so if The Placebo Effect heals the odd person occasionally, why does everyone care so much beyond feeling defensive because they personally needed real psychoactive drugs and their brains couldnít do it through pure belief in the power of bullshit? It doesnít harm anybody as long as itís tried for minor, non-life threatening things.
Those quack remedies are being used to treat life-threatening illnesses, and people have died as a result.

Do you see why lending that type of pseudoscience legitimacy, even if it's only to call it "harmless" might be a problem?
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: Fomalhaut on October 14, 2020, 09:40:11 pm
Not giving pseudoscience a pass ,necessarily, just saying that The Placebo Effect can honestly be very powerful for some people, so if The Placebo Effect heals the odd person occasionally, why does everyone care so much beyond feeling defensive because they personally needed real psychoactive drugs and their brains couldnít do it through pure belief in the power of bullshit? It doesnít harm anybody as long as itís tried for minor, non-life threatening things.
Those quack remedies are being used to treat life-threatening illnesses, and people have died as a result.

Do you see why lending that type of pseudoscience legitimacy, even if it's only to call it "harmless" might be a problem?

No, because those people are just being dumb. they either see really bad homeopaths, or are the type that would just do it themselves at home which isnít recommended in Homeopathic medicine anyway. Theyíre likely the same kind of people who would take their friendís pharmaceuticals without talking to a doctor, which can also kill you, but we donít talk about taking away pharmaceuticals because people do that (that would be stupid). Although people have also died as a result of doing that, too.

 That just makes me think there should be more homeopaths who are also M.D.s, like the one my Father in Law goes to mentioned above, who are more honest with their patients about what it can potentially be used for and when to say ďfuck thatĒ and pursue actual modern medical treatment.

Not a reason to take away the practice entirely. Continuing the practice, in a safe way, could potentially help teach us a lot more about harnessing the Placebo Effect and using our minds to heal ourselves of minor things.

Maybe it means we should give it a little more legitimacy if only  just to better make sure that people wonít do that, and that the ďremediesĒ theyíre getting are actual sugar pills with teeniest of trace amounts (not enough to actually affect the body) of whatever the fuck, and not poorly regulated, store bought poison. Although Iím skeptical as to whether the ďremediesĒ are really supposed have anything at all in them or if the homeopath just says they have trace amounts of whatever.

This conversation actually just lead me to realize that maybe is why their doctor does both, so thanks for that even though it wasnít your intention.
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: chaotic neutral observer on October 14, 2020, 10:09:53 pm
I'm replying to your post before you edited it.  Seriously, stop that.

Those quack remedies are being used to treat life-threatening illnesses, and people have died as a result.

Do you see why lending that type of pseudoscience legitimacy, even if it's only to call it "harmless" might be a problem?

No, because those people are just dumb
Seriously, if someone has been convinced that homeopathy is equivalent to modern medical care, and they die because they don't get treatment, you would call them "dumb"?

I would say they were the victim of fraud.

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and they see bad homeopaths,
How do you tell the difference between a good homeopath and a bad one?

At least with a medical doctor, I can assume that they've gone through a pretty intensive education, and if they screw up badly enough, they'll hopefully lose their license to practice.

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there should be more homeopaths like the one my FIL goes to mentioned above who are more honest with their patients  about what it can potentially do and when to say ďfuck thatĒ and pursue actual modern medical treatment.
Relying on the placebo effect in lieu of actual treatment is inherently dishonest.  There is no such thing as an honest homeopath.
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: The Johnny on October 14, 2020, 10:22:28 pm

I wanna reply when im finished with some things in a couple hours, but i wanted to chip in and say that editing posts is kind of cancerous, but whatever.
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: Fomalhaut on October 14, 2020, 10:27:49 pm

I wanna reply when im finished with some things in a couple hours, but i wanted to chip in and say that editing posts is kind of cancerous, but whatever.

I do it to add thoughts, fix, and clarify, but thereís no way to go back and see my edit history as I can tell, so Iíll stop that habit.
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: Fomalhaut on October 14, 2020, 10:30:51 pm
I'm replying to your post before you edited it.  Seriously, stop that.

Those quack remedies are being used to treat life-threatening illnesses, and people have died as a result.

Do you see why lending that type of pseudoscience legitimacy, even if it's only to call it "harmless" might be a problem?

No, because those people are just dumb
Seriously, if someone has been convinced that homeopathy is equivalent to modern medical care, and they die because they don't get treatment, you would call them "dumb"?

I would say they were the victim of fraud.

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and they see bad homeopaths,
How do you tell the difference between a good homeopath and a bad one?

At least with a medical doctor, I can assume that they've gone through a pretty intensive education, and if they screw up badly enough, they'll hopefully lose their license to practice.

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there should be more homeopaths like the one my FIL goes to mentioned above who are more honest with their patients  about what it can potentially do and when to say ďfuck thatĒ and pursue actual modern medical treatment.
Relying on the placebo effect in lieu of actual treatment is inherently dishonest.  There is no such thing as an honest homeopath.

All of your comments are ignoring the fact that I already clarified that the particular homeopath Iím familiar with is ALSO a regular medical doctor, so that would answer all of these questions. The only thing close to a ďgoodĒ one would be both, and wisely and honestly discern for their patients whether or not Placebo could potentially help them in place of chemical or invasive treatment.
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: The Johnny on October 14, 2020, 10:33:39 pm
I personally abuse the "preview" function in the posting interface, works wonders to review the formatting and re-reading oneself before posting.
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: Fomalhaut on October 14, 2020, 11:19:03 pm
The other point that was either ignored or I didnít make well was that, since these people are being rendered victims of fraud due to the lack of legitimacy, another way to look at it would be to lend it more legitimacy so that there are more doctors who are BOTH regular medical doctors and certified in Homeopathy, therefore there will be more ďgood homeopathsĒ around.

I know itís mind-blowing, but they really do apparently exist.

If we have an issue from people killing themselves trying to do Homeopathy alone still in the 21st century, rather than further attack it, which alienates those people and made them seek their own alternative to begin with, we could stop some of the stigma and reformulate how we look at this. Maybe certify more regular doctors in it for the pursuit of further studying the Placebo Effect in a wise and ethical manner and better make  sure people arenít killing themselves out of distrust for one system or another.

You donít have to agree, I already said that I respect that you personally found my original comparison between Homeopathy  and Psychiatry non-apt. Donít even really know where this is going anymore beyond cyclical arguing intended to get me to ultimately say youíre right about everything and Iím not.

Is that what you want?

Dude, youíre right. I see the light. I have been talking foolish, and whole science of Psychiatry is totally legitimate. Itís not at all even comparable to a pseudoscience. Imma start shitting all over anybody who thinks it might be, too, now. I love this Cult!
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: chaotic neutral observer on October 14, 2020, 11:25:34 pm
All of your comments are ignoring the fact that I already clarified that the particular homeopath Iím familiar with is ALSO a regular medical doctor, so that would answer all of these questions.

The existence of a homeopath who happens to have an MD doesn't obviate my questions, nor does it address my comments.  Let's review.


No, because those people are just dumb
Seriously, if someone has been convinced that homeopathy is equivalent to modern medical care, and they die because they don't get treatment, you would call them "dumb"?
Someone sees that there are MDs who are also "trained" in homeopathy, and assumes this means homeopathy is legitimate.  They go and visit a non-MD homeopath (why not? they're both certified by the homeopathy board), instead of getting real treatment, and they die.

Is this person dumb for dying just because they didn't get the memo that homeopathy is entirely useless?


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there should be more homeopaths like the one my FIL goes to mentioned above who are more honest with their patients  about what it can potentially do and when to say ďfuck thatĒ and pursue actual modern medical treatment.
Relying on the placebo effect in lieu of actual treatment is inherently dishonest.  There is no such thing as an honest homeopath.
If an MD is prescribing homeopathy, a treatment that claims to have curative properties, but has none, then that MD is acting unethically.  A non-MD homeopath may, in fact, even believe in the treatment, but an MD is in the position of either believing in it (which indicates incompetence) or not believing in it, and falsely representing it to the patient (dishonesty).  An MD who only prescribes homeopathy for minor ailments may be doing no direct harm, but legitimizing fake cures is harmful at a systemic level.

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The only thing close to a ďgoodĒ one would be both, and wisely and honestly discern for their patients whether or not Placebo could potentially help them in place of chemical or invasive treatment.
As I implied above, an MD who prescribes homeopathy is either incompetent or a fraud.  If you want to invoke the placebo effect, homeopathy is just about the worst possible option, since it's based on a lie.  Tell the patient to eat more apples, or pomegranates, or whatever, and tell them it will improve their general health, and their minor condition should clear up in a week or so.
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: chaotic neutral observer on October 14, 2020, 11:37:03 pm
The other point that was either ignored or I didnít make well was that, since these people are being rendered victims of fraud due to the lack of legitimacy, another way to look at it would be to lend it more legitimacy so that there are more doctors who are BOTH regular medical doctors and certified in Homeopathy, therefore there will be more ďgood homeopathsĒ around.
No competent, ethical MD would touch that garbage.  There is no benefit to legitimatizing homeopathy.

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I know itís mind-blowing, but they really do apparently exist.
It's not mind-blowing.  I was wondering if it was possible for a homeopath to lose their license, and the first thing google showed me was an MD that lost their medical license for practicing homeopathy.  https://quackwatch.org/homeopathy/reg/metzler/

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If we have an issue from people killing themselves trying to do Homeopathy alone still in the 21st century, rather than further attack it, which alienates those people and made them seek their own alternative to begin with, we could stop some of the stigma and reformulate how we look at this.
I hadn't heard that people were killing themselves with self-service homeopathy.  I mean, how would you even do that?  Water overdose?

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Maybe certify more regular doctors in it for the pursuit of further studying the Placebo Effect in a wise and ethical manner and better make  sure people arenít killing themselves out of distrust for one system or another.
How is wasting an MDs time certifying in quackery useful?  They've got enough real continuing education to deal with.

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You donít have to agree, I already said that I respect that you personally found my original comparison between Homeopathy  and Psychiatry non-apt. Donít even really know where this is going anymore beyond cyclical arguing intended to get me to ultimately say youíre right about everything and Iím not.

Is that what you want?
No.  It's not enough for you to say I'm right.  You have to show evidence of thought.

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Dude, youíre right. I see the light. I have been talking foolish, and whole science of Psychiatry is totally legitimate.
I haven't made that claim.  If you are seriously making that claim, I'll attack that, too.
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: Fomalhaut on October 14, 2020, 11:38:17 pm
I better love this cult too, ďGodĒ knows itís brought me enough financial ruin and social alienation that Iím much better off loving it than questioning it.

Sorry, gotta get to my mental health meeting, itís the only kind of in-person social interaction I have anymore since my fall from ďnormalĒ to  ďboxed and labeled, subhuman failureĒ in our increasingly homogenous society.

At least my meds keep me from feeling the real brunt of the pain from it all.

My apologies again for even deigning to have thoughts that did not fit The Holy Narrative.
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: Fomalhaut on October 14, 2020, 11:43:24 pm
You right, the Placebo Effect is horrible and dangerous, why would we ever want to figure out why it works or how to harness it? Man, forgive me, Iím just so stupid and crazy. What I was thinking coming in here and bothering you nice, enlightened folks with all this shit.
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: Fomalhaut on October 14, 2020, 11:46:37 pm
*What was I thinking. See, Iím so stupid and crazy that I mistype stuff sometimes. Which is why I was editing my posts, I should have just kept them there so you guys could rightfully judge me as the idiot I am for not having perfectly on-point grammar and cognitive ability despite all these psych meds.
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: chaotic neutral observer on October 14, 2020, 11:49:06 pm
You right, the Placebo Effect is horrible and dangerous, why would we ever want to figure out why it works or how to harness it?
I didn't say the placebo effect was dangerous.  If you actually read my second-to-last post, I suggested a mechanism by which it could (maybe) be invoked beneficially.  I'm not sure why you might think that homeopathic treatments have a monopoly on the placebo effect.

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Man, forgive me, Iím just so stupid and crazy. What I was thinking coming in here and bothering you nice, enlightened folks with all this shit.
No worries, this is the most fun I've had here all week.
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: chaotic neutral observer on October 14, 2020, 11:50:20 pm
I personally abuse the "preview" function in the posting interface, works wonders to review the formatting and re-reading oneself before posting.
Yeah, me too.
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: Fomalhaut on October 14, 2020, 11:55:38 pm
You right, the Placebo Effect is horrible and dangerous, why would we ever want to figure out why it works or how to harness it?
I didn't say the placebo effect was dangerous.  If you actually read my second-to-last post, I suggested a mechanism by which it could (maybe) be invoked beneficially.  I'm not sure why you might think that homeopathic treatments have a monopoly on the placebo effect.

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Man, forgive me, Iím just so stupid and crazy. What I was thinking coming in here and bothering you nice, enlightened folks with all this shit.
No worries, this is the most fun I've had here all week.

In actuality I really do have stuff to do, and Iím  too tired to read your posts anymore. Glad to hear that you had fun though! I found it fun too, even if you didnít intend for me to.
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: Fomalhaut on October 15, 2020, 12:51:38 am
Will just add though, I do agree that Homeopathy doesnít have a monopoly on the Placebo Effect.

 Maybe I was making it sound like I thought that, but no, thatís just how I think it ďworksĒ if it ever does ďworkĒ.  But certainly, if people are hell bent on having Homeopathy thrown out entirely, they can go right ahead.

I donít believe in the stuff to defend it that much, Iím just also not butthurt that people have healed themselves with it via Placebo Effect enough to shit all over them and their perceived experience because their experience doesnít match what I think to be true and possible. People accidentally kill themselves all the time doing dumb shit, including taking other peopleís pharmaceutical drugs. Doctors kill people all the time making medical mistakes. I hope someday we can eradicate all avoidable deaths. If phasing out the practice of Homeopathy is a step in that direction because more people are convinced it does more harm than good, then fine by me.

Using it to potentially study The Placebo Effect in non-life threatening circumstances  was just the only possible reason I could come up with on the fly to not throw it out entirely.
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: The Johnny on October 15, 2020, 01:02:13 am
Regardless of my prediction that there will be sooner or later an "UNLIMITED" thread, here's what i think from what i read since my last post in this thread:

*CNO: im not much for "results oriented thinking", but im glad antidepressants benefitted you even if it was by random chance and sheer luck in the diagnosis... also, i do agree that making any kind of comparison between placebos and psychiatric medication is just silly... just because they are prescribed compulsively and without good reason, doesnt mean they dont have a real and objective effect on brain chemistry... the question of if your condition was purely organical or psychical could currently be irrelevant to you as a patient, but to me as a practitioner would be of interest, even if its already "cured", but i dont think either of us wants to get into that.

*Fomalhaut: ive dealt with psychiatric communities, and yeah, grand majority of them get obese and "sleepy" all the time due to the secondary effects of the medication... liver problems, i think sometimes diabetes and who knows what else... so indeed theres a problem with that, but its also true that as time passes, its getting better with less destructive side effects.

*In general:

-While psychiatry is a pseudoscience in its diagnosis, the medication they peddle in itself is a product of a very rigurous and scientific process with precise doses... medication is a precise tool which unfortunately gets wrongfully utilized.

-One problem with homeopathy, is that as far as im informed, the literal unregulated TRASH they peddle does not follow a precise and scientific manufacturing process, that is to say, the milligrams of substances present in a given dose of whatever, have extreme variance, thats some of the reasons people die from it.

-So besides the unregulated remedies of homeopathy, the issue of placebos is an entirely different subject, because a placebo is defined by having literally no active substances, and working purely by "suggestion" (or as sometimes its called "deception").

-The thing with suggestion is that it implies many more things than its generally thought of, and its the direct successor of hypnotic practice, and while CNO just sees it as fraudulent and unethical, i see it as something more than that.

(continued in next post, just in case my browser dies or refreshes for some random reason)
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: The Johnny on October 15, 2020, 01:32:37 am

As i was saying, placebo comes under the category of suggestion, which is the successor to hypnosis... is it fraudulent and unethical? Yes and no... this type of "cure" or "treatment" only exists because people DEMAND an organic explanation or medicational solution to their psychic problems.

"Doctor! I have this migraine, paralysis or twitch that I have seen over two dozen medical specialists and all of them cannot find a physiological reason for it! They tell me im in perfect health and that i must be either crazy or simulating! Since OBVIOUSLY im not crazy nor simulating, i will continue on my quest for the holy grail - which coincidentally i found with a homeopath!"

I have collegues that are medical doctors, and they have a certain subset of patients that are not exactly hypochondriacs, but similar to them, and they wont ever stop complaining about their imaginary illness... so these patients either accept a referral to psychotherapy, or get prescribed a placebo. That is to say, they either manage to accept they have a psychological problem, or get treated like children with a magical pill.

Now, the real problem with all suggestion based treatments, be it placebo pills, hypnosis and possibly DBT, is that the patient becomes dependant on the practitioner and submissive to its authority and judgement... they get "cured" for a couple of months, but they always come back, because their "physical illness" is just a displacement of their "mental illness".

But you see, there's people that either have zero capacity for introspection, or combatively refuse to have insight... for such cases is it such a crime to treat them with placebos if thats what they so desperately desire?
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: Fomalhaut on October 15, 2020, 02:01:01 am
I like your posts, Johnny. Theyíre very insightful. I like CNOís posts too, they made me think more about stuff. Sorry if neither of you guys like my posts. I really was only slightly kidding when I said meds have made my cognitive abilities worse, but I actually am diagnosed a flavor of  ďcrazyĒ and need the real, psychoactive ones.

Editing ONLY to add: also have a slowly healing TBI, it can make conversations even in real life hard, I have memory problems due to them, hence the constant adding of ideas I forgot to put, and my impulse control sometimes just isnít what it used to be (already not the best, being in my early 20ís) in regards to things like posting before previewing.

Personally donít see whatís so wrong and unethical about doctors using the ďmagical pillĒ for those patients.  Can ultimately see now why straight up having them use the Homeopathic version of a magical pill isnít necessary for that, and could do more harm than good rather than be totally neutral.

 I donít see how itís so harmfully unethical if it works for some, since a lot psych meds do have a lot of harmful side effects (excluding SSRIs alone), so if some peopleís issues can be fixed with Placebo, thatís neat for them. It reminds me of telling yourself a glass of milk will get you out of a bad acid trip and make your trip better, and it working, they just really want a doctor to give them the glass of milk and the milk to be a pill for some reason.
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: Fomalhaut on October 15, 2020, 02:57:14 am
If people are considered by the children with their magical pills taking up medical time and resources, one thing they could try instead of plunging them into potentially harmful psychoactive drug treatment so long as they continue to not harm themselves or others, is attempt to teach them that thatís what theyíre doing, so they can then get out of their proverbial bad trips by themselves, using a glass of milk or whatever they want. If their belief that itís the pill is that troublesome.

In the event that they do anything harmful to themselves or others, we already have shit tons of mechanics to make sure people end up locked up against their will and force fed the psych meds. Happens all the time. Other people go in voluntarily all the time.

Just like Homeopathy doesnít have a monopoly on the Placebo Effect , Psychiatry doesnít have a (complete) monopoly on Mental Health, and I personally think thatís a good thing for now since most of the meds slowly kill people and plenty of people who believe in the ďmagic pillsĒ  arenít hurting anybody,  but other people are free to disagree with me, I donít care.
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: Fomalhaut on October 15, 2020, 02:57:52 am
*concerned by the children with their magic pills, damnit.
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: chaotic neutral observer on October 15, 2020, 04:56:06 am
*CNO: im not much for "results oriented thinking",[...]... the question of if your condition was purely organical or psychical could currently be irrelevant to you as a patient, but to me as a practitioner would be of interest, even if its already "cured", but i dont think either of us wants to get into that.
I suspect my issues are fundamentally organic, although of course I don't have conclusive evidence for this.  I would much prefer it if they had traced it down to a specific root cause, rather than simply giving my condition a label, and nodding sagely once the SSRIs cut in, but the mental health system has limited resources, and the science may simply not exist yet.

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-One problem with homeopathy, is that as far as im informed, the literal unregulated TRASH they peddle does not follow a precise and scientific manufacturing process, that is to say, the milligrams of substances present in a given dose of whatever, have extreme variance, thats some of the reasons people die from it.

-So besides the unregulated remedies of homeopathy, the issue of placebos is an entirely different subject, because a placebo is defined by having literally no active substances, and working purely by "suggestion" (or as sometimes its called "deception").
As I understand it, homeopathic solutions are, by nature, diluted to the point where there is no (or almost no) active ingredient present, so I consider them to be effectively placebos, albeit coated with a very heavy layer of pseudoscience.


As i was saying, placebo comes under the category of suggestion, which is the successor to hypnosis... is it fraudulent and unethical? Yes and no... this type of "cure" or "treatment" only exists because people DEMAND an organic explanation or medicational solution to their psychic problems.

[...]

I have collegues that are medical doctors, and they have a certain subset of patients that are not exactly hypochondriacs, but similar to them, and they wont ever stop complaining about their imaginary illness... so these patients either accept a referral to psychotherapy, or get prescribed a placebo. That is to say, they either manage to accept they have a psychological problem, or get treated like children with a magical pill.
This seems like a grey area.  Presenting someone with fake cures for real problems (like homeopathy does), I obviously object to.  But, if someone isn't genuinely ill, and prescribing them a placebo alleviates the symptoms of their hypochondria...well, it's not an ideal solution, but I can't easily dismiss it as unethical.  It depends on the context.  There is a certain symmetry to treating fake ailments with fake medicines.
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: Doktor Howl on October 15, 2020, 12:41:48 pm
Homeopathy is just magical thinking.

If you're sick, that's dangerous.

That's all.
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: The Johnny on October 15, 2020, 02:45:41 pm
*CNO: im not much for "results oriented thinking",[...]... the question of if your condition was purely organical or psychical could currently be irrelevant to you as a patient, but to me as a practitioner would be of interest, even if its already "cured", but i dont think either of us wants to get into that.
I suspect my issues are fundamentally organic, although of course I don't have conclusive evidence for this.  I would much prefer it if they had traced it down to a specific root cause, rather than simply giving my condition a label, and nodding sagely once the SSRIs cut in, but the mental health system has limited resources, and the science may simply not exist yet.

Quote
-One problem with homeopathy, is that as far as im informed, the literal unregulated TRASH they peddle does not follow a precise and scientific manufacturing process, that is to say, the milligrams of substances present in a given dose of whatever, have extreme variance, thats some of the reasons people die from it.

-So besides the unregulated remedies of homeopathy, the issue of placebos is an entirely different subject, because a placebo is defined by having literally no active substances, and working purely by "suggestion" (or as sometimes its called "deception").
As I understand it, homeopathic solutions are, by nature, diluted to the point where there is no (or almost no) active ingredient present, so I consider them to be effectively placebos, albeit coated with a very heavy layer of pseudoscience.


As i was saying, placebo comes under the category of suggestion, which is the successor to hypnosis... is it fraudulent and unethical? Yes and no... this type of "cure" or "treatment" only exists because people DEMAND an organic explanation or medicational solution to their psychic problems.

[...]

I have collegues that are medical doctors, and they have a certain subset of patients that are not exactly hypochondriacs, but similar to them, and they wont ever stop complaining about their imaginary illness... so these patients either accept a referral to psychotherapy, or get prescribed a placebo. That is to say, they either manage to accept they have a psychological problem, or get treated like children with a magical pill.
This seems like a grey area.  Presenting someone with fake cures for real problems (like homeopathy does), I obviously object to.  But, if someone isn't genuinely ill, and prescribing them a placebo alleviates the symptoms of their hypochondria...well, it's not an ideal solution, but I can't easily dismiss it as unethical.  It depends on the context.  There is a certain symmetry to treating fake ailments with fake medicines.

Eh, i mean, Bach Flowers are the archetypical homeopathic treatment which is just brandy, water and ground up flowers, which is practically impossible to get harm from them... the problem is that some homeopaths wanna play "undeducated witch" and create herbal remedies with plants that actually have active ingredients, and since they dont have a strict manufacturing process, the dosage is always fucked... thats why i say that homeopaths peddle not only placebos. Maybe its a latin phenomena where homeopaths are also almost always part shaman-wannabes.

From my perspective theres no "fake ailments/illness", its just a matter of bad diagnosis: what you might call a "fake physiological illness" i would call it a "real mental illness"... that these people are dead set on getting their real mental illness treated thru physiological solutions, just speaks of their stubborness and the magnitude of their mental illness.

And well, so called "depression", hallucinations and a range of ailments with physiological manifestations are just symptoms for which the root cause can be wildly different... but a lot of people dont care about root causes and want to just get by and "hopefully it will go away eventually" or "this is good enough" attitude... a lot of people are stuck (or feel like they are) in bad life situations, and if they feel like theyre impossibly stuck then they just want remedies without rubbing their noses against something they cannot change... when people want to change their situation, and can do it, thats when introspection into inner conflict can be beneficial.

Dealing with trauma is a bit different, because thats like going to the gym - it takes actual emotional work to grind down the effect that those memories have on us, and well, a lot of people dont want to allocate resources on that or have different priorities.
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: Fomalhaut on October 15, 2020, 03:50:05 pm
Im just gonna be annoying and make one more post in a different sort of vein :


If you are reading this thread and suffer from PTSD/Trauma (my flavor of crazy),  try looking into EFT. It feels silly to do at first but can help, works similarly to acupuncture without the needles (or so the people who developed it say, I donít personally know a lot about the science behind it, just am using it)

Also EMDR, if you can afford it or find a therapist that works on a sliding scale and need a therapistsí help working through some of the more intense shit.

And Iíve personally had some success with using NLP Trauma techniques (yeah, another thing thatís considered pseudoscience, Iím not a commercial for it, just tried some of their Trauma Healing mind tricks, and noticed it was helpful for me.)

ETA: OBVIOUSLY talk to your doctor or therapist before doing anything that you are concerned may make things worse, and donít get off of your SSRIs and sedatives without talking to them. They will probably be familiar with all those things, my doctor  wasnít even against the NLP despite its dodgy ďscientificĒ status, but did warn me  that itís not a gentle approach. The techniques Iíve tried basically amount to forcing your mind repeatedly to conjure up another memory when faced with triggering stimuli, so that the stimuli becomes associated with the new, happier memory rather than the old, intrusive, traumatic one.. It is difficult, and helps to have a buddy or actual NLP practitioner do it with you to ingrain the technique, but technically it can be done alone at home, for triggers that donít precede harmful behaviors but just bad feelings. I dont know, helped me to get over some triggers so far. You obviously have to know what your triggers are before trying it. Okay, I fucked up and edited again, so Iím gonna fuck off now.
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: The Johnny on October 15, 2020, 05:18:13 pm

That's just an attempt at displacing and repressing traumatic memories/representations without actually treating them, but Į\_(ツ)_/Į
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: Fomalhaut on October 15, 2020, 05:28:25 pm

That's just an attempt at displacing and repressing traumatic memories/representations without actually treating them, but Į\_(ツ)_/Į

Like  I said, Iíve just found it helpful for some tiggers. My doctor saw nothing wrong with it, and itís helped me to just live my life in a calmer fashion. Like not getting upset at seeing bloody violence on TV at other peopleís homes. I changed it from triggering a memory of  seeing real life bloody violence to reminding me of a different memory of just watching TV about something else. Who the fuck does that hurt? If people donít like it, no one will ever force them to do it. But some of us with issues just want to be able to live our lives more in peace for now and But I get it, every attempt to share something Iíve found personally helpful is stupid, I was stupid to join this forum, I will leave you all to your stuff that you do here.

You may think thereís a quick fix that every single person can do to automatically ďtreatĒ traumatic memories, but I have never met a doctor so far that thought that. Forgive me.
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: chaotic neutral observer on October 15, 2020, 05:46:20 pm
If you are reading this thread and suffer from PTSD/Trauma (my flavor of crazy),  try looking into EFT. It feels silly to do at first but can help, works similarly to acupuncture without the needles (or so the people who developed it say, I donít personally know a lot about the science behind it, just am using it)
Acupuncture is just as much nonsense as homeopathy.  The difference is that it's older (which gives it a veneer of respectability), and originates in the far-east (which makes it mystical).

It seems like you're doing a lot of things that are founded in woo.  Maybe they make you feel better temporarily, but are they actually fixing anything?
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: The Johnny on October 15, 2020, 05:48:05 pm
I never said a quick fix existed, but if were not being civil about it, by all means try to find a cure in pseudoscience, nobody cares.

And i mean, if you want us to just nod our heads without giving our own thoughts on the matter, i think you got the wrong place. This is not a "safe-space", some say "Discordia is not nice", so do whatever. Welcome to my ever growing ignore list.
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: Fomalhaut on October 15, 2020, 05:51:17 pm
I realize Iíve embarrassed myself by trying to join in on this forum and hope that you all enjoyed being condescending intellectuals at a traumatized young womanís expense. Iím sorry that I try to keep an open mind and am open to things that help after years of pain and torment, and sorry that I try to be nonjudgmental and friendly after it all, so maybe I really donít fit in with Discordians. Sorry that I thought maybe Iíd be anything close to like minded with people here because of the dumb books Iíve read. Iím just lonely and want to be helpful and have intellectually stimulating conversations with people but I, obviously canít hack it with you guys.

Stupid me for trying. 

I wish all of you the best in life.
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: The Johnny on October 15, 2020, 05:52:59 pm
Ah yes, and one more thing, who has the audacity of accussing others of suggesting "quick and easy fixes" when they think that tapping their forehead and thinking happy thoughts is a solution to ANYTHING.
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: Fomalhaut on October 15, 2020, 05:54:23 pm
Just to answer CNO before signing off for good, it seems to have helped in my actual life, with functioning better and feeling better. I donít have many of the issues I had years ago. So if thatís ďfixingĒ, then yeah, it has fixed some stuff. Obviously Iím not perfect yet, but is anybody?

But I wonít try to recommend any of or anything it to anyone, anymore.

Keep my woo and my thoughts to myself.
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: Fomalhaut on October 15, 2020, 06:10:30 pm
Maybe the stuff helped just by replacing more harmful habits and thought patterns with less harmful ones. I donít know. I feel really stupid, and am really stupid. Iíve embarrassed myself and thereís no way to delete these accounts that I can find so I hope at least people can use my posts for a laugh at my expense.
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: chaotic neutral observer on October 15, 2020, 06:13:17 pm
I realize Iíve embarrassed myself by trying to join in on this forum and hope that you all enjoyed being condescending intellectuals at a traumatized young womanís expense.
Having issues in your personal life does not grant you immunity from being called on your passive-aggressive bullshit.

Frankly, I already decided you were likely a pretty nasty person when you blamed the victims of fraudsters for dying.

Quote
Iím just lonely and want to be helpful and have intellectually stimulating conversations with people but I, obviously canít hack it with you guys.
You want to be stimulated intellectually, but don't want to be told when you're wrong about something?  That's not how it works.

Quote
I wish all of you the best in life.
You keep threatening to leave, yet you continue posting.  Do you expect someone to beg you to stay?
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: Fomalhaut on October 15, 2020, 06:21:01 pm
No, I donít. I just feel bad and wish I could fix things but nothing I say is good enough, maybe because I can be nasty, horrible person. Iíll try to be a better person in general.

It isnít their fault for dying, calling them dumb was harsh of me. I donít think of being dumb as something that is someoneís fault. Iím dumb too, and if I died I donít expect anybody to care. But thatís just me and I am wrong for ever projecting that attitude into others in ways like that.

I also said that I hope we can get to a point where all preventable deaths are avoided, but that statement didnít matter.

I donít want people to die.

I donít expect anything but cruelty from basically anybody I meet or speak to anymore.
I can probably be too defensive sometimes and that comes across as passive aggressive bullshit, and probably is.

I try my best to be a good person. I have a lot of flaws. And generally keep to myself to work on them. Iím just sorry.
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: Doktor Howl on October 15, 2020, 09:25:58 pm

Eh, i mean, Bach Flowers are the archetypical homeopathic treatment which is just brandy, water and ground up flowers, which is practically impossible to get harm from them... the problem is that some homeopaths wanna play "undeducated witch" and create herbal remedies with plants that actually have active ingredients, and since they dont have a strict manufacturing process, the dosage is always fucked... thats why i say that homeopaths peddle not only placebos. Maybe its a latin phenomena where homeopaths are also almost always part shaman-wannabes.


Did you see Pillow Guy pushing OLEANDER for Covid 19?

I mean okay, if you eat oleander, I promise you that you won't die from Covid 19.
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: Doktor Howl on October 15, 2020, 09:27:01 pm
Just to answer CNO before signing off for good,

In my day, people could argue and yell their heads off on the internet and get REALLY mad and then quit and be back the next day.

Now kids wanna quit for real. 
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: Doktor Howl on October 15, 2020, 09:31:04 pm
No, because those people are just being dumb. they either see really bad homeopaths, or are the type that would just do it themselves at home which isnít recommended in Homeopathic medicine anyway.

Well.

This is why Discordia is Not Nice at All.
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: The Johnny on October 15, 2020, 10:07:31 pm

Eh, i mean, Bach Flowers are the archetypical homeopathic treatment which is just brandy, water and ground up flowers, which is practically impossible to get harm from them... the problem is that some homeopaths wanna play "undeducated witch" and create herbal remedies with plants that actually have active ingredients, and since they dont have a strict manufacturing process, the dosage is always fucked... thats why i say that homeopaths peddle not only placebos. Maybe its a latin phenomena where homeopaths are also almost always part shaman-wannabes.


Did you see Pillow Guy pushing OLEANDER for Covid 19?

I mean okay, if you eat oleander, I promise you that you won't die from Covid 19.

I hadnt, but now i have:

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/08/27/opinions/oleandrin-unproven-drug-covid-mypillow-sepkowitz/index.html

Its kind of funny, so much effort and resources spent on trying to find therapeutic uses of what for all purposes is rat poison.
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: Fujikoma on October 16, 2020, 04:30:10 am
What the fuck did you all do? I was hoping to hook up for a weekend fling and you done fucked the dog. Oh well. I can find other dogs. That said, why does everyone want to jump on this person? Oh right, because of the toxicity present here that never leaves. Ok, you do that, I'll fart.
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: Cain on October 16, 2020, 11:46:40 am
What the fuck did you all do? I was hoping to hook up for a weekend fling and you done fucked the dog. Oh well. I can find other dogs. That said, why does everyone want to jump on this person? Oh right, because of the toxicity present here that never leaves. Ok, you do that, I'll fart.

 :notnice:
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: TheAudience on October 16, 2020, 12:51:32 pm
Well, that was fun to watch.
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: The Johnny on October 16, 2020, 03:06:37 pm
What the fuck did you all do? I was hoping to hook up for a weekend fling and you done fucked the dog. Oh well. I can find other dogs. That said, why does everyone want to jump on this person? Oh right, because of the toxicity present here that never leaves. Ok, you do that, I'll fart.

Yes were horrible toxic people, because this is 2020's Mental Illness Olympics, and the winners get a free pass on giving life-threatening advice with the bonus of having zero accountability for their shit behaviour.
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: The Johnny on October 16, 2020, 03:07:09 pm

Also, i self nominate that for newsfeed.
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: LMNO on October 16, 2020, 03:16:23 pm
Seconded.
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: Doktor Howl on October 16, 2020, 05:15:21 pm

Eh, i mean, Bach Flowers are the archetypical homeopathic treatment which is just brandy, water and ground up flowers, which is practically impossible to get harm from them... the problem is that some homeopaths wanna play "undeducated witch" and create herbal remedies with plants that actually have active ingredients, and since they dont have a strict manufacturing process, the dosage is always fucked... thats why i say that homeopaths peddle not only placebos. Maybe its a latin phenomena where homeopaths are also almost always part shaman-wannabes.


Did you see Pillow Guy pushing OLEANDER for Covid 19?

I mean okay, if you eat oleander, I promise you that you won't die from Covid 19.

I hadnt, but now i have:

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/08/27/opinions/oleandrin-unproven-drug-covid-mypillow-sepkowitz/index.html

Its kind of funny, so much effort and resources spent on trying to find therapeutic uses of what for all purposes is rat poison.

In 2006, they planted oleanders next to the giraffe enclosure at the Tucson zoo.

Sent to Africa for more giraffes.

In 2012, they did it again.  Fortunately, it was caught before the plants reached above the top of the enclosure.
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: Doktor Howl on October 16, 2020, 05:18:22 pm
Seconded.

Done.
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: Doktor Howl on October 16, 2020, 05:20:22 pm
What the fuck did you all do? I was hoping to hook up for a weekend fling and you done fucked the dog. Oh well. I can find other dogs. That said, why does everyone want to jump on this person? Oh right, because of the toxicity present here that never leaves. Ok, you do that, I'll fart.

Saying "homeopathy" with a straight face gets a beating.

It's tradition.
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: Fujikoma on October 16, 2020, 11:33:16 pm
I see. Well far be it for me to tell you folks how to run things or to ignore tradition. Back to lurking.
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: The Johnny on October 17, 2020, 01:32:30 am

On second thought, next rape victim that comes for treatment, i'll serve them Datura tea, boop their nose and ears repeatedly while telling them to think of puppies instead of "bad things", and tell them that "some feelings and behaviors are maladaptive, and showing them better alternatives" as DBT technique dictates.

BTW:

Quote
DBT strives to have the patient view the therapist as an ally rather than an adversary in the treatment of psychological issues.
[...]
Linehan and others combined a commitment to the core conditions of acceptance and change through the principle of dialectics (in which thesis and antithesis are synthesized) and assembled an array of skills for emotional self-regulation drawn from Western psychological traditions, such as cognitive behavioral therapy and an interpersonal variant, "assertiveness training", and contemplative meditative traditions, such as mindfulness meditation. One of her contributions was to alter the adversarial nature of the therapist-client relationship in favor of an alliance based on intersubjective tough love.

Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: altered on October 18, 2020, 12:28:20 pm
What's sad is this thread will never be good for the Peanut Gallery, because its not just one chucklefuck becoming an infuriated moron in public, it's several, and they quit too fast to get any real joy out of. It's too small of game to truly reach the heights of idiocy we crave. We need someone with /staying power/, someone fit to fill page after page with lunatic raving idiocy and too stupid to recognize when they're in over their damn head and should bail fast. No more mere flirtations with woo, we need a grade A dipshit whose approach to online discussion is to Demand You Admit They Are Right, Or Else They'll Tell You How They Are Right, Again. :lulz: If only Fujikoma didn't flop out the door like a wounded tuna when I started aggressively filling his inbox with automatically generated hate, he might be worth picking on if he had the stomach. Alas... (Then again, maybe I should do it again.)

Also, I can't believe anyone would expect different responses to homeopathy from us when the Classic homeopathy thread is quarantined in our very own eternal dumbass memorial. What did you expect?
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: LMNO on October 18, 2020, 03:08:22 pm
Did we ever archive that person who pretty much TRIPLED-down on homeopathy? It was wild.
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: Fujikoma on October 18, 2020, 03:36:36 pm
Truth be told I just sent them all to my spam folder. I just realized you were that petty in trying to get your point across that any attempt at healing whatever rift had occurred would be pointless, and I may as well just enjoy the good parts of this forum, which are reading people's posts when they're not frothing at the mouth, but rather being thoughtful, creative, and witty. Apparently I was interrupting that so I was like, "Well, this is counter-productive."
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: Odibex Grallspice on October 21, 2020, 05:53:12 am
a) I was really bad-off miserable all the time before I got on meds and

b) no matter how crappy my life gets now I'm kinda OK with it

soo.. I mean, honestly my life is as bad as it could be, but I'm not suffering any distress at all. but and yet I sure wouldn't want to go under like I was before. I'm not really a common case but that's my experience.
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: Pergamos on October 22, 2020, 05:22:42 am

Quote
The only thing real going for it is that the drugs are REAL and cause real, psychoactive affects.
The only real thing going for it is that...it's real?  Isn't that a good thing?


Not necessarially, as Fomalhaut said real drugs can cause more harm than sugar pills can, if used in the wrong circumstances.
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: chaotic neutral observer on October 22, 2020, 02:22:17 pm

Quote
The only thing real going for it is that the drugs are REAL and cause real, psychoactive affects.
The only real thing going for it is that...it's real?  Isn't that a good thing?


Not necessarially, as Fomalhaut said real drugs can cause more harm than sugar pills can, if used in the wrong circumstances.

A circular saw isn't necessarially as good at cutting wood as a butter knife, since the saw makes it possible to cut the wood to the wrong length.
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: The Johnny on October 22, 2020, 03:34:53 pm

Quote
The only thing real going for it is that the drugs are REAL and cause real, psychoactive affects.
The only real thing going for it is that...it's real?  Isn't that a good thing?


Not necessarially, as Fomalhaut said real drugs can cause more harm than sugar pills can, if used in the wrong circumstances.

You mean to say that using an effective and well designed tool for the wrong purpose can be harmful? Holy shit, we need to publish this in a scientific journal and let the world know!
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: Doktor Howl on October 22, 2020, 04:01:24 pm
I have nothing useful to add to this thread.
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: Pergamos on October 25, 2020, 03:58:09 am

Quote
The only thing real going for it is that the drugs are REAL and cause real, psychoactive affects.
The only real thing going for it is that...it's real?  Isn't that a good thing?


Not necessarially, as Fomalhaut said real drugs can cause more harm than sugar pills can, if used in the wrong circumstances.

A circular saw isn't necessarially as good at cutting wood as a butter knife, since the saw makes it possible to cut the wood to the wrong length.

In the hands of an incompetent a butter knife is WAY better for cutting wood, since the incompetent is far less likely to cut their (or my) leg off.  The average Homeopathic doctor is an incompetent, are you sure the average Psychiatrist isn't also an incompetent?
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: chaotic neutral observer on October 25, 2020, 05:28:34 am

Quote
The only thing real going for it is that the drugs are REAL and cause real, psychoactive affects.
The only real thing going for it is that...it's real?  Isn't that a good thing?


Not necessarially, as Fomalhaut said real drugs can cause more harm than sugar pills can, if used in the wrong circumstances.

A circular saw isn't necessarially as good at cutting wood as a butter knife, since the saw makes it possible to cut the wood to the wrong length.

In the hands of an incompetent a butter knife is WAY better for cutting wood, since the incompetent is far less likely to cut their (or my) leg off.  The average Homeopathic doctor is an incompetent, are you sure the average Psychiatrist isn't also an incompetent?
Yes, a saw can be used for hurting yourself, as well as for cutting wood.  I could have added "or cause personal injury" to my statement without changing the import of my sarcasm.  The exact type of misuse isn't relevant, only that the possibility of misuse exists.

You appear to be claiming that something that is completely useless in the hands of anyone, regardless of their training or skill, is better than something that is designed to carry benefit, but can cause harm if misused.

Are you just trying to argue for the fun of it, or do you actually believe that nonsense?  'Cause if you have nothing intelligent to say, I'd just as soon this thread died out.



*For its intended purpose, of course.  We're talking about using a butter knife for cutting wood, not for spreading butter.
Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: The Johnny on October 25, 2020, 06:01:52 am
Honestly, this place is less dickish about it, true, but still, there are people in here with the "medication bad" viewpoint,

[snip]

Are there?

:wave: :whack:

Title: Re: Stop demonizing medication.
Post by: Doktor Howl on October 26, 2020, 03:03:45 pm


In the hands of an incompetent a butter knife is WAY better for cutting wood,

But that's wrong.  Dull blades cost lives.