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Actualy ECH, unlike others, I believe in debate. If people can rise above petty name-calling and provide rebuttals and clarifications relying on facts and rational thinking, then I'm willing to change my view on certain things.

Thanks Cain, I had forgotten those points you raised. I'm always forgetting the statue was a French thing.

What's so bad about the sig?

i once compared invading Iraq to Hitler's invading Poland, I have also compared Guantamano to a Concentration camp. People have laughed at me and called me "anti-American"

I think History will yet vindicate my comparisons.

What "Special relationship"? France only supported America to get at the British. France has always looked out for themselves and I repsect that. Sure i slag the buggers off like any other Englshmen but they hold their ground.

Back in WW1 Britain fought mostly along the Belgian border, France fought on it's own soil and fought like damned lions. WW2 was less impressive but in fairness they where not ready and got steamrollered. But when you look at how the Free French fought in north Africa and Europe you see their teeth.

France stopped supporting America when America stopped being of use to them, fair play to 'em.

Organisation.

Some people have decided that for Discordianism to succeed it has to be organised. Various debates to the level of that organisation, but that's a growing view.

Now most people who would disagree I think tend to just shut up now, get slammed for voicing an opinion otherwise.

I got that, i still remember the slamming i got for what peopel thought was "trying to ruin what they where trying to achieve".

So now I add what insights I can and keep my opinions to myself.

Hugh believes that organisation would turn Discordianism into some political/religous/fan club etc (pick whichever applies).

That's his point, in my view.

There is always a danger that organisation would lead to mobilisation and turn the whole damn thing into a runaway monster.

It's just a possibility, not saying that's what will happen so no flaming please.

Well Hugh does have a point.

However the method of presenting said point was rather rude, abrupt and as subtle as a thrown half-brick.

Which REALY doesn't do well to getting across one's feelings and the whole point tends to be lost in vitriol.

Who the hell is he talking about anyhow?

Steak and kidney is a bit rich and meat and potatoe far too common.

Good old northern meat pies, the way forward.

Amazing Discordia, how sweet the sound,
That awakened a cabbage like me....
I once was lost but now still lost,
Was blind, but now, I have contacts.

   

T'was Discordia that taught...
my heart to fear.
And Discordia, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Discordia appear...
the hour I first woke up.

   

Through many dangers, toils and snares...
we have already come.
T'was Discordia that brought us safe thus far...
and Discordia will lead us nowhere.

   

Eris has promised nothing to me...
Her word leaves me confused.
Her words my shield and it's full of holes...
as long I'm around.

   

When we've been here ten thousand years...
The world will still kinda suck.
We've no less days to fuck around...
then when we've first begun.

   

"Amazing Discordia, how sweet the sound,    
That awakened a Cabbage like me....
I once was lost but now am still lost,
Was blind, but now, I have contacts. (end)

Stand tall and face the front, there's a storm coming lads and lasses and it's gonna be hell. We are the front line, we are the back line, we are the only damn line left.

It's a fight they don't want but a fight they are gonna get. Civilisation is starting to implode, the more the guys at the top tell people what to do, what they can or can't say the more folks rebell and it all get's fucked up.

But it's working both ways, the idiots rebelling against it all are just the same as the bloody fools they are rebelling against. They tell their folks the opposite to the other side but it's still telling people what to believe.

Nobody ever started a revolution and changed anything, they just replaced one system with another and a few generations down the line the same thing happens all over again. Each system and extension of the one that went before it.

So where do we stand? Right in the bloody middle, stuck between the extremes with a message nobody wants to hear. We go to the sheep and we tell 'em to be Wolves. Get a life and think things through, if your gonan run in a apck then make sure everybody knows what they are doinga dn do it because they choose to. But they just get themselves into herds and follow the first shepard ina  grey suit that comes along. They think painting their wool makes them different, but shear it off and you get nowt but dinner for the shepards.

There's a line been drawn and a trench dug along it. You've got a few brave souls hunkered down and waiting for the shit to hit the fan. Hell none of them realy agree with each other, some don't even like each other. They have sat around the planning table and argued over the strategy, they have pinned cute flags to wall charts and made bold statements of intent.

But in the end it comes to this my friends, a bunch of poor bastards in a trench with nowhere left to go. It's gonna get hairy, gonna get brutal and hell your gonna have to take the bastards at the point of a bayonet sometimes. We are going to lose friends along the way, disillusioned folks falling by the wayside. People don't want to hear what we have to say, they don't want to do the hard thing, just the easiest thing.

We are trying to do the hardest thing. We are not trying to get people to follow us, we are not trying to install a new and better system mark II. We are trying to get people to make a choice, we are trying to get people to take responsibility, we are trying to get people to think.

So stand to, unfurl the banners and start the marching band. There's a war to fight and a war to win, a war of words and a war of ideals.

To rip off the speech of a famous bloke:

"When you put your hand in a pile of mush that used to be some cabbage's belief system, you'll know what to do."

Reading cain's post on Eris and reading BMW's post on reverse brainwashing i had a thought. Why don't we use Christianity's most succesful tool against them?

What am i blabbing about? Let me describe the process.

"Believe in the power of Jesus or you will burn in hell!"

Popular Christian party line and a succesful one. Read the bible and try to find the fire and brimstone pit of hell. You won't, why?

Hell originates with the Greeks and their concept of Hades which was then swiped by the Romans. The Roman cult was Christianity's chief enemy in the old days, persecuting them and feeding them to household pets (Lions, tigers, wolves etc).

The Roman faith is heavy on the Gods fucking over Humanity. Funny, kinda reminds me of allot of the old testament stuff.... I wonder why....

To get Romans to convert the Christians changed a hell of allot about their religion and adapted it to the Roman worldview. They lost allot of the peace and love stuff but it stopped them getting cut up into kitty-treats and scooby-snacks.

Roll forward a few centuries to Saxon England. Christians converted the Pagan Saxons pretty well, again by adapting Christianity. a little known example si the ponds and lakes, such sites where Holy to the Saxons, a hold over perhaps from the previous Celts. Each holy site had an attendant spirit to protect it. Chrisians got rid of the spirits but said "yes this is holy and Saint *insert name here* watches over it in heaven". seeing the pattern?

Then came the Norse whose recreational activities included raping Christian women, murdering christian men and nicking their stuff.

This helped the Christians at first, they had a real bogeyman to keep the sheep in line. But raids became invasions and invasions beacme settlements. So how do the Christians convert the Norse? adaptation again!

Two concepts of Saxon Christianity: 1) Paradise, 2) Hades.

Two concepts of norse belief: 1) Valhalla, 2) Hel's hall.

In Norse religion the brave get sent to Valhalla where they fuck, drink, eat and have fun till the end of the world and they get to fight the biggest battle of all time.

Fairly easy to adapt the concept of Christian paradise with this, tap into revelations for the end of the world and they are hooked.

The dishonoured and the cowards go to Hel's hall. Hel is te Norse God of the underworld and her hall is where the poor buggers who didn't make the grade eat mouldy food, drink vinegar and forced to couple with hags.

The Christians of England dropped the hades line, adopted the term Hell and there we go, Norse Christians.

So today's Hell has nothing to do with Christianity at all. In point of fact the original Jewish concept of the opposite of Heaven was the absence of God, pure nothingness.

Now what the bloody hell am i rambling about?

Eris as Cain presented her would be a HUGE turn off for Christians. Could we re-invent her with a slant that appeals to christians?

Archangel of Discord. Giver the old cow a new outfit.

Christian teens are just as disilusioned as atheistic ones ad looking for the same things. They get brainwashed by the preachers, let's give them something they can believe in that drags them into Discordianism.

Gonna go and sleep on this.

Will eb back tomorrow with some fresh ideas, day off so I'm gonan do some trhead searching too.

Thanks again LMNO for your time and paitence.

Kinda funny when I think about it.

me and Kai-Wren are always slagginge ach other off, do it with my other mates.

Guess I didn't realise you'd actualy taken to me and what i saw as flaming was just your way of doing things.

I think maybe it's a good time for folks like me, kai-Wren and lady Godiva to show up.

We can help you "cranky old bastards" look ahead. The thing si to look at us not as noobs but as the people your looking ahead at.

We are you guinea pigs guys!

This thread LMNO has managed in the space of one evening to change how i think about you lot and this forum. I was about ready to give up, but now I see where ya coming from.

We've established some common ground and can move on. I think it's important, other noobs can come on to the forum check this thread out and either just read it or add to it.

I'm an old-fashioned Englishman. Kinda grew up around politeness, Dad was a sergeant and got trained at an early age regarding manners.

Perhaps that's one of the perception-things I need to let go of, maybe not.

I like to think it's betetr to be reasoned, polite and calm when deabting, harder for the other guy to shout you down when you respond politelry.

Works much better in person than on the net i guess.

I think the lesson for me to carry from this is to grow a thicker skin.