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Messages - Roo

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1
Apple Talk / Re: B-AI's speculative analogue TV thread.
« on: November 12, 2009, 10:35:07 pm »
I like this idea. What kind of red tape is involved in getting an amateur license? Or would having a license defeat the purpose?
check out http://forums.qrz.com/index.php. They should be able to answer all your questions.

2
:lulz: This is great!

CONSPIRACY!

Sometimes the conspiracies are real.   :)

Right. So the question is, who's behind the conspiracy theory about the vaccine being bad?

Oh, THAT theory.

That would be the GLP crowd, Alex Jones, and some Brit researcher who faked his results, some time ago.

BUT MAYBE

The bankers are behind the anti-vaccine conspiracy theory, as part of a deeper conspiracy designed to make the "masses" NOT WANT the vaccine, so they can have more for themselves and the plebes will be killed off by waves of manufactured Bird/Pig hybrid Flu.

Nono! See it's a psyops thing. They want everyone else to take it, so they're going to pretend to hoard it all for themselves, and then everyone else will want the vaccine EVEN MORE. Cuz the vaccine is gonna sterilize everyone, so all the banksters can have the world to themselves.



Or at least that how the Alex Jones listener in my house explained it.

3
because this:
and uses resources that he wouldn't have normally have access to (his employer's)

is besides the point, screwing over your employer like this is wrong but it's a different wrong, ima assume he was self-employed.
Quote
The payment to snitch isn't meant to be a regular source of income. It's meant to be an occasional thing to 'encourage' people to tell on others.

it's this. i don't get it. how does "it's meant to be an occasional thing" make it right?

is it like nicking candy from a store thing, if you did it just once when you're a kid it's a petty theft but if you keep doing it and do it a lot on a large scale you're a filthy thief?

because then even snitching once is still a deplorable petty thing to do, if not "less bad" than doing it on a large scale using your employers database, "less bad" is stil bad, and doesn't magically attain a turning point where a tiny little of a bad thing suddenly becomes a good and commendable thing to do. because the thing about good things, is that you want to be able to encourage all people to do it, whenever they get the chance. which makes it large scale again, and therefore bad.

You're right, making it "an occasional thing" doesn't make it right. Not any more than nicking candy from the store is right. But like the kid stealing the candy, we'll often turn a blind eye to the small wrongs. It's not that it's truly right, it's just perceived as 'less wrong', and therefore more acceptable. Acceptable =/= right.

Snitching violates the Golden Rule (do unto others as you would have them do unto you), and by that measure, it's wrong. Unfortunately, our society doesn't really follow the golden rule, and snitching falls into that gray area where it's wrong, but not legally wrong, unless you break the law getting the information.






4
In general, snitching is not wrong, but nobody likes a snitch.

In this case, the point where the guy went wrong is when he started doing it for personal gain, rather than society's benefit. He's using his employer's records for his own personal vendetta. He says himself that he's doing it for the money. If he weren't be paid, would he still take the time to do this? I doubt it.

Quote
There's one question I wanna ask you guys btw, see I told this story to a bunch of friends yesterday, and one of the guys didn't understand. He said well if these are wanted felons, aren't you playing judge by deciding to not help catch them? And even if there are innocent people on this list, they are on a wanted list, so if the police would find them they'd arrest them as well, and in both cases it's up to the police to handle it properly and determine whether someone is innocent or not. And I wasn't quite sure how to answer this. I mean yeah, the police makes mistakes, I don't agree with all the laws, some things shouldnt be felons, etc.
Playing judge by deciding to not help catch them? No. You aren't deciding if they're innocent or guilty. You're just not doing the cops' job for them. If anything, this guy is playing judge, by assuming that they're all guilty, and doing everything in his power to get them caught.

To me, it's not that snitching is wrong, or even that we're paying people to do it. If one person snitches on one other person, I doubt I'd even think twice. But when that person decides to make a job of it, and uses resources that he wouldn't have normally have access to (his employer's), he's abusing the system. The payment to snitch isn't meant to be a regular source of income. It's meant to be an occasional thing to 'encourage' people to tell on others.

I hope this guy gets a really good lawyer, because I think he's going to need one. He's got to be breaking some laws, using his employer's database like that. And now that it's become somewhat public knowledge, I wouldn't be surprised if some of those felons he's helped put behind bars find out and decide to take the law into their own hands, just like he did.

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....


You DO realize that a tension headache is caused by physical conditions, namely vascular flow...right? And its also important, the message being "stop whatever you are doing to make it happen or your arteries are gonna pop.".

Also, theres a religion that addresses suffering pretty well. Has some good tools for dealing with it too, if you're interested.

 :oops: bad example. Shit. okay, pain=physical. suffering=psychological. check.
 

yeah, I'm interested. PM me so we don't jack this thread.

Its not going to jack the thread.


Its called "Buddhism".

*facepalm*

Forget it. I was hoping you'd come across something I hadn't already tried and rejected.

You do realize that the only way to stop psychological suffering is to change your mind so that it doesn't become attached to or averted from anything, and is firmly fixed in reality, in the present moment. Its the *only way*. If you're looking for something easy, it doesn't exist.

Of course. But I keep an eye out for things to make it easier. Every now and again, I find something.

Make what easier?
Detachment and acceptance.

7
....


You DO realize that a tension headache is caused by physical conditions, namely vascular flow...right? And its also important, the message being "stop whatever you are doing to make it happen or your arteries are gonna pop.".

Also, theres a religion that addresses suffering pretty well. Has some good tools for dealing with it too, if you're interested.

 :oops: bad example. Shit. okay, pain=physical. suffering=psychological. check.
 

yeah, I'm interested. PM me so we don't jack this thread.

Its not going to jack the thread.


Its called "Buddhism".

*facepalm*

Forget it. I was hoping you'd come across something I hadn't already tried and rejected.

You do realize that the only way to stop psychological suffering is to change your mind so that it doesn't become attached to or averted from anything, and is firmly fixed in reality, in the present moment. Its the *only way*. If you're looking for something easy, it doesn't exist.

Of course. But I keep an eye out for things to make it easier. Every now and again, I find something.

8
....


You DO realize that a tension headache is caused by physical conditions, namely vascular flow...right? And its also important, the message being "stop whatever you are doing to make it happen or your arteries are gonna pop.".

Also, theres a religion that addresses suffering pretty well. Has some good tools for dealing with it too, if you're interested.

 :oops: bad example. Shit. okay, pain=physical. suffering=psychological. check.
 

yeah, I'm interested. PM me so we don't jack this thread.

Its not going to jack the thread.


Its called "Buddhism".

*facepalm*

Forget it. I was hoping you'd come across something I hadn't already tried and rejected.

9
But if I get a headache, it hurts. Is that not pain? Is that *only* psychological? If so, why does it feel the same as if someone hit me on the head?

Wut

I'm blaming it on the fact that I haven't had dinner yet.

10
....


You DO realize that a tension headache is caused by physical conditions, namely vascular flow...right? And its also important, the message being "stop whatever you are doing to make it happen or your arteries are gonna pop.".

Also, theres a religion that addresses suffering pretty well. Has some good tools for dealing with it too, if you're interested.

 :oops: bad example. Shit. okay, pain=physical. suffering=psychological. check.
 

yeah, I'm interested. PM me so we don't jack this thread.

11
Maybe I'm a little biased, since I enjoy getting pierced so much.  Keep that in mind.

I feel that pain and hardship breed strength.  Pain is, for one thing, integral to the true understanding of pleasure, imo.  You cant truly grasp pleasure and happiness without pain and unhappiness. 

Its like this;  by denying pain, by completely ridding ourselves of it, we would be cutting ourselves off from a fundamental part of the human experience.  From my understanding, H+ is about transcending the human condition, but I dont think you can do that by subtracting.  Rather, the goal should be addition.  Pain is a part of who and what we are, and by ridding ourselves of it I think we would be lessening ourselves.  Now, changing pain would be one thing, learning to control it so that it would still be useful, but not unbearable, that I could see as good, but removing our pain centers is as bad as removing our pleasure centers.

Through pain and pleasure we connect with our bodies.  We communicate with our bodies.  Also, I dont think there is any difference between the two.  In the words of a very wise man; "There is no such thing as pain.  There is only powerful sensation."  I dont think it possible to alter our ability to feel sensation without altering our ability to feel ALL sensation.

I might be misunderstanding what transhumanists believe, but in my understanding of the meaning of transcendence, it's moving beyond, rather than subtraction. There's no loss, in the sense of a removal, but a release, in the sense of letting go of what is no longer useful. I'll have to look into transhumanism more before I can discuss that adequately, but I'm intrigued by this concept of whether or not we can or should transcend pain and suffering. I think we can, and it's something that I'm attempting to do in my own life. More and more, I'm convinced that pain is (and should be) as controllable as pleasure. And if we can do that, I don't see why we can't choose to move beyond it. Moreover, it may be required that we transcend pain and suffering in order to continue developing and evolving as a species. Our senses give us the world, but in a very limited fashion. We can only take in so much, before those senses become overwhelmed with input. Perhaps transcending pain would allow us to take in more input, and we would be able to sense much more than we can now.

@ Kai- I've never had the privilege of meeting someone like that, but I can understand how pain is important for us physiologically. Yet even those who can't feel pain in part or all of their body can learn to adapt. We also don't need to experience pain repeatedly to know that something will be painful. Still, not all pain is physical, and there is mounting evidence that our state of mind may have something to do with how much pain we feel.


No no no. You don't get it. Pain is important because it tells us when something is wrong in our body, when something is screwy, or when we are doing something stupid. People who can't feel pain end up damaging their body because they can't tell when they are fucking up, like burning or cutting themselves. It. Is. Important. Anyone who disagrees with that is a fucking idiot.

Also, didn't I just say, psychological "pain" is what we call suffering. Pain sensing is strictly physical. The two things are not, and will never be the same.

I think must have missed something you said. Pain, physical pain is important. Absolutely. No question that we need to know when we've cut ourselves, gotten burnt, shot, etc. But if I get a headache, it hurts. Is that not pain? Is that *only* psychological? If so, why does it feel the same as if someone hit me on the head? And suffering: is prolonged physical pain not suffering, like psychological "pain"?

But going by your definitions, I'm mostly referring to suffering, excepting the idea of being able to accept more sensory input. There's a shitload of suffering going on in the world that's completely unnecessary. If we can't eventually transcend the need to kill, rape, and destroy each other, then we might as well slide back into the primordial ooze. Because that's all we'll be.

12
Must edit more quickly.
Maybe I'm a little biased, since I enjoy getting pierced so much.  Keep that in mind.

I feel that pain and hardship breed strength.  Pain is, for one thing, integral to the true understanding of pleasure, imo.  You cant truly grasp pleasure and happiness without pain and unhappiness. 

Its like this;  by denying pain, by completely ridding ourselves of it, we would be cutting ourselves off from a fundamental part of the human experience.  From my understanding, H+ is about transcending the human condition, but I dont think you can do that by subtracting.  Rather, the goal should be addition.  Pain is a part of who and what we are, and by ridding ourselves of it I think we would be lessening ourselves.  Now, changing pain would be one thing, learning to control it so that it would still be useful, but not unbearable, that I could see as good, but removing our pain centers is as bad as removing our pleasure centers.

Through pain and pleasure we connect with our bodies.  We communicate with our bodies.  Also, I dont think there is any difference between the two.  In the words of a very wise man; "There is no such thing as pain.  There is only powerful sensation."  I dont think it possible to alter our ability to feel sensation without altering our ability to feel ALL sensation.

I might be misunderstanding what transhumanists believe, but in my understanding of the meaning of transcendence, it's moving beyond, rather than subtraction. There's no loss, in the sense of a removal, but a release, in the sense of letting go of what is no longer useful. I'll have to look into transhumanism more before I can discuss that adequately, but I'm intrigued by this concept of whether or not we can or should transcend pain and suffering. I think we can, and it's something that I'm attempting to do in my own life. More and more, I'm convinced that pain is (and should be) as controllable as pleasure. And if we can do that, I don't see why we can't choose to move beyond it. Moreover, it may be required that we transcend pain and suffering in order to continue developing and evolving as a species. Our senses give us the world, but in a very limited fashion. We can only take in so much, before those senses become overwhelmed with input. Perhaps transcending pain would allow us to take in more input, and we would be able to sense much more than we can now.

@ Kai- I've never had the privilege of meeting someone like that, but I can understand how pain is important for us physiologically. Still, not all pain is physical, and there is mounting evidence that our state of mind may have something to do with how much pain we feel. We also don't need to experience pain repeatedly to know that something will be painful. It only took one touch to learn that the iron will burn my skin. You can be sure that I'll never do that again!

Yes, by removing pain we would open ourselves to new levels of experience, but we would deny ourselves access to many old levels of expereince which I would argue are still very useful.  IMO almost all of human achievment has been the result of pain.

I'm enjoying this discussion, but I have to go to work now.  We'll talk more later I hope.
Thanks, I'm enjoying it too.

So far, a large portion of human achievement has involved pain and suffering, it's true. Many achievements have been intended to reduce pain and suffering as well. And considering the most modern technology, we have less and less pain involved yet.

As to whether the old levels of experience would be available to us, or whether they'd be useful...if we grew beyond the old levels of experience, they'd be about as useful as the Atari in my basement. Sure you can still play the old games, but why would you want to if the new games were full surround virtual reality?

13
Maybe I'm a little biased, since I enjoy getting pierced so much.  Keep that in mind.

I feel that pain and hardship breed strength.  Pain is, for one thing, integral to the true understanding of pleasure, imo.  You cant truly grasp pleasure and happiness without pain and unhappiness. 

Its like this;  by denying pain, by completely ridding ourselves of it, we would be cutting ourselves off from a fundamental part of the human experience.  From my understanding, H+ is about transcending the human condition, but I dont think you can do that by subtracting.  Rather, the goal should be addition.  Pain is a part of who and what we are, and by ridding ourselves of it I think we would be lessening ourselves.  Now, changing pain would be one thing, learning to control it so that it would still be useful, but not unbearable, that I could see as good, but removing our pain centers is as bad as removing our pleasure centers.

Through pain and pleasure we connect with our bodies.  We communicate with our bodies.  Also, I dont think there is any difference between the two.  In the words of a very wise man; "There is no such thing as pain.  There is only powerful sensation."  I dont think it possible to alter our ability to feel sensation without altering our ability to feel ALL sensation.

I might be misunderstanding what transhumanists believe, but in my understanding of the meaning of transcendence, it's moving beyond, rather than subtraction. There's no loss, in the sense of a removal, but a release, in the sense of letting go of what is no longer useful. I'll have to look into transhumanism more before I can discuss that adequately, but I'm intrigued by this concept of whether or not we can or should transcend pain and suffering. I think we can, and it's something that I'm attempting to do in my own life. More and more, I'm convinced that pain is (and should be) as controllable as pleasure. And if we can do that, I don't see why we can't choose to move beyond it. Moreover, it may be required that we transcend pain and suffering in order to continue developing and evolving as a species. Our senses give us the world, but in a very limited fashion. We can only take in so much, before those senses become overwhelmed with input. Perhaps transcending pain would allow us to take in more input, and we would be able to sense much more than we can now.

@ Kai- I've never had the privilege of meeting someone like that, but I can understand how pain is important for us physiologically. Yet even those who can't feel pain in part or all of their body can learn to adapt. We also don't need to experience pain repeatedly to know that something will be painful. Still, not all pain is physical, and there is mounting evidence that our state of mind may have something to do with how much pain we feel.

14
Or Kill Me / Re: ATTN: Mr. President
« on: November 05, 2008, 09:58:27 pm »
Deepest condolences on your loss, ECH.

This puts a lump in my throat every time I read it.

May your father rest in peace.

15
Quote from: Doktor Loki
These people want to completely elliminate pain and suffering altogether?  No, fuck that noise.  Pain is integral to our lives, our development.  That seems like a bad idea.

Why do you say that? What is it about pain and suffering that makes it a requirement for our development? How are we developing through pain anyway? What makes that good?

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