Principia Discordia

Principia Discordia => Think for Yourself, Schmuck! => Horrorology => Topic started by: Doktor Howl on April 10, 2012, 01:54:42 pm

Title: Notes on the current state of being (ongoing thread, comments okay)
Post by: Doktor Howl on April 10, 2012, 01:54:42 pm
4/10/12

Education, they tell us, is a sacred thing that should be denied to no child.  This is hardly a surprising attitude, when you consider that modern education is a vector by which they deliver the malady of subordination.

Make no mistake, the governments and corporations know they need some technical geeks, just to keep the lights on, etc.  The problem, however, is that educated people are hard to control unless you put the bridle on them first.  A highly educated man with a third of a million in debt coming out of the gate is much easier to deal with than one who comes out free and clear.

That much ought to be obvious...But let's look at children for a moment.  Children are subjected to, at their schools, 3 kinds of operant conditioning:

1.  Fear/obey authority:  THESE are the rules, and YOU will follow them.  K-12.  Leads to a lifetime of servile habits.

2.  Fall into the pecking order.  This used to be done by means of encouraging bullying.  It has, however, been found that simply ostracization functions BETTER when bullying has been removed from the table, as bullying creates multiple groups, which distracts from

3.  Encourage conformity.  Not in some eglatarian "we are all equal" sense, but to make people predictable.

When the above methods prove unworkable on a child, and that seems to be about 10-15% of the student body, why then we come to the problem of drugs in our schools.  For example, America consumes 90% of the world's Ritalin, and almost all of it is administered to male children between 6 and 12.  Keeps the little bastards quiet, and monkeys with their cognition.

How can a 6 year old have a diagnosable mental condition?  How can so many of them have these conditions?

Since they obviously can't, then the obvious question is "Why are they being drugged?"  The answer, of course, should be equally obvious.

And thus they manufacture the consent of the governed.

Okay for now.
Title: Re: Notes on the current state of being (ongoing thread, comments okay)
Post by: Doktor Howl on April 10, 2012, 02:02:07 pm
The only takeaways from the modern school system, other than the minimum math & science skills they pretty much have to teach you to allow you to minimally function is that You don't belong.
Title: Re: Notes on the current state of being (ongoing thread, comments okay)
Post by: Doktor Howl on April 10, 2012, 02:07:00 pm
Trayvon Martin's death...It should have been investigated locally.  It wasn't.  The state should have stepped in.  It didn't.  The Feds should have stepped in, on civil rights grounds.  It has failed to do so.

The reason for this, of course, is to further drive home the message that you are helpless.  You exist at the whim of entrenched "good citizens", who have the backing of the entire government, at all levels.
Title: Re: Notes on the current state of being (ongoing thread, comments okay)
Post by: Doktor Howl on April 10, 2012, 02:24:48 pm
Of course, the principle danger of looking around is that you tend to become jaded.  This is because there seems to be no handle by which to gain enough control of your daily life to change any of the horrible shit they shower us with, every day.

The best part is that you know that's not correct, but they've convinced you that it is.
Title: Re: Notes on the current state of being (ongoing thread, comments okay)
Post by: Doktor Howl on April 10, 2012, 02:33:56 pm
Consider:  They control all forms of media save one (the internet), hence SOPA, etc.

If they control the media, then what do you get by watching or reading the media?  Why, you contract at least a few of their memes, of course.  The meme that Mexican illegal immigrants are responsible for the rise in measles, polio, eye disease, TB, etc, is a good example.  It also turns out (thanks for the link, Nigel), to be completely untrue.

Another obvious example was the lead up to the second round of Iraq.  The media treated the war as a foregone conclusion; that the decisions had already been made, so why not just sit back and watch the CNN war porn?

Bradley Manning is another example.  The lesson is, we're going to torture this American because he followed his own moral sense.  And you can do nothing to stop it.

If they keep telling lies, and you keep listening, you'll start believing them.  And believe you me, all the stories that the major media spews in your face are ones that are in fact carefully vetted as issues that are almost impossible to influence.

Which, obviously, distracts you from the issues you CAN influence, but even if you saw them, you're so beat up, it's kind of like "why bother"?
Title: Re: Notes on the current state of being (ongoing thread, comments okay)
Post by: Doktor Howl on April 10, 2012, 02:57:03 pm
Think about this, for just a moment:  If the US government is no longer bound by the US constitution in any meaningful way, why are you?
Title: Re: Notes on the current state of being (ongoing thread, comments okay)
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on April 10, 2012, 03:01:57 pm
Think about this, for just a moment:  If the US government is no longer bound by the US constitution in any meaningful way, why are you?

What parts of the US Constitution would I have been bound to? The only bits I know of deal with how the government works, and how it is limited from interfering with a citizen's life.
Title: Re: Notes on the current state of being (ongoing thread, comments okay)
Post by: Doktor Howl on April 10, 2012, 03:03:56 pm
Think about this, for just a moment:  If the US government is no longer bound by the US constitution in any meaningful way, why are you?

What parts of the US Constitution would I have been bound to? The only bits I know of deal with how the government works, and how it is limited from interfering with a citizen's life.

You are required to:

1.  Answer the draft.
2.  Sit on a jury.
3.  Pay taxes.

You are also, by implication - and this is the important part - obey federal laws as passed by congress, in precisely the same manner the government "must" obey the constitution.  It's right there in black & white, in article VI.
Title: Re: Notes on the current state of being (ongoing thread, comments okay)
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on April 10, 2012, 03:07:41 pm
Think about this, for just a moment:  If the US government is no longer bound by the US constitution in any meaningful way, why are you?

What parts of the US Constitution would I have been bound to? The only bits I know of deal with how the government works, and how it is limited from interfering with a citizen's life.

You are required to:

1.  Answer the draft.
2.  Sit on a jury.
3.  Pay taxes.

You are also, by implication - and this is the important part - obey federal laws as passed by congress, in precisely the same manner the government "must" obey the constitution.  It's right there in black & white, in article VI.

Cool- thanks for that.
Title: Re: Notes on the current state of being (ongoing thread, comments okay)
Post by: The Johnny on April 10, 2012, 03:11:11 pm

And thus they manufacture the consent of the governed.


Ive been doing some field-work on a middle school that involves interviewing teachers... and each and every one of them talks about how education must be "integral"; not just about teaching knowledge on specific subjects, but about VALUES.

They dont have values because they horse around flag ceremony and have no respect for the patriotic symbols; they dont have values because their family is dysfunctional; they dont have values because they cherish the internet more than our words of wisdom.

School is a tool and an enforcer of the disciplinary society because it tries to impose its worldview and ideology of "what-is-right" on students.

Different contexts, different applications; same objective.
Title: Re: Notes on the current state of being (ongoing thread, comments okay)
Post by: Doktor Howl on April 10, 2012, 03:12:29 pm
Think about this, for just a moment:  If the US government is no longer bound by the US constitution in any meaningful way, why are you?

What parts of the US Constitution would I have been bound to? The only bits I know of deal with how the government works, and how it is limited from interfering with a citizen's life.

You are required to:

1.  Answer the draft.
2.  Sit on a jury.
3.  Pay taxes.

You are also, by implication - and this is the important part - obey federal laws as passed by congress, in precisely the same manner the government "must" obey the constitution.  It's right there in black & white, in article VI.

Cool- thanks for that.

Here you go:

Quote
Article VI
All Debts contracted and Engagements entered into, before the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be as valid against the United States under this Constitution, as under the Confederation.

This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwith-standing.

The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.
Title: Re: Notes on the current state of being (ongoing thread, comments okay)
Post by: Doktor Howl on April 10, 2012, 03:13:32 pm

Different contexts, different applications; same objective.

Precisely.

And just whose values are they inculcating?
Title: Re: Notes on the current state of being (ongoing thread, comments okay)
Post by: AFK on April 10, 2012, 03:19:18 pm

And thus they manufacture the consent of the governed.


Ive been doing some field-work on a middle school that involves interviewing teachers... and each and every one of them talks about how education must be "integral"; not just about teaching knowledge on specific subjects, but about VALUES.

They dont have values because they horse around flag ceremony and have no respect for the patriotic symbols; they dont have values because their family is dysfunctional; they dont have values because they cherish the internet more than our words of wisdom.

School is a tool and an enforcer of the disciplinary society because it tries to impose its worldview and ideology of "what-is-right" on students.

Different contexts, different applications; same objective.

While that may be true to some degree, the problem is that society has grown to have that expectation of the education system.  Our society has grown to expect schools to not only teach math and science and english, but to also be a third parent.  It's the school's job to teach kids about safe sex, about drugs, about how to be a good citizen....

And while I think those are all good, what has happened is that parents have, perhaps unconsciously, shifted that part of parenting to schools.  And then when the schools fail (because they are not designed to be parents), people get upset. 

Schools need to be more empowered to do what they are supposed to do which is impart knowledge upon our children and get them ready for their next phase of learning whether it is college or taking up a trade.  Parents need to be more empowered to be the parents. 
Title: Re: Notes on the current state of being (ongoing thread, comments okay)
Post by: LMNO on April 10, 2012, 03:21:34 pm
Re: education.

I see where you're going, and for a large part, I agree....  But how does that explain me/us/y'all?  I've felt and experienced the appeal to authority, the bullying, the conformity, the social heirarchy.  But it didn't take.  It did suck, though.  But I kept learning things.  I liked learning things.  I also managed to avoid the drugs.  And once I got out into 10th grade, "it got better".  My desire to non-conform was accepted, if only reluctantly at first.  But it was a freedom, in some sense.  And so here I am.

Now, I know this is potentially a biased outlook: "I'm not, so no one is."  But I know that for the majority of kids, the way you present it is the way it works.  But there's a way to escape.  Maybe we should look into that, figure out how to do it.

Also
Of course, the principle danger of looking around is that you tend to become jaded.  This is because there seems to be no handle by which to gain enough control of your daily life to change any of the horrible shit they shower us with, every day.

The best part is that you know that's not correct, but they've convinced you that it is.

This is TROOF.  It's hard for me to think outside the system when I've got both feet in the system.
Title: Re: Notes on the current state of being (ongoing thread, comments okay)
Post by: The Johnny on April 10, 2012, 03:22:57 pm

Different contexts, different applications; same objective.

Precisely.

And just whose values are they inculcating?

From what i can see, its the modern State's rationalization (im not sure if it translates this way) process, which aims at the re-integration of whomever is a deviant (excluded or radicals); but the thing is, they want the re-integration to be under their terms of the established order which ultimately favours the ruling classes. Its essentialy on the conservative side of things. It's nostalgic, self-centered and preachy.
Title: Re: Notes on the current state of being (ongoing thread, comments okay)
Post by: AFK on April 10, 2012, 03:25:56 pm
Re: education.

I see where you're going, and for a large part, I agree....  But how does that explain me/us/y'all?  I've felt and experienced the appeal to authority, the bullying, the conformity, the social heirarchy.  But it didn't take.  It did suck, though.  But I kept learning things.  I liked learning things.  I also managed to avoid the drugs.  And once I got out into 10th grade, "it got better".  My desire to non-conform was accepted, if only reluctantly at first.  But it was a freedom, in some sense.  And so here I am.

Now, I know this is potentially a biased outlook: "I'm not, so no one is."  But I know that for the majority of kids, the way you present it is the way it works.  But there's a way to escape.  Maybe we should look into that, figure out how to do it.

From what I can tell, the social hierarchy stuff comes more from the student body than it does the actual school itself.  I think kids are under far more pressure to fit in with a certain clique or social strata within the kid universe than they are any appeals to authority they receive from school staff and administration. 

Kids don't give a fuck about what the principal thinks, but if those cool kids over there think I'm a hopeless geek than my life is over. 

And schools are stretched so goddamned thin these days, they can't hope to keep up with that fallout. 
Title: Re: Notes on the current state of being (ongoing thread, comments okay)
Post by: LMNO on April 10, 2012, 03:32:38 pm
I don't know... I was pretty wary of the principal and the teachers.  I had fear of getting "into trouble".  Sure there a lot of bluster and bravado on the outside, but in my school there were a very few kids who honestly didn't care about the school's authority.
Title: Re: Notes on the current state of being (ongoing thread, comments okay)
Post by: The Johnny on April 10, 2012, 03:33:52 pm
While that may be true to some degree, the problem is that society has grown to have that expectation of the education system.  Our society has grown to expect schools to not only teach math and science and english, but to also be a third parent.  It's the school's job to teach kids about safe sex, about drugs, about how to be a good citizen....

And while I think those are all good, what has happened is that parents have, perhaps unconsciously, shifted that part of parenting to schools.  And then when the schools fail (because they are not designed to be parents), people get upset. 

Schools need to be more empowered to do what they are supposed to do which is impart knowledge upon our children and get them ready for their next phase of learning whether it is college or taking up a trade.  Parents need to be more empowered to be the parents.

Well, i see it more as opportunistic that schools strive to teach ideology and "values" in the wake of dead-beat parents... things like "being a good citizen" are ultimately so subjective that when it is imparted by any institution or person its gonna have a self-serving-usefullness in the message ("to be a good citizen is to obey the laws..." etc)

Sure, teaching how sex and drugs work is fine, because it gives knowledge about how something works and leaving the ultimate decision to them... its very different to preach about sexual abstinence than to teach a person how condoms work or how reproduction works.
Title: Re: Notes on the current state of being (ongoing thread, comments okay)
Post by: AFK on April 10, 2012, 03:37:31 pm
I don't know... I was pretty wary of the principal and the teachers.  I had fear of getting "into trouble".  Sure there a lot of bluster and bravado on the outside, but in my school there were a very few kids who honestly didn't care about the school's authority.

Maybe, but I still think based on my experiences working in schools, on a comparative basis, there is more pressure to conform to peers then there is to authority. 
Title: Re: Notes on the current state of being (ongoing thread, comments okay)
Post by: Freeky on April 10, 2012, 03:41:49 pm
Quote
3.  Encourage conformity.  Not in some egalitarian "we are all equal" sense, but to make people predictable.

When the above methods prove unworkable on a child, and that seems to be about 10-15% of the student body, why then we come to the problem of drugs in our schools.  For example, America consumes 90% of the world's Ritalin, and almost all of it is administered to male children between 6 and 12.  Keeps the little bastards quiet, and monkeys with their cognition.

When I was a little kid, it was somehow cool to be on drugs.  So not only do you have a population who is widely conformist, but you have the ones that doesn't work on actively trying to drug themselves.
Title: Re: Notes on the current state of being (ongoing thread, comments okay)
Post by: AFK on April 10, 2012, 03:42:36 pm
While that may be true to some degree, the problem is that society has grown to have that expectation of the education system.  Our society has grown to expect schools to not only teach math and science and english, but to also be a third parent.  It's the school's job to teach kids about safe sex, about drugs, about how to be a good citizen....

And while I think those are all good, what has happened is that parents have, perhaps unconsciously, shifted that part of parenting to schools.  And then when the schools fail (because they are not designed to be parents), people get upset. 

Schools need to be more empowered to do what they are supposed to do which is impart knowledge upon our children and get them ready for their next phase of learning whether it is college or taking up a trade.  Parents need to be more empowered to be the parents.

Well, i see it more as opportunistic that schools strive to teach ideology and "values" in the wake of dead-beat parents... things like "being a good citizen" are ultimately so subjective that when it is imparted by any institution or person its gonna have a self-serving-usefullness in the message ("to be a good citizen is to obey the laws..." etc)

Sure, teaching how sex and drugs work is fine, because it gives knowledge about how something works and leaving the ultimate decision to them... its very different to preach about sexual abstinence than to teach a person how condoms work or how reproduction works.

For sure, schools have an interest in imparting ideas about citizenship that will help keep the peace in the schools.  I think ultimately it isn't out of any nefarious intent to create societal robots but more out of, "holy fuck I gotta keep these kids in line so they pass the damned tests and i don't get my funding cut."  School administrations are under incredible pressure to perform.  And they're getting it from all directions.  State government, local government, tax payers, parents, grand-parents, local media, etc., etc.,  They'll do what they need to do to keep that shit off their backs. 

The federal government created that monster.  Namely the asshats who constructed NCLB.  The People continue to support that monster by NOT demanding its death. 
Title: Re: Notes on the current state of being (ongoing thread, comments okay)
Post by: LMNO on April 10, 2012, 03:43:15 pm
I don't know... I was pretty wary of the principal and the teachers.  I had fear of getting "into trouble".  Sure there a lot of bluster and bravado on the outside, but in my school there were a very few kids who honestly didn't care about the school's authority.

Maybe, but I still think based on my experiences working in schools, on a comparative basis, there is more pressure to conform to peers then there is to authority. 

Well sure -- You conform to peers, but you obey authority.
Title: Re: Notes on the current state of being (ongoing thread, comments okay)
Post by: AFK on April 10, 2012, 03:50:44 pm
I don't know... I was pretty wary of the principal and the teachers.  I had fear of getting "into trouble".  Sure there a lot of bluster and bravado on the outside, but in my school there were a very few kids who honestly didn't care about the school's authority.

Maybe, but I still think based on my experiences working in schools, on a comparative basis, there is more pressure to conform to peers then there is to authority. 

Well sure -- You conform to peers, but you obey authority.

But I think schools, at least in some cases, are approaching that from a strength-based perspective.  That is, to talk about citizenship and how it benefits the community.  In other words, framing it so that "good behavior" isn't just about making the teacher and principal happy, but about creating an environment that is conducive to education. 

So I think one thing we as taxpayers and citizens can do is to encourage more of that.  Does your local school system have some kind of citizenship statement in their school policy?  If not they should.  It shouldn't be some neanderthal zero-tolerance, behave or GTFO policy.  It should be, "This is how we make our school work" kind of statement.  So it's about the kids investing in their community, not becoming a blank robot. 
Title: Re: Notes on the current state of being (ongoing thread, comments okay)
Post by: The Johnny on April 10, 2012, 03:52:14 pm
For sure, schools have an interest in imparting ideas about citizenship that will help keep the peace in the schools.  I think ultimately it isn't out of any nefarious intent to create societal robots but more out of, "holy fuck I gotta keep these kids in line so they pass the damned tests and i don't get my funding cut."  School administrations are under incredible pressure to perform.  And they're getting it from all directions.  State government, local government, tax payers, parents, grand-parents, local media, etc., etc.,  They'll do what they need to do to keep that shit off their backs. 

The federal government created that monster.  Namely the asshats who constructed NCLB.  The People continue to support that monster by NOT demanding its death.

What i find hilarious is the same tendencies happening here and there... its like if governments read a book on bio-politics and created policies and institutional behaviours accordingly. Its just so cliché but ultimately real how every aspect of civilian life is attempted to be controled to ensure a functionally healthy sizeable work force, the vector being schools.

Schools not only have to teach values, they have to run anti-drug programs, anti-teen pregnancy programs, vaccinations programs, family integration seminars alongside all the academic stuff (some stuff might not apply there, but it does for sure over here)
Title: Re: Notes on the current state of being (ongoing thread, comments okay)
Post by: AFK on April 10, 2012, 04:02:24 pm
Nope, all of that stuff is here too.  I think most schools would be happy to NOT have to do that stuff.  It takes staff time and resources that could be better spent focusing on the fundamentals of education.  But at this point society expects schools to serve those functions.  I don't see it changing anytime soon.  Society needs to have its expectations around education reframed and reworked. 
Title: Re: Notes on the current state of being (ongoing thread, comments okay)
Post by: Doktor Howl on April 10, 2012, 04:20:56 pm
Re: education.

I see where you're going, and for a large part, I agree....  But how does that explain me/us/y'all?  I've felt and experienced the appeal to authority, the bullying, the conformity, the social heirarchy.  But it didn't take.  It did suck, though.  But I kept learning things.  I liked learning things.  I also managed to avoid the drugs. 

The system can certainly survive a few rogues slipping through.  For the majority, though, ritalin, etc, is pushed successfully on the parents, because the parents get a nice quiet kid.  Except when they have convulsions as a side effect, of course.


This is TROOF.  It's hard for me to think outside the system when I've got both feet in the system.

Yep.  I'd say the trick is to learn how to glean whatever benefits you can from the system without becoming totally absorbed by it.
Title: Re: Notes on the current state of being (ongoing thread, comments okay)
Post by: Doktor Howl on April 10, 2012, 04:22:24 pm
Nope, all of that stuff is here too.  I think most schools would be happy to NOT have to do that stuff.  It takes staff time and resources that could be better spent focusing on the fundamentals of education.  But at this point society expects schools to serve those functions.  I don't see it changing anytime soon.  Society needs to have its expectations around education reframed and reworked.

I'm going to argue that.  I think most teachers would be happy to not have that stuff.

School systems, on the other hand, are more concerned with standardized testing and low/no discipline incidents.
Title: Re: Notes on the current state of being (ongoing thread, comments okay)
Post by: Doktor Howl on April 10, 2012, 04:25:18 pm
I don't know... I was pretty wary of the principal and the teachers.  I had fear of getting "into trouble".  Sure there a lot of bluster and bravado on the outside, but in my school there were a very few kids who honestly didn't care about the school's authority.

Maybe, but I still think based on my experiences working in schools, on a comparative basis, there is more pressure to conform to peers then there is to authority.

In my experience as an involved parent, I see a great deal of imposed authority.  Dress codes that have nothing to do with "decency", "Respect" rules that allow a teacher to punish someone who points out an error in the lesson, etc.
Title: Re: Notes on the current state of being (ongoing thread, comments okay)
Post by: Doktor Howl on April 10, 2012, 04:29:09 pm

Different contexts, different applications; same objective.

Precisely.

And just whose values are they inculcating?

From what i can see, its the modern State's rationalization (im not sure if it translates this way) process, which aims at the re-integration of whomever is a deviant (excluded or radicals); but the thing is, they want the re-integration to be under their terms of the established order which ultimately favours the ruling classes. Its essentialy on the conservative side of things. It's nostalgic, self-centered and preachy.

In other words, they are trying to create a jello-mold linked to a mythical 1950s (in America, anyway), in which everyone is "normal" and well-behaved.

Thing is, the actual product of that system was the highest rate of juvenile delinquency in US history, and the highest number of teen pregnancies.

I expect the results will be the same in Mexico, as the driving factors are primate politics, not local cultural norms.
Title: Re: Notes on the current state of being (ongoing thread, comments okay)
Post by: Doktor Howl on April 10, 2012, 04:33:18 pm
Fact is, Johnny is right...Despite the differences in approach, the end result is the same:  Children as a product, education (read; indoctrination) as a feature of said product.
Title: Re: Notes on the current state of being (ongoing thread, comments okay)
Post by: AFK on April 10, 2012, 04:53:34 pm
Nope, all of that stuff is here too.  I think most schools would be happy to NOT have to do that stuff.  It takes staff time and resources that could be better spent focusing on the fundamentals of education.  But at this point society expects schools to serve those functions.  I don't see it changing anytime soon.  Society needs to have its expectations around education reframed and reworked.

I'm going to argue that.  I think most teachers would be happy to not have that stuff.

School systems, on the other hand, are more concerned with standardized testing and low/no discipline incidents.

Right, which is precisely why even the school systems would rather not have to deal with that stuff.  It takes up valuable resources both human and fiscal.  I know they'd much rather have those man hours going into getting those test scores to go up.  It's the community that wants that stuff in the schools because the community doesn't want to have to deal with it.  They want schools to be parents, baby-sitters, etc. 

I don't envy School Superintendents one bit.  That's a completely thankless job.  Doesn't matter what you do, you are pissing someone off. 
Title: Re: Notes on the current state of being (ongoing thread, comments okay)
Post by: Doktor Howl on April 10, 2012, 04:57:15 pm
Nope, all of that stuff is here too.  I think most schools would be happy to NOT have to do that stuff.  It takes staff time and resources that could be better spent focusing on the fundamentals of education.  But at this point society expects schools to serve those functions.  I don't see it changing anytime soon.  Society needs to have its expectations around education reframed and reworked.

I'm going to argue that.  I think most teachers would be happy to not have that stuff.

School systems, on the other hand, are more concerned with standardized testing and low/no discipline incidents.

Right, which is precisely why even the school systems would rather not have to deal with that stuff.  It takes up valuable resources both human and fiscal.  I know they'd much rather have those man hours going into getting those test scores to go up.

Perhaps.  My experience says that this way is easier for them.

And as for the people actually mandating those tests, "teaching to the test" is not only acceptable, it's desireable.
Title: Re: Notes on the current state of being (ongoing thread, comments okay)
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on April 10, 2012, 05:12:44 pm
4/10/12

Education, they tell us, is a sacred thing that should be denied to no child.  This is hardly a surprising attitude, when you consider that modern education is a vector by which they deliver the malady of subordination.

Make no mistake, the governments and corporations know they need some technical geeks, just to keep the lights on, etc.  The problem, however, is that educated people are hard to control unless you put the bridle on them first.  A highly educated man with a third of a million in debt coming out of the gate is much easier to deal with than one who comes out free and clear.

That much ought to be obvious...But let's look at children for a moment.  Children are subjected to, at their schools, 3 kinds of operant conditioning:

1.  Fear/obey authority:  THESE are the rules, and YOU will follow them.  K-12.  Leads to a lifetime of servile habits.

2.  Fall into the pecking order.  This used to be done by means of encouraging bullying.  It has, however, been found that simply ostracization functions BETTER when bullying has been removed from the table, as bullying creates multiple groups, which distracts from

3.  Encourage conformity.  Not in some eglatarian "we are all equal" sense, but to make people predictable.

When the above methods prove unworkable on a child, and that seems to be about 10-15% of the student body, why then we come to the problem of drugs in our schools.  For example, America consumes 90% of the world's Ritalin, and almost all of it is administered to male children between 6 and 12.  Keeps the little bastards quiet, and monkeys with their cognition.

How can a 6 year old have a diagnosable mental condition?  How can so many of them have these conditions?

Since they obviously can't, then the obvious question is "Why are they being drugged?"  The answer, of course, should be equally obvious.

And thus they manufacture the consent of the governed.

Okay for now.

Oh holy shit, as a parent of three kids in the school system, I agree completely. Completely. Especially seeing what happened to my son last year after he was sorted into the "troublemaker" category for such egregious offenses as leaving his seat while the teacher was speaking, and walking out of the classroom. Once a kid has been labeled "problem kid", it's almost impossible to get them re-labeled as a "good kid" or "smart kid". It took a lot of persuasive power and talking to the right people to get him relabeled as a "sensitive and depressed kid", which is something I can work with.

Don't even think for a moment kids are going through school without labels. And, don't underestimate the influence public schools have on who ends up in jail.
Title: Re: Notes on the current state of being (ongoing thread, comments okay)
Post by: Doktor Howl on April 10, 2012, 05:15:54 pm
Oh holy shit, as a parent of three kids in the school system, I agree completely. Completely. Especially seeing what happened to my son last year after he was sorted into the "troublemaker" category for such egregious offenses as leaving his seat while the teacher was speaking, and walking out of the classroom. Once a kid has been labeled "problem kid", it's almost impossible to get them re-labeled as a "good kid" or "smart kid". It took a lot of persuasive power and talking to the right people to get him relabeled as a "sensitive and depressed kid", which is something I can work with.

Don't even think for a moment kids are going through school without labels. And, don't underestimate the influence public schools have on who ends up in jail.

When I was in 5th grade, our teacher, Mr Wilson, said that if we had to go to the bathroom, just go.  No need to publicly ask permission.

He was reprimanded, for undermining his authority as a teacher, and the authority of other teachers.

The reprimanded was conducted in front of the class.

That was an interesting lesson in what school is actually for, from a 5th grader's perspective.
Title: Re: Notes on the current state of being (ongoing thread, comments okay)
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on April 10, 2012, 05:30:04 pm
Oh holy shit, as a parent of three kids in the school system, I agree completely. Completely. Especially seeing what happened to my son last year after he was sorted into the "troublemaker" category for such egregious offenses as leaving his seat while the teacher was speaking, and walking out of the classroom. Once a kid has been labeled "problem kid", it's almost impossible to get them re-labeled as a "good kid" or "smart kid". It took a lot of persuasive power and talking to the right people to get him relabeled as a "sensitive and depressed kid", which is something I can work with.

Don't even think for a moment kids are going through school without labels. And, don't underestimate the influence public schools have on who ends up in jail.

When I was in 5th grade, our teacher, Mr Wilson, said that if we had to go to the bathroom, just go.  No need to publicly ask permission.

He was reprimanded, for undermining his authority as a teacher, and the authority of other teachers.

The reprimanded was conducted in front of the class.

That was an interesting lesson in what school is actually for, from a 5th grader's perspective.

YEP.

It's getting worse. Not to sound all rah-rah freshman but one of the papers I had to write last term was about indoctrination in schools; I don't know whether it's comforting (because it's being recognized) or alarming (because it's recognized, and yet getting worse) but sociology textbooks and films recognize and examine the problem in very similar terms to the ones you've used.

A a matter of fact, of I didn't know better I'd suspect that PD.com is writing the sociology textbooks.  :lulz:

Good teachers are being weeded out by a bad system, sadly.
Title: Re: Notes on the current state of being (ongoing thread, comments okay)
Post by: Lord Cataplanga on April 10, 2012, 05:31:01 pm
Quote
Public school teachers are in much the same position as prison wardens. Wardens' main concern is to keep the prisoners on the premises. They also need to keep them fed, and as far as possible prevent them from killing one another. Beyond that, they want to have as little to do with the prisoners as possible, so they leave them to create whatever social organization they want. From what I've read, the society that the prisoners create is warped, savage, and pervasive, and it is no fun to be at the bottom of it.

From Paul Greham's essay Why Nerds are Unpopular (http://www.paulgraham.com/nerds.html).
That essay is a little long and rather unfocused, but it's very interesting and I think it makes some very good points about the goals and incentives in education.
Title: Re: Notes on the current state of being (ongoing thread, comments okay)
Post by: Doktor Howl on April 10, 2012, 05:40:01 pm
Oh holy shit, as a parent of three kids in the school system, I agree completely. Completely. Especially seeing what happened to my son last year after he was sorted into the "troublemaker" category for such egregious offenses as leaving his seat while the teacher was speaking, and walking out of the classroom. Once a kid has been labeled "problem kid", it's almost impossible to get them re-labeled as a "good kid" or "smart kid". It took a lot of persuasive power and talking to the right people to get him relabeled as a "sensitive and depressed kid", which is something I can work with.

Don't even think for a moment kids are going through school without labels. And, don't underestimate the influence public schools have on who ends up in jail.

When I was in 5th grade, our teacher, Mr Wilson, said that if we had to go to the bathroom, just go.  No need to publicly ask permission.

He was reprimanded, for undermining his authority as a teacher, and the authority of other teachers.

The reprimanded was conducted in front of the class.

That was an interesting lesson in what school is actually for, from a 5th grader's perspective.

YEP.

It's getting worse. Not to sound all rah-rah freshman but one of the papers I had to write last term was about indoctrination in schools; I don't know whether it's comforting (because it's being recognized) or alarming (because it's recognized, and yet getting worse) but sociology textbooks and films recognize and examine the problem in very similar terms to the ones you've used.

A a matter of fact, of I didn't know better I'd suspect that PD.com is writing the sociology textbooks.  :lulz:

Good teachers are being weeded out by a bad system, sadly.

You've heard the expressions "Knowing is half the battle", and "Admitting there's a problem is the first step to fixing it"?

Well, given American society, that's when you stop.  Forget the other half of the battle, or the other steps needed, that sounds like way too much trouble.  We KNOW there's something wrong.  Someone will fix it; whomever is running the train will make the corrections.  I'm just "getting the word out".
Title: Re: Notes on the current state of being (ongoing thread, comments okay)
Post by: AFK on April 10, 2012, 05:59:25 pm
The problem is that American Society is conditioned to ONLY look at short-term goals. 

So for education that is churning out diplomas and getting kids into college.

America doesn't have the patience, nor the stomach, for looking at the medium and long term.

If it did, it would realize that the system has been conditioned to a point where it is manufacturing failure.  It is setting up false expectations.  It has woven this myth that, "if you just graduate high school, you'll make it"

And the pile of rudderless, unemployed 18-25 year olds continues to grow.
Title: Re: Notes on the current state of being (ongoing thread, comments okay)
Post by: Doktor Howl on April 10, 2012, 06:12:35 pm
The problem is that American Society is conditioned to ONLY look at short-term goals. 

Actually, what I've seen is that American society has been conditioned to think there are easy answers to complex issues, if only "those damn politicians" would get out of the way.

Example:  A college degree.  This is supposed to guarantee you prosperity, but is an expensive investment, beyond the mode income level of the USA.  And as you say, Americans think short term...We've been actively conditioned to be that way1.  So the easy answer is a student loan, right?  Only now you're in debt til you retire...So, so much for prosperity.

This is, of course, intentional.


1 One example of this conditioning is that the mean time between commercials on TV and radio has shrunk by about 30% over the last 20 years, small increments at a time.


Title: Re: Notes on the current state of being (ongoing thread, comments okay)
Post by: kiss my axe on April 10, 2012, 06:42:39 pm
Think about this, for just a moment:  If the US government is no longer bound by the US constitution in any meaningful way, why are you?

What parts of the US Constitution would I have been bound to? The only bits I know of deal with how the government works, and how it is limited from interfering with a citizen's life.

You are required to:

1.  Answer the draft.
2.  Sit on a jury.
3.  Pay taxes.

You are also, by implication - and this is the important part - obey federal laws as passed by congress, in precisely the same manner the government "must" obey the constitution.  It's right there in black & white, in article VI.

So according to article VI, we can do anything we goddamn please.
To bad it isn't worth the paper it's printed on.  :horrormirth:
Title: Re: Notes on the current state of being (ongoing thread, comments okay)
Post by: Doktor Howl on April 10, 2012, 06:43:20 pm
Think about this, for just a moment:  If the US government is no longer bound by the US constitution in any meaningful way, why are you?

What parts of the US Constitution would I have been bound to? The only bits I know of deal with how the government works, and how it is limited from interfering with a citizen's life.

You are required to:

1.  Answer the draft.
2.  Sit on a jury.
3.  Pay taxes.

You are also, by implication - and this is the important part - obey federal laws as passed by congress, in precisely the same manner the government "must" obey the constitution.  It's right there in black & white, in article VI.

So according to article VI, we can do anything we goddamn please.
To bad it isn't worth the paper it's printed on.  :horrormirth:

Um, no.  According to article VI, you have to obey federal law.
Title: Re: Notes on the current state of being (ongoing thread, comments okay)
Post by: kiss my axe on April 10, 2012, 06:50:35 pm
I don't know... I was pretty wary of the principal and the teachers.  I had fear of getting "into trouble".  Sure there a lot of bluster and bravado on the outside, but in my school there were a very few kids who honestly didn't care about the school's authority.

Maybe, but I still think based on my experiences working in schools, on a comparative basis, there is more pressure to conform to peers then there is to authority.

In my experience as an involved parent, I see a great deal of imposed authority.  Dress codes that have nothing to do with "decency", "Respect" rules that allow a teacher to punish someone who points out an error in the lesson, etc.

THIS. Not going to tell the "I don't know who this Jim Crow guy is, but it's not her place to speak" story again.

And everybody seems to swallow the bullshit that uniforms are somehow going to make the kids forget who's rich and who's poor.
Title: Re: Notes on the current state of being (ongoing thread, comments okay)
Post by: Doktor Howl on April 10, 2012, 06:55:38 pm
I don't know... I was pretty wary of the principal and the teachers.  I had fear of getting "into trouble".  Sure there a lot of bluster and bravado on the outside, but in my school there were a very few kids who honestly didn't care about the school's authority.

Maybe, but I still think based on my experiences working in schools, on a comparative basis, there is more pressure to conform to peers then there is to authority.

In my experience as an involved parent, I see a great deal of imposed authority.  Dress codes that have nothing to do with "decency", "Respect" rules that allow a teacher to punish someone who points out an error in the lesson, etc.

THIS. Not going to tell the "I don't know who this Jim Crow guy is, but it's not her place to speak" story again.

And everybody seems to swallow the bullshit that uniforms are somehow going to make the kids forget who's rich and who's poor.

Despite recent mouthing to the contrary, that is not and has never been the reasons for school uniforms.
Title: Re: Notes on the current state of being (ongoing thread, comments okay)
Post by: kiss my axe on April 10, 2012, 06:57:04 pm
Think about this, for just a moment:  If the US government is no longer bound by the US constitution in any meaningful way, why are you?

What parts of the US Constitution would I have been bound to? The only bits I know of deal with how the government works, and how it is limited from interfering with a citizen's life.

You are required to:

1.  Answer the draft.
2.  Sit on a jury.
3.  Pay taxes.

You are also, by implication - and this is the important part - obey federal laws as passed by congress, in precisely the same manner the government "must" obey the constitution.  It's right there in black & white, in article VI.

So according to article VI, we can do anything we goddamn please.
To bad it isn't worth the paper it's printed on.  :horrormirth:

Um, no.  According to article VI, you have to obey federal law.

Yes, that's what it says.
But in the same manner as the government "must" obey the constitution? Sounds like a lot of leeway...on paper, anyway.
Title: Re: Notes on the current state of being (ongoing thread, comments okay)
Post by: kiss my axe on April 10, 2012, 07:00:11 pm
I don't know... I was pretty wary of the principal and the teachers.  I had fear of getting "into trouble".  Sure there a lot of bluster and bravado on the outside, but in my school there were a very few kids who honestly didn't care about the school's authority.

Maybe, but I still think based on my experiences working in schools, on a comparative basis, there is more pressure to conform to peers then there is to authority.

In my experience as an involved parent, I see a great deal of imposed authority.  Dress codes that have nothing to do with "decency", "Respect" rules that allow a teacher to punish someone who points out an error in the lesson, etc.

THIS. Not going to tell the "I don't know who this Jim Crow guy is, but it's not her place to speak" story again.

And everybody seems to swallow the bullshit that uniforms are somehow going to make the kids forget who's rich and who's poor.

Despite recent mouthing to the contrary, that is not and has never been the reasons for school uniforms.

True, it's about conditioning them to be good WalMartTM workers.
And making parents buy twice as many clothes.
Title: Re: Notes on the current state of being (ongoing thread, comments okay)
Post by: Doktor Howl on April 10, 2012, 07:00:21 pm
Think about this, for just a moment:  If the US government is no longer bound by the US constitution in any meaningful way, why are you?

What parts of the US Constitution would I have been bound to? The only bits I know of deal with how the government works, and how it is limited from interfering with a citizen's life.

You are required to:

1.  Answer the draft.
2.  Sit on a jury.
3.  Pay taxes.

You are also, by implication - and this is the important part - obey federal laws as passed by congress, in precisely the same manner the government "must" obey the constitution.  It's right there in black & white, in article VI.

So according to article VI, we can do anything we goddamn please.
To bad it isn't worth the paper it's printed on.  :horrormirth:

Um, no.  According to article VI, you have to obey federal law.

Yes, that's what it says.
But in the same manner as the government "must" obey the constitution? Sounds like a lot of leeway...on paper, anyway.

This was exactly my point.  Only one side is upholding its end of the contract.
Title: Re: Notes on the current state of being (ongoing thread, comments okay)
Post by: Doktor Howl on April 10, 2012, 07:01:05 pm
True, it's about conditioning them to be good WalMartTM workers.
And making parents buy twice as many clothes.

It's about conditioning.  People in uniform act differently than people not in uniform.
Title: Re: Notes on the current state of being (ongoing thread, comments okay)
Post by: kiss my axe on April 10, 2012, 07:07:27 pm
True, it's about conditioning them to be good WalMartTM workers.
And making parents buy twice as many clothes.

It's about conditioning.  People in uniform act differently than people not in uniform.

True. It feels different wearing a uniform, kind of repressive.
Title: Re: Notes on the current state of being (ongoing thread, comments okay)
Post by: Doktor Howl on April 10, 2012, 07:10:41 pm
True, it's about conditioning them to be good WalMartTM workers.
And making parents buy twice as many clothes.

It's about conditioning.  People in uniform act differently than people not in uniform.

True. It feels different wearing a uniform, kind of repressive.

The general feeling, believe it or not, is comfort.  Belonging.

Being part of something greater than yourself.

This is why gangs have colors, it's why they shave the heads of recruits in the military, etc.  More innocently, it's why high school bands have uniforms when they're playing in the pit.
Title: Re: Notes on the current state of being (ongoing thread, comments okay)
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on April 10, 2012, 07:13:06 pm
True, it's about conditioning them to be good WalMartTM workers.
And making parents buy twice as many clothes.

It's about conditioning.  People in uniform act differently than people not in uniform.

Not only that, but people expect you to behave differently in uniform.

Referencing your messages thread- You expect a cop in blue to direct traffic, pull you over and bust criminals. You expect a cop in riot gear to direct the movement of people, pull you down and bust heads. You expect a cop dressed as a soldier to open fire.
Title: Re: Notes on the current state of being (ongoing thread, comments okay)
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on April 10, 2012, 07:13:54 pm
True, it's about conditioning them to be good WalMartTM workers.
And making parents buy twice as many clothes.

It's about conditioning.  People in uniform act differently than people not in uniform.

True. It feels different wearing a uniform, kind of repressive.

The general feeling, believe it or not, is comfort.  Belonging.

Being part of something greater than yourself.

This is why gangs have colors, it's why they shave the heads of recruits in the military, etc.  More innocently, it's why high school bands have uniforms when they're playing in the pit.

It serves to develop an "us and them" mentality.
Title: Re: Notes on the current state of being (ongoing thread, comments okay)
Post by: Doktor Howl on April 10, 2012, 07:14:19 pm
True, it's about conditioning them to be good WalMartTM workers.
And making parents buy twice as many clothes.

It's about conditioning.  People in uniform act differently than people not in uniform.

Not only that, but people expect you to behave differently in uniform.

Referencing your messages thread- You expect a cop in blue to direct traffic, pull you over and bust criminals. You expect a cop in riot gear to direct the movement of people, pull you down and bust heads. You expect a cop dressed as a soldier to open fire.

Yep.

In NYC in the 70s, when there was trouble, people called the fire department.  Because they'd show up.  And when they did, they wouldn't beat the complainant bloody.
Title: Re: Notes on the current state of being (ongoing thread, comments okay)
Post by: Doktor Howl on April 10, 2012, 07:14:34 pm
True, it's about conditioning them to be good WalMartTM workers.
And making parents buy twice as many clothes.

It's about conditioning.  People in uniform act differently than people not in uniform.

True. It feels different wearing a uniform, kind of repressive.

The general feeling, believe it or not, is comfort.  Belonging.

Being part of something greater than yourself.

This is why gangs have colors, it's why they shave the heads of recruits in the military, etc.  More innocently, it's why high school bands have uniforms when they're playing in the pit.

It serves to develop an "us and them" mentality.

Precisely.
Title: Re: Notes on the current state of being (ongoing thread, comments okay)
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on April 10, 2012, 07:15:22 pm
True, it's about conditioning them to be good WalMartTM workers.
And making parents buy twice as many clothes.

It's about conditioning.  People in uniform act differently than people not in uniform.

Not only that, but people expect you to behave differently in uniform.

Referencing your messages thread- You expect a cop in blue to direct traffic, pull you over and bust criminals. You expect a cop in riot gear to direct the movement of people, pull you down and bust heads. You expect a cop dressed as a soldier to open fire.

Yep.

In NYC in the 70s, when there was trouble, people called the fire department.  Because they'd show up.  And when they did, they wouldn't beat the complainant bloody.

Damn. Didn't know that.
Title: Re: Notes on the current state of being (ongoing thread, comments okay)
Post by: kiss my axe on April 10, 2012, 07:18:49 pm
True, it's about conditioning them to be good WalMartTM workers.
And making parents buy twice as many clothes.

It's about conditioning.  People in uniform act differently than people not in uniform.

True. It feels different wearing a uniform, kind of repressive.

The general feeling, believe it or not, is comfort.  Belonging.

Being part of something greater than yourself.

This is why gangs have colors, it's why they shave the heads of recruits in the military, etc.  More innocently, it's why high school bands have uniforms when they're playing in the pit.

Ugh.
Belonging is great, but at the expense of letting someone else dictate your appearance and persona, it sucks.

Ghaaa, I'm a freak.  :lol:
Title: Re: Notes on the current state of being (ongoing thread, comments okay)
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on April 10, 2012, 07:20:36 pm
True, it's about conditioning them to be good WalMartTM workers.
And making parents buy twice as many clothes.

It's about conditioning.  People in uniform act differently than people not in uniform.

True. It feels different wearing a uniform, kind of repressive.

The general feeling, believe it or not, is comfort.  Belonging.

Being part of something greater than yourself.

This is why gangs have colors, it's why they shave the heads of recruits in the military, etc.  More innocently, it's why high school bands have uniforms when they're playing in the pit.

Ugh.
Belonging is great, but at the expense of letting someone else dictate your appearance and persona, it sucks.

Ghaaa, I'm a freak.  :lol:

That's why you're here. :)
Title: Re: Notes on the current state of being (ongoing thread, comments okay)
Post by: kiss my axe on April 10, 2012, 07:35:30 pm
True, it's about conditioning them to be good WalMartTM workers.
And making parents buy twice as many clothes.

It's about conditioning.  People in uniform act differently than people not in uniform.

True. It feels different wearing a uniform, kind of repressive.

The general feeling, believe it or not, is comfort.  Belonging.

Being part of something greater than yourself.

This is why gangs have colors, it's why they shave the heads of recruits in the military, etc.  More innocently, it's why high school bands have uniforms when they're playing in the pit.

Ugh.
Belonging is great, but at the expense of letting someone else dictate your appearance and persona, it sucks.

Ghaaa, I'm a freak.  :lol:

That's why you're here. :)

GOOBLE GOBBLE, GOOBLE GOBBLE, ONE OF US!  :lulz:
Title: Re: Notes on the current state of being (ongoing thread, comments okay)
Post by: navkat on April 10, 2012, 11:44:46 pm
Think about this, for just a moment:  If the US government is no longer bound by the US constitution in any meaningful way, why are you?

Grrrrrrrrr!

I spend an inordinate amount of time thinking about:
College for Alex
Bug-out bags for both of us
Avoid the draft fund for Alex

I was in the Navy during the last years we ever had a president give a shit about not throwing warm bodies with guns at every problem. I don't want MY little monkey-muffin going. No siree.

If he works for NOAA, he gets a free pass.

One day, when the "selective service machine" has been running full-throttle for a few dozen years, one of us old timers will look up from the gruel they still let us eat if we're good and say
"You know, there was a time when 60% of the country didn't get tapped to do a tour before the age of 21."

And no one will know what the fuck we're talking about. That's like saying some dumb shit about there not being any internet. I mean, who cares? So then we'll say.

"Well, I guess it's a good thing you got that drinking age moved to 18, anyway, eh?"
Title: Re: Notes on the current state of being (ongoing thread, comments okay)
Post by: The Johnny on April 11, 2012, 06:43:14 am
In other words, they are trying to create a jello-mold linked to a mythical 1950s (in America, anyway), in which everyone is "normal" and well-behaved.

Thing is, the actual product of that system was the highest rate of juvenile delinquency in US history, and the highest number of teen pregnancies.

I expect the results will be the same in Mexico, as the driving factors are primate politics, not local cultural norms.

I dont agree with juvenile delinquency and teen pregnancy being the result of the education system, id think it'd be other factors.

Juvenile delinquency id chalk it up more to, i dont know really, identification with non-working role models in the media, or macroeconomic and family structure changes... or changes in the penalization of certain crimes, or even changes in the statistical recollection of data... i dont know much about this subject...

Teen pregnancies is weird, ive read stories about how girls after they have their babies are relieved of some kind of angst and makes them settle down, it even gives meaning to their life... so jeez i dont know, maybe something to do with the disintegration of traditional values and meaning of life that isnt replaced by anything modern?... one big question id have is that, do these pregnancies happen unwantedly, or are they wanted... dont really know about this either...

Here juvenile delinquency id say its more related to poverty and no jobs... one is more likely to peddle drugs if the alternative is to starve for a lack of prospect of jobs or education.
Title: Re: Notes on the current state of being (ongoing thread, comments okay)
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on April 11, 2012, 06:50:19 am
I always figured that the change in attitude on becoming a parent is instinctual. "well gotta stop being a kid since i have to take care of one" this does not prevent the parent from continuing to make odd decisions only that their priorities have shifted beyond their own control.
Title: Re: Notes on the current state of being (ongoing thread, comments okay)
Post by: The Johnny on April 11, 2012, 06:51:29 am
The problem is that American Society is conditioned to ONLY look at short-term goals. 

So for education that is churning out diplomas and getting kids into college.

America doesn't have the patience, nor the stomach, for looking at the medium and long term.

If it did, it would realize that the system has been conditioned to a point where it is manufacturing failure.  It is setting up false expectations.  It has woven this myth that, "if you just graduate high school, you'll make it"

And the pile of rudderless, unemployed 18-25 year olds continues to grow.

Here only middle school is "mandatory". After that the expectations from the government is to either get people to go to a trade school or a 1-2 year training course for a job... theres a huge lack of places at public university, there are no community colleges... theres some crazy figures like only 60% of people finish middle school...

And even if you make it thru to college, its no guarantee for a job; i mean, theres a reason why like 70% of our economy is informal, that is, the government cant tax it, but that also means that health is privately driven... and most formal jobs are one year contracts, where after you either get fired or contracted for another period of time, and this is done so the patron doesnt have to pay for health and services...
Title: Re: Notes on the current state of being (ongoing thread, comments okay)
Post by: Doktor Howl on April 11, 2012, 01:59:55 pm
In other words, they are trying to create a jello-mold linked to a mythical 1950s (in America, anyway), in which everyone is "normal" and well-behaved.

Thing is, the actual product of that system was the highest rate of juvenile delinquency in US history, and the highest number of teen pregnancies.

I expect the results will be the same in Mexico, as the driving factors are primate politics, not local cultural norms.

I dont agree with juvenile delinquency and teen pregnancy being the result of the education system, id think it'd be other factors.

It is other factors.  Education was just one among many.
Title: Re: Notes on the current state of being (ongoing thread, comments okay)
Post by: Doktor Howl on April 11, 2012, 02:25:42 pm
Turns out CNN doctored the audio of Zimmerman's 911 call.  The actual content went like this:

Quote
Operator:  What's he doing?

Zimmerman:  He looks suspicious.

Operator:  Can you give me a description?

Zimmerman:  He looks Black.  He has a hoodie on.


What you heard on CNN:

Quote
Operator:  What's he doing?

Zimmerman:  He looks suspicious.  He looks Black.

Now, this isn't The Doktor trying to stick up for Zimmerman.  From what I understand, he's a racist murderer who has now fled Florida, as the holes in his account of things begin to add up.  However, what you have here is CNN deliberately taking Zimmerman out of context, which used to be so rare as to be almost mythical (politicians like to claim they've been taken out of context when all that's really happened is their own big mouth bit them).

Fun fact:  There's no law against CNN doing that, due to a court decision in 2004, in which Fox News was successfully able to argue that they could just make shit up and call it news...So now you have to operate with the understanding that all news media is bad signal.  I mean, if you weren't already.
Title: Re: Notes on the current state of being (ongoing thread, comments okay)
Post by: LMNO on April 11, 2012, 02:31:58 pm
This is probably a faulty perception, but it seems the news media, while sliding down a scummy slope, really collapsed after 9/11, when they simply repeated whatever they were told rather than make independent analyses of what was going on.

Then, they decided to pit established truths up against whackjob bullshit, and treat them with equal deference, in order to appear "fair".

For some reason, I can't remember if they were doing that crap in 1999/2000.
Title: Re: Notes on the current state of being (ongoing thread, comments okay)
Post by: Doktor Howl on April 11, 2012, 04:32:32 pm
This is probably a faulty perception, but it seems the news media, while sliding down a scummy slope, really collapsed after 9/11, when they simply repeated whatever they were told rather than make independent analyses of what was going on.

Then, they decided to pit established truths up against whackjob bullshit, and treat them with equal deference, in order to appear "fair".

For some reason, I can't remember if they were doing that crap in 1999/2000.

In 1991, the media willingly and knowingly broadcast false information during Operation Desert Shield.  They did this at the request of the defense department, as they knew that Hussein watched CNN religiously.  Afterward, they announced what they had done, and apologized for the necessity.

This was, I believe, the tipping point.  While a worthy goal was accomplished, it set a precedent for allowing the news to be led..."Investigating" now means "reading the press releases" (Warren Ellis is, once again, proven to be a prophet).  Of course things had happened before that, but that was the first time the media openly lied and was lauded for it.
Title: Re: Notes on the current state of being (ongoing thread, comments okay)
Post by: AFK on April 11, 2012, 05:11:11 pm
Things really got mucked up when news went to cable and discovered they had to fill 24 hours with something.  It was different when you had to distill stuff to nightly, half-hour chunks, or fill a tiny space on a piece of newsprint.  There was more motivation to vet information.  The space for reporting was scarce so you wanted to make sure you were getting your bang for your buck.

Now, there's tons of time web-pages to fill so you can throw out any old shit and call it news.  Add in of course that we are talking about operations that are business models....and it would be any wonder that The People are getting anything that remotely resembles hard news.  It's been info-tainment for quite a while now and that shit was going on before 9/11.  It just got louder and more in-your-face post 9/11. 
Title: Re: Notes on the current state of being (ongoing thread, comments okay)
Post by: Doktor Howl on April 11, 2012, 05:12:00 pm
Things really got mucked up when news went to cable and discovered they had to fill 24 hours with something.  It was different when you had to distill stuff to nightly, half-hour chunks, or fill a tiny space on a piece of newsprint.  There was more motivation to vet information.  The space for reporting was scarce so you wanted to make sure you were getting your bang for your buck.

Now, there's tons of time web-pages to fill so you can throw out any old shit and call it news.  Add in of course that we are talking about operations that are business models....and it would be any wonder that The People are getting anything that remotely resembles hard news.  It's been info-tainment for quite a while now and that shit was going on before 9/11.  It just got louder and more in-your-face post 9/11.

Interesting thing about it is that all the major news outlets hemmorage money.
Title: Re: Notes on the current state of being (ongoing thread, comments okay)
Post by: navkat on April 11, 2012, 08:12:58 pm
This is why if anything, I get my news from foreign providers who are still required to tell the truth or they get lined up outside and shot like dogs.

So Al-Jazeera and RT.
Title: Re: Notes on the current state of being (ongoing thread, comments okay)
Post by: Cain on April 11, 2012, 09:14:13 pm
This is why if anything, I get my news from foreign providers who are still required to tell the truth or they get lined up outside and shot like dogs.

So Al-Jazeera and RT.

You mean "the company whose Syria coverage is being edited by a brother of the leader of the uprising" and "Russian state news"?

 :lulz:
Title: Re: Notes on the current state of being (ongoing thread, comments okay)
Post by: Don Coyote on April 11, 2012, 10:58:24 pm
This is why if anything, I get my news from foreign providers who are still required to tell the truth or they get lined up outside and shot like dogs.

So Al-Jazeera and RT.

You mean "the company whose Syria coverage is being edited by a brother of the leader of the uprising" and "Russian state news"?

 :lulz:

Isn't Al-Jazeera run by the Qatari government too?
Title: Re: Notes on the current state of being (ongoing thread, comments okay)
Post by: navkat on April 12, 2012, 01:53:24 am
This is why if anything, I get my news from foreign providers who are still required to tell the truth or they get lined up outside and shot like dogs.

So Al-Jazeera and RT.

You mean "the company whose Syria coverage is being edited by a brother of the leader of the uprising" and "Russian state news"?

 :lulz:

SO WE'RE ALL FUCKED, THEN.
Title: Re: Notes on the current state of being (ongoing thread, comments okay)
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on April 12, 2012, 02:25:37 am
Pretty much. I used to rely on bbc until cain mentioned that they arent so good at british news.

The trick is multiple sources.

Cain and faust- how reliable is rte (raidio-teilifis eireann or radio-television of ireland) since its english language from a neutral country?
Title: Re: Notes on the current state of being (ongoing thread, comments okay)
Post by: Cain on April 13, 2012, 11:06:00 am
Isn't Al-Jazeera run by the Qatari government too?

Yes.  I pretty much expect all state-run institutions to be at least a little...vanilla when it comes to reporting on their home state, but when said state is a Middle Eastern Monarchy, you can virtually guarantee that there are going to be some serious omissions. 

Not to mention it's worth remembering the Qatari government's strong role in the Libya uprising, and how this may affect their subsequent "Arab Spring" reporting.

SO WE'RE ALL FUCKED, THEN.

Yes.

Cain and faust- how reliable is rte (raidio-teilifis eireann or radio-television of ireland) since its english language from a neutral country?

A quick look around the web suggests they are slightly biased towards the centre-left: Fianna Fail and Labour were named as getting preferntial treatment according to an internal investigation.  However, this could be unconscious bias, and certainly reads that way, despite the frothing of some on the Irish right - especially since the World Socialist Movement and assosciated Irish parties have criticized RTE for being too pro-coporate and pro-Guarda in their coverage.  It's likely the class and education level of the people it recruits lends itself to a vaugely left-neoliberal outlook, which is not the result so much of intention as not being able to seperate one's ideas about the world from observation of it.
Title: Re: Notes on the current state of being (ongoing thread, comments okay)
Post by: Cain on April 13, 2012, 11:20:42 am
What I have not seen in this discussion on the media is the role that the profit motive has come to the fore since the early 90s, despite, as Roger correctly noting, the media does not generally make money from reporting.

The problem is this: rolling, 24-hour news stations and websites mean you need to be able to collect, analyze and disseminate news faster than the competition.  You get it out first on TV and on the web, and people will be visiting your site, watching your channel, boosting your ratings, driving up the cost of advertising on your channel.

But to do so, you have to have exceptionally quick turnover times.  The BBC, for example, gives about 10 minutes from a story appearing on a newswire agency (who do not investigate their own stories - they either rely on government spokesmen, NGO public officers, or PR releases) to research all aspects of it, reconfigure it, spellcheck it and put it up on the news site.  Ten minutes.

The drive to making news a profitable industry has also involved getting rid of a lot of staff.  Researchers and investigative journalists typically took the heaviest blows from these measures.  So you have less people, doing more work than ever.

Given how government in the mid 90s tended to be dominated by media savvy types (Alistair Campbell, anyone?), it didn't take governments long to realise how to game the system and introduce misinformation into the news cycle.  Up to 70% of all stories on any given day in the UK come directly from wire agencies, meaning in probability at least 50% of news comes from government PR types.  Through the careful manipulating and leaking of information, governments can mislead the public and create popular support for measures people would otherwise be far more sceptical of - such as invading Iraq, for example.  Relying on a mixture of "official releases", ambiguously worded information from government ministers and orchestrated leaks from intelligence agencies and oversight committees, it became very simple to create a sense of unease through disinformation.

Nick Davies, the reporter who broke the phone hacking story, detailed this at great length in his book, Flat Earth News, which is well worth reading.