Principia Discordia

Principia Discordia => Propaganda Depository => Topic started by: Q. G. Pennyworth on February 15, 2017, 07:12:15 pm

Title: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: Q. G. Pennyworth on February 15, 2017, 07:12:15 pm
CC-ND-NC as usual, attribution is tied to the document.

This is a print booklet file. Print doublesided (duplex) flip on short side, then fold in half for delivery. I'll work on an online shareable version eventually.

(http://i.imgur.com/7FBkHvq.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/u2SZQU3.jpg)
Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on February 15, 2017, 11:54:56 pm
Here's my problem. Based on this ideology that people should "suffer as little as possible" there's no end to the punching, which inflicts suffering by definition.

Under this why stop with fascists or white nationalists? What about violent gangs? Independent abusers? Drug dealers and "white collar" criminals that operate within the law like Shrikelli? Is this a call to run around breaking the law in a broader sense?

Don't get me wrong here, I would be all too happy to wreck certain folks. That is a part of my nature that I do not nurture. This pamphlet is an angry dog. It will draw angry folks to the linked organizations. A bunch of Nazi punchers does not an effective resistance make. There has to be an endgame. This does not have one.

If I bought into the fatalism here I might as well become a violent crook myself. I mean under that thin "suffer as little as possible" idea is a swift road to putting folks down as long as you didn't make it hurt too bad.

Martin Luther King was not full of shit. He was the alternative that folks needed to the violent spiral down.

THIS GUY JZellis has probably never actually been in the shit he's abstractly recommending. He's not being straight with anybody from the first line of this.

He IS making an emotional appeal. As far as I can tell that's all it is. It simultaneously disclaims the existence of morality while declaring his contained abstraction to be moral enough to commit to violence over.

Nothing personal QG, but this is not worth distribution as I see it. It's an agitator writing about a violence he does not understand at all. Sorry. I have to say this.

Now that said... if if if if if it comes to that kind of thing, and ideological war with no rules of conflict, you still need to have an endgame and a real strategy. This is doable, but THIS GUY doesn't have any of that in mind as far as I can tell.
Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: Q. G. Pennyworth on February 16, 2017, 12:20:34 am
You can dislike the content, but don't make assumptions about the author's experiences, please.
Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on February 16, 2017, 12:49:07 am
You can dislike the content, but don't make assumptions about the author's experiences, please.

It's not a matter of dislike. It's a matter of seeing rather dangerous folly.

I don't know the author's experiences, but if the author is acquainted with aggressive violence and holds these particular positions on the matter it's malicious and intended to misguide.

Am I incorrect in my guess about the author's probable experience?
Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: Q. G. Pennyworth on February 16, 2017, 01:03:56 am
I believe you are. It's possible I am conflating this person with someone else.
Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: Don Coyote on February 16, 2017, 01:25:13 am
It's never wrong to punch Nazis.
Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on February 16, 2017, 02:27:26 am
It's never wrong to punch Nazis.

I'm very much in favor, but I won't call it "right" or nihilism so hard I negate all concept of morality to pretend it's ok.

Also... is it then also not wrong to kill them? Eventually they will retaliate in deadly fashion feeling that they're martyrs. Why then let any live to do so? See "rite of the blood flag" for details on how that goes. Punching them is certainly emotionally satisfying, but will it effectively defeat them? I doubt it. There will be PLENTY of punching and worse. The punching can't be the only goal or it's never going to end.

Even a captured nazi soldier had rights. They weren't all that strictly recognized in the field, but once taken in... there were trials for actual crimes not punch festivals. We didn't roll through Germany punching civilians that happened to be party members.

There is a part of me that resonates with the author of the pamphlet. That part of me is a rather bad dog that I spent years retraining, still imperfectly. That that part of me is like "Yes FUCKIT!! Let's go get it on!" In response to this is where my mind set to looking at it critically. This author is casting aside morality, law, and reason to justify "punching nazis". He should call a spade a spade, evil deeds as needed, IF needed.

Mind you I'm rather certain that certain evil deeds WILL be needed as this shit won't just go away now. That doesn't bother me. A bunch of unfocused, retaliatory vigilantes taking to "nazi punching" for its own sake really does.

Is it not written in a better pamphlet:

"In the one serious burst of brains that the US has ever had, they decided on the Hershey bar as the war winner. The Axis population had been told that we would rape and murder them when we overran the defenses, but there's this grimy dog-face offering them a Hershey bar and a Lucky Strike."

If the author had ethics to begin with as claimed they went WAY too far to make the punching OK. If not... this is a BAD IDEA given an appealing coating of easy emotional satisfaction and EXCACTLY what the folks building this thing would want "the opposition" to do, whether the author intends such or not.

Edit because I  said "wouldn't want" in the second to last line on accident instead of "would want". They WANT a martyr complex to take hold of as many as possible... fanatics feed on it.
Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: Don Coyote on February 16, 2017, 02:46:10 am
It's never wrong to punch Nazis.

I'm very much in favor, but I won't call it "right" or nihilism so hard I negate all concept of morality to pretend it's ok.

Also... is it then also not wrong to kill them? Eventually they will retaliate in deadly fashion feeling that they're martyrs. Why then let any live to do so? See "rite of the blood flag" for details on how that goes. Punching them is certainly emotionally satisfying, but will it effectively defeat them? I doubt it. There will be PLENTY of punching and worse. The punching can't be the only goal or it's never going to end.

Even a captured nazi soldier had rights. They weren't all that strictly recognized in the field, but once taken in... there were trials for actual crimes not punch festivals. We didn't roll through Germany punching civilians that happened to be party members.

There is a part of me that resonates with the author of the pamphlet. That part of me is a rather bad dog that I spent years retraining, still imperfectly. That that part of me is like "Yes FUCKIT!! Let's go get it on!" In response to this is where my mind set to looking at it critically. This author is casting aside morality, law, and reason to justify "punching nazis". He should call a spade a spade, evil deeds as needed, IF needed.

Mind you I'm rather certain that certain evil deeds WILL be needed as this shit won't just go away now. That doesn't bother me. A bunch of unfocused, retaliatory vigilantes taking to "nazi punching" for its own sake really does.

Is it not written in a better pamphlet:

"In the one serious burst of brains that the US has ever had, they decided on the Hershey bar as the war winner. The Axis population had been told that we would rape and murder them when we overran the defenses, but there's this grimy dog-face offering them a Hershey bar and a Lucky Strike."

If the author had ethics to begin with as claimed they went WAY too far to make the punching OK. If not... this is a BAD IDEA given an appealing coating of easy emotional satisfaction and EXCACTLY what the folks building this thing wouldn't want "the opposition" to do, whether the author intends such or not.

So, like I was soldier, right? And, like, in the context of POWs sure. I'm not a soldier. As a soldier, I would be compelled to act within the laws of war, which precludes such things. I am not a soldier. I don't give a shit about the "legality" of punching Nazis.

I'm not saying people should go out hunting Nazis or killing them, but I'm also not going to shed any fucking tears over dead Nazis. Nuance is for adults having conversations about reasonable things. Nuance is not what is needed when dealing Nazis, especially its frightful rise in this age. If you want to clutch pearls and philosophize over whether it is or isn't evil to use violence to shut up Nazis, go ahead. It's cute, in the way that philosophizing over whether the fucking barstool is and/or isn't solid, only the question of whether the barstool possesses solidity does not make a case for the extermination of "impure" races.

Or you could sit on your ass masturbating about how it's evil to use violence on evil people which taints you with evil until you yourself are no better than the Nazi you just punch. Go ahead, yank your rod about your ideological purity. Or masturbate on how "heroic" it will be to wrestle with your "evil deeds" or whatever fucking shit you got in your head.

Or you can grow up, and accept that some people, to use that loosely, only understand the language of their teeth being shoved into their mouth.
Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on February 16, 2017, 03:21:17 am
It's never wrong to punch Nazis.

I'm very much in favor, but I won't call it "right" or nihilism so hard I negate all concept of morality to pretend it's ok.

Also... is it then also not wrong to kill them? Eventually they will retaliate in deadly fashion feeling that they're martyrs. Why then let any live to do so? See "rite of the blood flag" for details on how that goes. Punching them is certainly emotionally satisfying, but will it effectively defeat them? I doubt it. There will be PLENTY of punching and worse. The punching can't be the only goal or it's never going to end.

Even a captured nazi soldier had rights. They weren't all that strictly recognized in the field, but once taken in... there were trials for actual crimes not punch festivals. We didn't roll through Germany punching civilians that happened to be party members.

There is a part of me that resonates with the author of the pamphlet. That part of me is a rather bad dog that I spent years retraining, still imperfectly. That that part of me is like "Yes FUCKIT!! Let's go get it on!" In response to this is where my mind set to looking at it critically. This author is casting aside morality, law, and reason to justify "punching nazis". He should call a spade a spade, evil deeds as needed, IF needed.

Mind you I'm rather certain that certain evil deeds WILL be needed as this shit won't just go away now. That doesn't bother me. A bunch of unfocused, retaliatory vigilantes taking to "nazi punching" for its own sake really does.

Is it not written in a better pamphlet:

"In the one serious burst of brains that the US has ever had, they decided on the Hershey bar as the war winner. The Axis population had been told that we would rape and murder them when we overran the defenses, but there's this grimy dog-face offering them a Hershey bar and a Lucky Strike."

If the author had ethics to begin with as claimed they went WAY too far to make the punching OK. If not... this is a BAD IDEA given an appealing coating of easy emotional satisfaction and EXCACTLY what the folks building this thing wouldn't want "the opposition" to do, whether the author intends such or not.

So, like I was soldier, right? And, like, in the context of POWs sure. I'm not a soldier. As a soldier, I would be compelled to act within the laws of war, which precludes such things. I am not a soldier. I don't give a shit about the "legality" of punching Nazis.

I'm not saying people should go out hunting Nazis or killing them, but I'm also not going to shed any fucking tears over dead Nazis. Nuance is for adults having conversations about reasonable things. Nuance is not what is needed when dealing Nazis, especially its frightful rise in this age. If you want to clutch pearls and philosophize over whether it is or isn't evil to use violence to shut up Nazis, go ahead. It's cute, in the way that philosophizing over whether the fucking barstool is and/or isn't solid, only the question of whether the barstool possesses solidity does not make a case for the extermination of "impure" races.

Or you could sit on your ass masturbating about how it's evil to use violence on evil people which taints you with evil until you yourself are no better than the Nazi you just punch. Go ahead, yank your rod about your ideological purity. Or masturbate on how "heroic" it will be to wrestle with your "evil deeds" or whatever fucking shit you got in your head.

Or you can grow up, and accept that some people, to use that loosely, only understand the language of their teeth being shoved into their mouth.


But I did, and I do. What comes after that? What purpose is that to be put to?
Do you just expect that the problem will resolve if ya punch enough nazis? If so how many do you figure is enough?

I'm not against violence as a deed at all. I'm against it as an end in itself, as the pamphlet I'm looking at ITT seems to call for folks without your experiences to engage in.
Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on February 16, 2017, 06:32:30 am
Here's my problem. Based on this ideology that people should "suffer as little as possible" there's no end to the punching, which inflicts suffering by definition.

Under this why stop with fascists or white nationalists? What about violent gangs? Independent abusers? Drug dealers and "white collar" criminals that operate within the law like Shrikelli? Is this a call to run around breaking the law in a broader sense?

Don't get me wrong here, I would be all too happy to wreck certain folks. That is a part of my nature that I do not nurture. This pamphlet is an angry dog. It will draw angry folks to the linked organizations. A bunch of Nazi punchers does not an effective resistance make. There has to be an endgame. This does not have one.

If I bought into the fatalism here I might as well become a violent crook myself. I mean under that thin "suffer as little as possible" idea is a swift road to putting folks down as long as you didn't make it hurt too bad.

Martin Luther King was not full of shit. He was the alternative that folks needed to the violent spiral down.

THIS GUY JZellis has probably never actually been in the shit he's abstractly recommending. He's not being straight with anybody from the first line of this.

He IS making an emotional appeal. As far as I can tell that's all it is. It simultaneously disclaims the existence of morality while declaring his contained abstraction to be moral enough to commit to violence over.

Nothing personal QG, but this is not worth distribution as I see it. It's an agitator writing about a violence he does not understand at all. Sorry. I have to say this.

Now that said... if if if if if it comes to that kind of thing, and ideological war with no rules of conflict, you still need to have an endgame and a real strategy. This is doable, but THIS GUY doesn't have any of that in mind as far as I can tell.

You have any fucking clue who Joshua Ellis IS?

Jesus Fucking Christ, man.
Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on February 16, 2017, 06:36:34 am

Even a captured nazi soldier had rights.

If you punch them in the early days, there aren't any Nazi soldiers.
Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on February 16, 2017, 07:41:56 am
Here's my problem. Based on this ideology that people should "suffer as little as possible" there's no end to the punching, which inflicts suffering by definition.

Under this why stop with fascists or white nationalists? What about violent gangs? Independent abusers? Drug dealers and "white collar" criminals that operate within the law like Shrikelli? Is this a call to run around breaking the law in a broader sense?

Don't get me wrong here, I would be all too happy to wreck certain folks. That is a part of my nature that I do not nurture. This pamphlet is an angry dog. It will draw angry folks to the linked organizations. A bunch of Nazi punchers does not an effective resistance make. There has to be an endgame. This does not have one.

If I bought into the fatalism here I might as well become a violent crook myself. I mean under that thin "suffer as little as possible" idea is a swift road to putting folks down as long as you didn't make it hurt too bad.

Martin Luther King was not full of shit. He was the alternative that folks needed to the violent spiral down.

THIS GUY JZellis has probably never actually been in the shit he's abstractly recommending. He's not being straight with anybody from the first line of this.

He IS making an emotional appeal. As far as I can tell that's all it is. It simultaneously disclaims the existence of morality while declaring his contained abstraction to be moral enough to commit to violence over.

Nothing personal QG, but this is not worth distribution as I see it. It's an agitator writing about a violence he does not understand at all. Sorry. I have to say this.

Now that said... if if if if if it comes to that kind of thing, and ideological war with no rules of conflict, you still need to have an endgame and a real strategy. This is doable, but THIS GUY doesn't have any of that in mind as far as I can tell.

You have any fucking clue who Joshua Ellis IS?

Jesus Fucking Christ, man.

No. I'm going to look it up. But even so JZellis is what I had to work with. I didn't look up the twitter or FB. Wasn't that into the thing, but I am now.


Even a captured nazi soldier had rights.

If you punch them in the early days, there aren't any Nazi soldiers.


I'm REALLY ok with the punching of the Nazis, taking of their resources, shitting upon their whatever they have to be shat on. Nazis aren't the only folks I'm ok about that on. I want to never find myself looking at a registered soldier of a "white nation", or a "christian" one for that matter, that used to be a fellow US citizen. If some of the dirty needs doing to prevent that OK. But I won't back down from all my other concerns here.

going to go google this Joshua Ellis and try to get some sleep.

Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on February 16, 2017, 08:56:53 am
He sounds like a nice guy.  I'm far from an expert on his past at this point, but I'm going with my first guess unless someone here can correct me specifically: Never committed to an assault in his life, maybe a defensive scenario or just possibly a few barfights. He should be focusing on teaching technology to underprivileged persons, as he claims to want to do in his blog.

I withdraw my question of malice as he almost certainly only understands what he's really advocating in the abstract. It's one thing to speak about violence, another entirely to live with it, another still to actually commit to the act and consequences of "punching a nazi". The dangerous folly part remains. He tells a fine story and has a LOT of other talent. I personally think it's a shame that he wrote this. Not that he should BE ashamed. I just think his talents are more suitable to better things.

See it's not about sucker punching silly twits like Spencer or some Kukboi alt-right memeshit that looks like your little brother. You have to account for the skinheads, bikers, gun nuts, crooked spies and other chucklefucks that WILL BE looking to get payback eventually and have PLENTY of intel folk to guide them.

He doesn't know what he's advocating really. He sure does know how to appeal to emotion and write though. He should be trying to undo their bulkshit Nazi worldview not inciting goodly folk to a punch festival they're not yet ready for that inevitably will escalate into some REAL SHIT with a terrible quickness.
Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: Q. G. Pennyworth on February 16, 2017, 11:44:07 am
You are being condescending as shit right now.
Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: LMNO on February 16, 2017, 01:01:19 pm
I don't really want to get into this too much, so let me just point at a few things for TWJ to do:

1. Ponder the difference in morality needs to be addressed, viz the non-nazi and the nazi, when it comes to violence.

2. Extrapolate the difference between "a single non-nazi person punching a nazi vs all nazis" and "setting a universal standard for all non-nazis to punch all nazis".

3. Move your protestations from a Platonic Ideal of a world to the world in which we are currently living.
Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on February 16, 2017, 03:44:48 pm
You are being condescending as shit right now.

I'm not trying to be insulting. I've said all that I can really say.  I have no control over how people take it or the outcome of this.

But I said what I think. If it comes off as condescending maybe I'm a little too arrogant or something. But I felt it needed to be addressed without dressing it up.

I don't really want to get into this too much, so let me just point at a few things for TWJ to do:

1. Ponder the difference in morality needs to be addressed, viz the non-nazi and the nazi, when it comes to violence.

2. Extrapolate the difference between "a single non-nazi person punching a nazi vs all nazis" and "setting a universal standard for all non-nazis to punch all nazis".

3. Move your protestations from a Platonic Ideal of a world to the world in which we are currently living.

I'm going to chew on these a while.
Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on February 16, 2017, 04:51:23 pm
Hey, so I have real-world experience with this topic. I can tell you what happened here.

Oregon is a deeply racist state founded on a racist premise; a nigger-free state. Needless to say, historically we have had enormous problems with racism even once the state got to the point of recognizing that the "no blacks allowed" law was an insane farce that couldn't be permitted to continue. Fast forward to the 1980's; white nationalists were operating openly here, seeking to make this area a white nationalist haven. They were attacking people on the streets; blacks, gays, jews, whoever they felt didn't belong in their fantasy of a white utopia. The police were of no help, being racist as fuck themselves and deeply infiltrated by white nationalists.

Some people died. From being beaten to death by Nazis while minding their own fucking business. One of them was a college student from Africa named Mulugeta Seraw. This made national news. This is when things changed.

The local punks had been clashing with the local skinheads for quite some time, and punks had no qualms about punching nazis. Mr. Seraw's death put not only Portland's Nazi problem, but also the punk resistance to the Nazi problem, in front of a lot of eyes. Punks and SHARPs started moving to Portland to punch Nazis.

And things changed. The streets were made safe for, well, me. And everyone else I knew. We could literally get a punk or SHARP escort if we had to walk alone at night. The police didn't help, but they didn't hinder, either, and it was a sea change for Portland culture. IT CHANGED EVERYTHING. Punching Nazis is literally what made Portland what it is today; if that hadn't happened, Portland would never have become a sweet liberal destination town. It wouldn't be safe.

So shut up with the bullshit clueless holier-than-though moralizing, and punch a Nazi today.
Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on February 16, 2017, 04:58:28 pm
No. I'm going to look it up. But even so JZellis is what I had to work with. I didn't look up the twitter or FB. Wasn't that into the thing, but I am now.

And what do you find when you type "JZellis" into Google? Maybe slightly more information from which to build an informed opinion?
Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: LMNO on February 16, 2017, 05:00:25 pm
Nigel, I feel that if you had the time to type that up into a several-thousand-word-long article/story, it could go viral on Medium or something.

I know that you don't have the time right now, but wanted to give you that compliment.
Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on February 16, 2017, 05:03:15 pm
He sounds like a nice guy.  I'm far from an expert on his past at this point, but I'm going with my first guess unless someone here can correct me specifically: Never committed to an assault in his life, maybe a defensive scenario or just possibly a few barfights. He should be focusing on teaching technology to underprivileged persons, as he claims to want to do in his blog.

I withdraw my question of malice as he almost certainly only understands what he's really advocating in the abstract. It's one thing to speak about violence, another entirely to live with it, another still to actually commit to the act and consequences of "punching a nazi". The dangerous folly part remains. He tells a fine story and has a LOT of other talent. I personally think it's a shame that he wrote this. Not that he should BE ashamed. I just think his talents are more suitable to better things.

See it's not about sucker punching silly twits like Spencer or some Kukboi alt-right memeshit that looks like your little brother. You have to account for the skinheads, bikers, gun nuts, crooked spies and other chucklefucks that WILL BE looking to get payback eventually and have PLENTY of intel folk to guide them.

He doesn't know what he's advocating really. He sure does know how to appeal to emotion and write though. He should be trying to undo their bulkshit Nazi worldview not inciting goodly folk to a punch festival they're not yet ready for that inevitably will escalate into some REAL SHIT with a terrible quickness.

Given Ellis's personal history, I'm just going to walk away at this point.
Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: Salty on February 16, 2017, 05:12:46 pm
Here's my problem. Based on this ideology that people should "suffer as little as possible" there's no end to the punching, which inflicts suffering by definition.

Under this why stop with fascists or white nationalists? What about violent gangs? Independent abusers? Drug dealers and "white collar" criminals that operate within the law like Shrikelli? Is this a call to run around breaking the law in a broader sense?

Don't get me wrong here, I would be all too happy to wreck certain folks. That is a part of my nature that I do not nurture. This pamphlet is an angry dog. It will draw angry folks to the linked organizations. A bunch of Nazi punchers does not an effective resistance make. There has to be an endgame. This does not have one.

If I bought into the fatalism here I might as well become a violent crook myself. I mean under that thin "suffer as little as possible" idea is a swift road to putting folks down as long as you didn't make it hurt too bad.

Martin Luther King was not full of shit. He was the alternative that folks needed to the violent spiral down.

THIS GUY JZellis has probably never actually been in the shit he's abstractly recommending. He's not being straight with anybody from the first line of this.

He IS making an emotional appeal. As far as I can tell that's all it is. It simultaneously disclaims the existence of morality while declaring his contained abstraction to be moral enough to commit to violence over.

Nothing personal QG, but this is not worth distribution as I see it. It's an agitator writing about a violence he does not understand at all. Sorry. I have to say this.

Now that said... if if if if if it comes to that kind of thing, and ideological war with no rules of conflict, you still need to have an endgame and a real strategy. This is doable, but THIS GUY doesn't have any of that in mind as far as I can tell.

Just because you CAN post a thing, doesn't mean you should. There are plenty half-formed, uninformed thoughts that I don't share here because it doesn't belong ANYWHERE.

Quote
Wasn't that into the thing, but I am now.

Then, maybe you should have not posted something so contentious? Maybe? Maybe you had no fucking end game here?

Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on February 16, 2017, 05:13:06 pm
Nigel, I feel that if you had the time to type that up into a several-thousand-word-long article/story, it could go viral on Medium or something.

I know that you don't have the time right now, but wanted to give you that compliment.

Thank you! I will bear that in mind, because maybe Portland's story needs to be viral. "How Punching Nazis saved Portland".
Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: Salty on February 16, 2017, 05:17:59 pm
I don't know who Rosa Parks is, I am not that invested in this discussion. But what I do know is that sitting on the front seat of a bus and refusing to get up is no way to enact change. What's next? Not getting out of the way on sidewalks? There's no end game to that kind of thing.
        /
 :joshua:
Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on February 16, 2017, 05:21:08 pm
Joseph,

It occurs to me, reading many of your posts, that you are a smart guy who, like many smart guys, did really well as a kid just by thinking about things, having ideas, and forming opinions based solely on thinking about stuff. Being smart and good at thinking can earn a lot of praise and respect, and is intellectually rewarding in itself. The problem is, once you're not a kid anymore, the conclusions you come to just through thinking about stuff is no longer enough, especially if you are dealing with other smart thinky people who have also learned disciplined background research and data collection. In that sort of circumstance, if you charge into a topic armed with nothing but thinking, you will look like kind of a fool, because the others are armed with thinking, AND with background research and data.

My advice to you is to leverage your thinking skills by augmenting them with background research, so that your thinking and conclusions are meaningful within the context of the topic at hand. If you start to feel an opinion coming on, before you sit down and write three lengthy paragraphs expounding on what you think about your topic, sit down and research the background and context around your topic. That way, you will avoid aging into an unfortunate blowhard.
Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on February 16, 2017, 05:41:44 pm
Joseph,

It occurs to me, reading many of your posts, that you are a smart guy who, like many smart guys, did really well as a kid just by thinking about things, having ideas, and forming opinions based solely on thinking about stuff. Being smart and good at thinking can earn a lot of praise and respect, and is intellectually rewarding in itself. The problem is, once you're not a kid anymore, the conclusions you come to just through thinking about stuff is no longer enough, especially if you are dealing with other smart thinky people who have also learned disciplined background research and data collection. In that sort of circumstance, if you charge into a topic armed with nothing but thinking, you will look like kind of a fool, because the others are armed with thinking, AND with background research and data.

My advice to you is to leverage your thinking skills by augmenting them with background research, so that your thinking and conclusions are meaningful within the context of the topic at hand. If you start to feel an opinion coming on, before you sit down and write three lengthy paragraphs expounding on what you think about your topic, sit down and research the background and context around your topic. That way, you will avoid aging into an unfortunate blowhard.

I'm going to work on this.
Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on February 16, 2017, 05:50:37 pm
He sounds like a nice guy.  I'm far from an expert on his past at this point, but I'm going with my first guess unless someone here can correct me specifically: Never committed to an assault in his life, maybe a defensive scenario or just possibly a few barfights. He should be focusing on teaching technology to underprivileged persons, as he claims to want to do in his blog.

I withdraw my question of malice as he almost certainly only understands what he's really advocating in the abstract. It's one thing to speak about violence, another entirely to live with it, another still to actually commit to the act and consequences of "punching a nazi". The dangerous folly part remains. He tells a fine story and has a LOT of other talent. I personally think it's a shame that he wrote this. Not that he should BE ashamed. I just think his talents are more suitable to better things.

See it's not about sucker punching silly twits like Spencer or some Kukboi alt-right memeshit that looks like your little brother. You have to account for the skinheads, bikers, gun nuts, crooked spies and other chucklefucks that WILL BE looking to get payback eventually and have PLENTY of intel folk to guide them.

He doesn't know what he's advocating really. He sure does know how to appeal to emotion and write though. He should be trying to undo their bulkshit Nazi worldview not inciting goodly folk to a punch festival they're not yet ready for that inevitably will escalate into some REAL SHIT with a terrible quickness.

Given Ellis's personal history, I'm just going to walk away at this point.

I'm going to do more digging than just scanning his FB, Twitter, and reading his first couple of presented articles on his "Zenarchery" blog.
Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on February 17, 2017, 01:40:44 am
I'm not going to take everything I said back, but I would like to admit to an emotional bias now that I've read more of his stuff.

I read a pamphlet by someone I didn't know shit about that lost me, and I kinda lost it, at "Martin Luther King was full of shit." I still disagree with other bits that don't matter at all as far as actual nazi punching may be concerned. It overall very much made me want to punch said then-unknown author along with any possible nazis. I still can't say that I LIKE him very much, but he's seen more than enough "real shit" to say what he pleases and I'm not in meaningful disagreement with his worldview.

My compromise: I will put extra stank on the first actual moment of nazi punching I may get into in defense of a person who may need it. I apologize for my hasty judgement of the author, but the other things that have nothing to do with my perception of the author and that I have misgivings about I can't apologize for. I do need to think them over. A lot.

To the board, I'm sorry for any unnecessary distress or upset that my angry feels fest caused. There's enough shit in the air without adding my own.

Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: Don Coyote on February 17, 2017, 01:48:38 am


To the board, I'm sorry for any unnecessary distress or upset that my angry feels fest caused. There's enough shit in the air without adding my own.

This didn't greatly alter the opinion of you that I already had. Read in to that what you will.
Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on February 17, 2017, 03:09:26 am


To the board, I'm sorry for any unnecessary distress or upset that my angry feels fest caused. There's enough shit in the air without adding my own.

This didn't greatly alter the opinion of you that I already had. Read in to that what you will.

No.
Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on February 19, 2017, 04:33:56 am
(http://quotesarea.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/A-riot-is-the-language-of-the-unheard.jpg)
Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on February 19, 2017, 01:25:33 pm
(http://quotesarea.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/A-riot-is-the-language-of-the-unheard.jpg)

Sounds like a guy who's not "full of shit" to me.
Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: Vanadium Gryllz on February 19, 2017, 01:41:39 pm
Why are you so hung up on that one line and why are you ignoring the context that it is written in?
Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on February 19, 2017, 02:22:16 pm
Why are you so hung up on that one line and why are you ignoring the context that it is written in?

I'm getting over it. I'm not quite there yet. I wasn't ignoring all of the other context, I projected a bunch of stuff that wasn't there upon an author I knew nothing about.


I SHOULD have just bitten all of it back, but I got from that line the distinct impression that the author was the one full of shit. But I'm getting over it, slowly.
Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on February 19, 2017, 03:09:54 pm
(http://quotesarea.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/A-riot-is-the-language-of-the-unheard.jpg)

Sounds like a guy who's not "full of shit" to me.

The point I was making by posting that is that even MLK, the man you are so twisted in a knot over seeing criticized (the same criticism, by the way, that many many Black civil-rights activists have also levied toward him) recognized that violent protest was the inevitable result of having peaceful protest ignored.

And chew on this for a second: why is MLK lionized, while Malcolm X is demonized? There is one big reason. One really, really big one.

MLK is more palatable to white people than Malcolm X. He's the soft-serve version of the 20th-century civil rights activist. Not that he was not a great man, a great leader, and a great orator -- just that the story of the civil rights movement (the one that earned me the legal right to exist, mind you, as more than the forbidden effluvia of sinful abomination) is much broader than the one white schoolchildren are spoonfed. The school system pushes the narrative that this one nice kind peaceful Black man changed everything for his formerly violent stupid people.

That is NOT the real story. Not the whole story, and a lie by omission is still a lie.

So, sorry you're fucking trapped in your own culturally-instilled sheltered (and at this point, wilfull) ignorance. Read a book or something.

Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on February 19, 2017, 03:26:41 pm
That is the same reason, by the way, that so many white people think the original Black Panthers were a hate group analogous to the KKK.


Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: Q. G. Pennyworth on February 19, 2017, 03:34:12 pm
Saying MLK is full of shit, especially setting it in its own paragraph like Ellis did, and then slightly increasing the font like I did, is a deliberate memebomb. People in the US love MLK by default. White supremacists even cherrypick his words to support their actions or condemn modern day civil rights activists. He is as close to a saint as the US has at an official level.

It causes significant cognitive dissonance to see anyone criticize him, especially bluntly, and most especially someone who is advocating for the rights of minorities. Your gut reaction is normal and appropriate. What happens after that is up to you. When I'm a biped, memebombs make me frown and grump still, but they also make me examine the underlying cause of the dissonance. They put me in a position where I can alter my worldview if I need to. When I'm a screeching baboon, well, I just get mad and make an ass of myself.

MLK was not a saint. Every word that came out of his mouth was not Wisdom From On High. He probably had an affair, his farts smelled bad, he probably picked his nose. He changed his views on some things over the course of his life, and he was critical of Nice White People in ways that would make their skin crawl. He was a complex human being, and bore little resemblance to the white marble saint of himself that's worshiped today.

Ellis is firing shots at St. MLK, and it's a good thing. You should never accept a pantheon blindly.
Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on February 19, 2017, 03:42:42 pm
Saying MLK is full of shit, especially setting it in its own paragraph like Ellis did, and then slightly increasing the font like I did, is a deliberate memebomb. People in the US love MLK by default. White supremacists even cherrypick his words to support their actions or condemn modern day civil rights activists. He is as close to a saint as the US has at an official level.

It causes significant cognitive dissonance to see anyone criticize him, especially bluntly, and most especially someone who is advocating for the rights of minorities. Your gut reaction is normal and appropriate. What happens after that is up to you. When I'm a biped, memebombs make me frown and grump still, but they also make me examine the underlying cause of the dissonance. They put me in a position where I can alter my worldview if I need to. When I'm a screeching baboon, well, I just get mad and make an ass of myself.

MLK was not a saint. Every word that came out of his mouth was not Wisdom From On High. He probably had an affair, his farts smelled bad, he probably picked his nose. He changed his views on some things over the course of his life, and he was critical of Nice White People in ways that would make their skin crawl. He was a complex human being, and bore little resemblance to the white marble saint of himself that's worshiped today.

Ellis is firing shots at St. MLK, and it's a good thing. You should never accept a pantheon blindly.

This.
Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on February 19, 2017, 04:09:58 pm
That is the same reason, by the way, that so many white people think the original Black Panthers were a hate group analogous to the KKK.

You're right that I need to learn a lot more, of course. I'm well aware of the exclusion of Malcom X but no expert. I NEVER considered the Black Panthers to be a "KKK analgous hate group." I'm not a big fan of the Nation of Islam either, but I consider both to be rightful resistance groups. I DO have a lot more to learn.

You seem to think that I'm against violent protest. I'm not. Not even a little bit. I'm against knee-jerk reactionism and think that the thing needs to be done with a better doctrine than the OP document implies. There has to be hope behind the rage. Perhaps, if you have not, please read Mr. Ellis' stuff and please tell me what you think on it. I'm still having some trouble pinning down where in his history he's earned his right to criticize anyone at all.

I'm not willfully ignorant. I'm working on remedying it. Give me time and you'll see it, but don't think that I'm some fluffy piece of wonderbread either. I'm not.

Saying MLK is full of shit, especially setting it in its own paragraph like Ellis did, and then slightly increasing the font like I did, is a deliberate memebomb. People in the US love MLK by default. White supremacists even cherrypick his words to support their actions or condemn modern day civil rights activists. He is as close to a saint as the US has at an official level.

It causes significant cognitive dissonance to see anyone criticize him, especially bluntly, and most especially someone who is advocating for the rights of minorities. Your gut reaction is normal and appropriate. What happens after that is up to you. When I'm a biped, memebombs make me frown and grump still, but they also make me examine the underlying cause of the dissonance. They put me in a position where I can alter my worldview if I need to. When I'm a screeching baboon, well, I just get mad and make an ass of myself.

MLK was not a saint. Every word that came out of his mouth was not Wisdom From On High. He probably had an affair, his farts smelled bad, he probably picked his nose. He changed his views on some things over the course of his life, and he was critical of Nice White People in ways that would make their skin crawl. He was a complex human being, and bore little resemblance to the white marble saint of himself that's worshiped today.

Ellis is firing shots at St. MLK, and it's a good thing. You should never accept a pantheon blindly.

This.

Sure. I get that, but don't think that's the way to do it because it's broadly dismissive to just say he was full of shit. I don't worship at some paper idol, as is common admittedly. I don't think this "memebomb" is well built or well tatgeted.

That said... I'm going to shut up on the matter until I can do better. That's going to take a whole lot of study time.
Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: tyrannosaurus vex on February 19, 2017, 05:00:15 pm
I didn't get the impression that MLK was being broadly dismissed at all. He is invoked because he is a sacred cow of Polite America, and the piece surgically targets his assertion that there is some moral arc of the universe bending toward justice -- a flowery, inspirational notion that unfortunately has no basis in reality -- for its criticism. And it is wholly appropriate, especially now, when we have this weird debate over whether it's okay to punch Nazis, as if they are the victims here. Ten years ago, few people were out looking to punch Nazis because it was generally accepted that if a Nazi were to venture out from under the rock in Idaho where they swarm like cockroaches, the inevitable result would be.... that they would get punched. Indeed, in Nigel's brief history of Portland, we see that punching Nazis is a time-honored tradition, and for good reason.

Nazis, and all white supremacists, exist for the singular purpose of inflicting violence on others as soon as they have any opportunity. Their violence predates any fists that may come their way, and in fact they are already guilty of a committing kind of violence in this present historical episode just by showing their faces in daylight and intimidating their targets by their suddenly ubiquitous presence on social media, television, and rallies. The notion that we must wait for them to fire up the gas chambers and load people onto trains is itself violent, in that it assumes some number of victims must be expended before we can justify saving others. The fact that we are even debating this is ludicrous.
Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: Salty on February 19, 2017, 05:09:57 pm
Sure I get that.
    /
:joshua:









I don't get that.
    /
:joshua:
Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on February 19, 2017, 05:13:41 pm
I didn't get the impression that MLK was being broadly dismissed at all. He is invoked because he is a sacred cow of Polite America, and the piece surgically targets his assertion that there is some moral arc of the universe bending toward justice -- a flowery, inspirational notion that unfortunately has no basis in reality -- for its criticism. And it is wholly appropriate, especially now, when we have this weird debate over whether it's okay to punch Nazis, as if they are the victims here. Ten years ago, few people were out looking to punch Nazis because it was generally accepted that if a Nazi were to venture out from under the rock in Idaho where they swarm like cockroaches, the inevitable result would be.... that they would get punched. Indeed, in Nigel's brief history of Portland, we see that punching Nazis is a time-honored tradition, and for good reason.

Nazis, and all white supremacists, exist for the singular purpose of inflicting violence on others as soon as they have any opportunity. Their violence predates any fists that may come their way, and in fact they are already guilty of a committing kind of violence in this present historical episode just by showing their faces in daylight and intimidating their targets by their suddenly ubiquitous presence on social media, television, and rallies. The notion that we must wait for them to fire up the gas chambers and load people onto trains is itself violent, in that it assumes some number of victims must be expended before we can justify saving others. The fact that we are even debating this is ludicrous.

Also, this.
Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on February 19, 2017, 05:23:12 pm
I'm against knee-jerk reactionism

HOLY SHIT you think that punching Nazis is "knee-jerk reactionism"???? 

WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK, DO YOU EVEN KNOW WHAT NAZIS ARE?

Quote
and think that the thing needs to be done with a better doctrine than the OP document implies.

Uhhhhhhhh so you aren't opposed to punching Nazis, you just think that there needs to be a better ideology  than "fuck off, you Nazis"? Are you for fucking real here, what even

Quote
There has to be hope behind the rage.

Going WAAYYYYYYY out on a limb here, but I suspect that maybe, JUST MAYBE, the hope is that we will not be overrun by Nazis and their genocidal agenda.

Quote
Perhaps, if you have not, please read Mr. Ellis' stuff and please tell me what you think on it. I'm still having some trouble pinning down where in his history he's earned his right to criticize anyone at all.


Sure, I definitely have time to do a bunch of superfluous reading and analysis for you so that I can spoonfeed you an informed opinion.

Quote
I'm not willfully ignorant. I'm working on remedying it. Give me time and you'll see it, but don't think that I'm some fluffy piece of wonderbread either. I'm not.

Prove it. It's been over 96 hours, which in my world is plenty of time to get middling-deep in articles.

Quote
Sure. I get that, but don't think that's the way to do it because it's broadly dismissive to just say he was full of shit. I don't worship at some paper idol, as is common admittedly. I don't think this "memebomb" is well built or well tatgeted.

You keep repeating that you don't think it's a good point, or an effective one. I do. Gogira does. Salty does. Vex does. Xaz does. Coyote does. LMNO does. I wonder if it's possible that we are all seeing aspects to this that you don't see, or if it's simply that you are the only thinking person in a world of sheep?
Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: Salty on February 19, 2017, 05:26:39 pm
Quote
I'm still having some trouble pinning down where in his history he's earned his right to criticize anyone at all.

Maybe you want to re-read that sentence a few times. Maybe print it out and put it above your workstation.

Still having trouble? I will break it down then.

:stfu2:
Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on February 19, 2017, 05:28:29 pm
I'm still having some trouble pinning down where in his history he's earned his right to criticize anyone at all.

I just have to return to this mind-boggling shitshow of a post for one moment, to ask what kinds of credentials a person needs in order to earn the right to be critical.

What are your credentials?

Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: Salty on February 19, 2017, 05:29:55 pm
Remember, kids, rights to criticized are earned.
           /
 :hitlerbanjo:
Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: Salty on February 19, 2017, 05:31:25 pm
ITT, the scene in Where the Red Fern Grows where the raccoon gets caught in that trap with a tiny piece of metal on the inside, and he could get free if he just let go of that little piece of metal, but he can't because he's a raccoon.
Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on February 19, 2017, 05:32:14 pm
"I'm totally going to do the work to inform myself, right after I argue about it some more for a few days and ask someone else to do the work for me".
Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on February 19, 2017, 05:35:04 pm
"It's not that I'm against killing Custer; I just think we need a better ideology than "eliminating the immediate genocidal threat", you know what I mean?"
Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on February 19, 2017, 05:42:07 pm
Ok. I see that I'm a big damn fool and should be the shutting up now.

Maybe one day that will change. I'm letting go. For fuck sake I wish I was better at not opening my mouth in the first place, but I'm kind of a dumbass and need to learn that the hard way.
Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on February 19, 2017, 05:51:40 pm
I have a thing that I like to remind myself, which is essentially that if I want to be a contrarian jerk, I'd better first make sure I'm right.
Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: Salty on February 19, 2017, 06:00:24 pm
I just want to point out a commonly unspoken and maybe misunderstood fact of life:

Punching NAZIs is the REASONABLE and CAREFULLY MEASURED response to NAZIs. It is the initial step, like firing across an enemy's bow. The follow-up, should the punching not work, is KILLING them. Most people don't want to kill anybody, NAZI punchers probably don't more often than not. But the thing is, usually, you're not given much choice in the end, kill or be killed or worse.

So, yeah.
Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on February 19, 2017, 06:02:24 pm
I just want to point out a commonly unspoken and maybe misunderstood fact of life:

Punching NAZIs is the REASONABLE and CAREFULLY MEASURED response to NAZIs. It is the initial step, like firing across an enemy's bow. The follow-up, should the punching not work, is KILLING them. Most people don't want to kill anybody, NAZI punchers probably don't more often than not. But the thing is, usually, you're not given much choice in the end, kill or be killed or worse.

So, yeah.

This is also true. If we punch them now, maybe we can shut down the Nazi movement before a whole lot of people get very irretrievably dead.

Or maybe we're supposed to hold off on punching them in case the Nazis aren't going to be genocidal this time.
Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: MMIX on February 19, 2017, 06:46:11 pm
TWJ, you better learn to be aware of context before you go back into education or you are just going to be wasting your time and a load of public money. FWIW I had no idea who the author is either. I do now.  To be honest I personally don't think that understanding about Ellis' life is at all important to understanding why you are apparently in a minority of one over your overreaction to what he said.

That is because you did not react to what he actually said. That you are still making weird disgruntled noises about the reaction that your outburst garnered means that you still haven't heard what Ellis was actually saying.
 
I'm going to insert two things into the original text so that you can see what everybody else is reading, as opposed to the anti-MLK diss that you seem to be seeing


"Martin Luther King once said "the arc of the moral universe is long but it bends towards justice" THEREFORE ON THIS POINT AND  THIS POINT ALONE I SAY THAT Martin Luther King was full of shit BECAUSE There is no moral universe."

The point is about the existence of a moral universe. 
Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: tyrannosaurus vex on February 19, 2017, 06:51:59 pm
I just want to point out a commonly unspoken and maybe misunderstood fact of life:

Punching NAZIs is the REASONABLE and CAREFULLY MEASURED response to NAZIs. It is the initial step, like firing across an enemy's bow. The follow-up, should the punching not work, is KILLING them. Most people don't want to kill anybody, NAZI punchers probably don't more often than not. But the thing is, usually, you're not given much choice in the end, kill or be killed or worse.

So, yeah.

This is also true. If we punch them now, maybe we can shut down the Nazi movement before a whole lot of people get very irretrievably dead.

Or maybe we're supposed to hold off on punching them in case the Nazis aren't going to be genocidal this time.

Nazis, and their counterparts in every place at every time, are an unfortunate but inseparable thread in the tapestry of human civilization. So it isn't like we're going to punch them into non-existence. But punching them is still the moral high ground compared to letting their movement fester and metastasize and grow into what we all know they are seeds of.

Unrelatedly, I'm going to posit to my bandmates that we change our band name to "Irretrievably Dead".
Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on February 19, 2017, 07:11:24 pm
I've read the above. I'm working on the context thing and acknowledge my mistake. Just replying to note that I read them.

As a side note "Irretrievably Dead" sounds like a good band name.
Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on February 19, 2017, 09:55:32 pm
TWJ, you better learn to be aware of context before you go back into education or you are just going to be wasting your time and a load of public money. FWIW I had no idea who the author is either. I do now.  To be honest I personally don't think that understanding about Ellis' life is at all important to understanding why you are apparently in a minority of one over your overreaction to what he said.

That is because you did not react to what he actually said. That you are still making weird disgruntled noises about the reaction that your outburst garnered means that you still haven't heard what Ellis was actually saying.
 
I'm going to insert two things into the original text so that you can see what everybody else is reading, as opposed to the anti-MLK diss that you seem to be seeing


"Martin Luther King once said "the arc of the moral universe is long but it bends towards justice" THEREFORE ON THIS POINT AND  THIS POINT ALONE I SAY THAT Martin Luther King was full of shit BECAUSE There is no moral universe."

The point is about the existence of a moral universe.

YESSSSSS thank you for spelling that out, it didn't occur to me to do so but I think you may have nailed the location of the problem.
Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on February 19, 2017, 09:59:17 pm
I just want to point out a commonly unspoken and maybe misunderstood fact of life:

Punching NAZIs is the REASONABLE and CAREFULLY MEASURED response to NAZIs. It is the initial step, like firing across an enemy's bow. The follow-up, should the punching not work, is KILLING them. Most people don't want to kill anybody, NAZI punchers probably don't more often than not. But the thing is, usually, you're not given much choice in the end, kill or be killed or worse.

So, yeah.

This is also true. If we punch them now, maybe we can shut down the Nazi movement before a whole lot of people get very irretrievably dead.

Or maybe we're supposed to hold off on punching them in case the Nazis aren't going to be genocidal this time.

Nazis, and their counterparts in every place at every time, are an unfortunate but inseparable thread in the tapestry of human civilization. So it isn't like we're going to punch them into non-existence. But punching them is still the moral high ground compared to letting their movement fester and metastasize and grow into what we all know they are seeds of.

Unrelatedly, I'm going to posit to my bandmates that we change our band name to "Irretrievably Dead".

Oh, that would be a good band name!

As a sort of aside, it's probably worth noting that if white supremacists were any other color than white, and doing exactly what they do, they would be arrested for terrorism, not punched in the face.

Until our white supremacist government and white supremacist society decides that terrorism is still terrorism when it comes from white people, and is still terrorism when it perpetuates the principles upon which our country was founded, punching white supremacists in the face is kinda all we've got.
Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: LuciferX on February 20, 2017, 10:05:59 pm
Tldr;  something about morals and punching Nazis, might as well help them back right into the propeller of the ride that got them here.  In my limited experience with fascist states from late 20th century Europe, not only are the practitioners simply useful imbeciles, they are also frightened little cowards.  They rely on the false sense of strength derived from their fabricated unity.  Ergo the fascist bundle of blunt, brittle little sticks.  Catch one of them by themselves and it's a very different story.  Their erosion started before they ever even banded together.  Apart from only punching them, which might incidentally embolden them together under something slightly more tangilble than their bigoted principles, the trick I think is to have them implode.

See, with all those extremely intolerant judgemental racists, most of them are only less than a couple of degrees removed from what they proclaim to hate.  The black-eye subsides, and can always serve as a badge of honor.  The fact that their mom's is Jewish, their dad's gay or their brother's black, well, that eats them inside-out:  starting with the weakness that allowed this to happen in the first place.

Just two cents.
Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: LMNO on February 21, 2017, 02:16:01 am
I'm gonna take a softer approach, because I do see some of myself in TWJ's approach.

I'm not violent. I hate violence. I hate expressing anger. As a child, I didn't scrap with the other children, get knocked down, and then grab their hands as a bonded friend.

When I lost my cool and got angry, I would fight to win. No-- I would fight to MAKE IT STOP AS SOON AS POSSIBLE.  This carried over into relationships, where I was unable to have "relationship fights" verbally because when I got angry enough to lose it, I would be utterly awful.

Basically, I'm a huge asshole when I get violent. And I hate that. If I was in Fight Club, every fight would end up with one of us looking like Jared Leto, afterwards.

So I would love to live in a world where punching nazis was not the best option. I would pray to live in a universe where rational debate and moral positions could be explained and accepted. Quite literally, punching anyone is my least favorite option.

And yet. The world I want is not the world I live in. This is hard for me to accept. I want it not to be true.

But here we are. In this world, the extrapolation of not punching nazis is demonstrably worse than punching nazis.

Me not wanting this to be true does not change the universe
Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on February 21, 2017, 03:29:01 am
My experience with violence can be found in my "Who I Am" thread. What I'm willing and able to say on the matter can be found there near the most recent additions to it.

Outside of "philosophy" or any abstraction I personally have a rather grave decision to make on the matter.

Considering that we got several "visitors" spidering the forum that's all I care to say here about my own personal perspective or plans going forward.

I allowed my emotions and deep seated fears about myself to get projected here and personally apologize on the matter of "what I thought" about Mr. Ellis.
Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on February 21, 2017, 10:51:20 pm
Nazis, or at least their ideological descendants, are killing people. They actively embrace and espouse an ideology of violence toward and subjugation of non-white people. This ideology is more than merely unpleasant to think about; it encourages, in fact exhorts, its adherents to pursue violence. This is not just old racist uncle Jim who tells nigger jokes at Thanksgiving; this is an ideology of violence and extremism. Let's not pretend it's just a difference of opinion or a collection of perfectly ordinary racial biases.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2015/06/18/white_extremist_murders_killed_at_least_60_in_u_s_since_1995.html

https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2016/10/17/white-supremacist-confesses-killing-black-man-indiana

https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2016/11/14/white-supremacist-get-death-penalty-oregon-killing

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2016/09/14/white-supremacist-accused-of-running-over-killing-black-teen-faces-new-hate-crime-charge/?utm_term=.2515e2c9be0c

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/king-sims-murdered-white-men-calif-hate-crime-article-1.2887236

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-south-carolina-shooting-roof-idUSKBN14418R

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2017/02/16/fbi-white-supremacist-says-he-planned-to-kill-jews-in-the-spirit-of-dylann-roof.html

It's not just talk, and it's not just garden-variety racism.
Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: hansga on April 26, 2017, 06:41:29 pm
Keep calm and punch Nazis.  8)
Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: Unmelodic Cookery on May 12, 2017, 06:17:32 pm
Today I have discovered that there are people who believe that nazis are still around, while the real nazis were disbanded and either ailed or scattered at the end of WWII.

Now we have buttheads.
Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on May 12, 2017, 10:59:33 pm
Today I have discovered that there are people who believe that nazis are still around, while the real nazis were disbanded and either ailed or scattered at the end of WWII.

Now we have buttheads.

I take it you aren't in the Southwest.

If someone tattoos a swastika on themselves, they're a Nazi.  If you make excuses for them, you're a stupid cunt.
Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: Unmelodic Cookery on May 12, 2017, 11:24:53 pm
Today I have discovered that there are people who believe that nazis are still around, while the real nazis were disbanded and either ailed or scattered at the end of WWII.

Now we have buttheads.

I take it you aren't in the Southwest.

If someone tattoos a swastika on themselves, they're a Nazi.  If you make excuses for them, you're a stupid cunt.

I just call those dudes buttheads. They've got dem shaved heads and walk around like that. Like butts.
Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on May 12, 2017, 11:26:55 pm
Today I have discovered that there are people who believe that nazis are still around, while the real nazis were disbanded and either ailed or scattered at the end of WWII.

Now we have buttheads.

I take it you aren't in the Southwest.

If someone tattoos a swastika on themselves, they're a Nazi.  If you make excuses for them, you're a stupid cunt.

I just call those dudes buttheads. They've got dem shaved heads and walk around like that. Like butts.

 :sotw:
Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: Cain on May 12, 2017, 11:43:29 pm
That may be the most retarded thing I read since someone decided J was their personal pronoun.
Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: Unmelodic Cookery on May 12, 2017, 11:46:08 pm
That may be the most retarded thing I read since someone decided J was their personal pronoun.

Or is it the accurate representation of today's society, as everyone has become their own personal fartbox.

Eventually they will all congregate together from both sides and fart at each other until the greenhouse gasses build up in the atmosphere and kill us all with radiation and Taco Bell.
Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on May 12, 2017, 11:52:40 pm
That may be the most retarded thing I read since someone decided J was their personal pronoun.

:mittens:

I had forgotten about that shit.   :lulz:
Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: Cain on May 13, 2017, 12:06:53 am
That may be the most retarded thing I read since someone decided J was their personal pronoun.

Or is it the accurate representation of today's society

Yeah...no.
Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on May 13, 2017, 12:10:07 am
The only reason I keep coming back here is that no matter how bad things get, there's always another damage case outdoing the last one.
Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: Unmelodic Cookery on May 13, 2017, 12:22:25 am
That may be the most retarded thing I read since someone decided J was their personal pronoun.

Or is it the accurate representation of today's society

Yeah...no.

If you cannot refute the truth that today's society in general has their head up their butt, then please direct yourself to the nearest doctor in order to ascertain your reasoning of existence.
Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on May 13, 2017, 12:29:15 am
to acertain your reasoning of existence.

This is the most special thing anyone has posted since 2008.


Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: Unmelodic Cookery on May 13, 2017, 12:44:02 am
to acertain your reasoning of existence.

This is the most special thing anyone has posted since 2008.

Well what do you expect me to say? I'm not some bumpkin who puts his head in the ground like an ostrich every time someone tries to tell me I'm wrong for what I state.

You don't even try to refute what I say, merely attempting to take what I say at face value and claiming I am insane.

Keep doing that, it's as I say it is. Also wear a gas mask.
Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: Q. G. Pennyworth on May 13, 2017, 01:36:58 am
You should make friends with the Hare Krishna guy!
Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on May 13, 2017, 03:18:05 am
You should make friends with the Hare Krishna guy!

THE ULTIMATE TEAM UP!
Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on May 13, 2017, 03:19:13 am
to acertain your reasoning of existence.

This is the most special thing anyone has posted since 2008.

Well what do you expect me to say? I'm not some bumpkin who puts his head in the ground like an ostrich every time someone tries to tell me I'm wrong for what I state.

You don't even try to refute what I say, merely attempting to take what I say at face value and claiming I am insane.

Keep doing that, it's as I say it is. Also wear a gas mask.

I'm not actually paid to refute what you say.  I'm just here for the laughs.
Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: Unmelodic Cookery on May 13, 2017, 05:16:56 am
to acertain your reasoning of existence.

This is the most special thing anyone has posted since 2008.

Well what do you expect me to say? I'm not some bumpkin who puts his head in the ground like an ostrich every time someone tries to tell me I'm wrong for what I state.

You don't even try to refute what I say, merely attempting to take what I say at face value and claiming I am insane.

Keep doing that, it's as I say it is. Also wear a gas mask.

I'm not actually paid to refute what you say.  I'm just here for the laughs.

We're not paid at all.
Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: tyrannosaurus vex on May 13, 2017, 06:15:41 pm
to acertain your reasoning of existence.

This is the most special thing anyone has posted since 2008.

Well what do you expect me to say? I'm not some bumpkin who puts his head in the ground like an ostrich every time someone tries to tell me I'm wrong for what I state.

You don't even try to refute what I say, merely attempting to take what I say at face value and claiming I am insane.

Keep doing that, it's as I say it is. Also wear a gas mask.

I'm not actually paid to refute what you say.  I'm just here for the laughs.

We're not paid at all.

Hey check it out, it's the guy whose argument for why the police have biases against minorities is because the police are "justifiably paranoid" since "minorities commit more crime than white people".

Thank you for dragging your sorry ass to PD assuming you'd easily mop the floor with all of us "greyface discordians."

Fun facts about this turd:
- He quotes the PD like scripture because
- He thinks Nazis are extinct, and we should take great care not to offend the poor innocents in the Klan by calling them the wrong thing.
- There is no structural economic division between white and non-white citizens in America
- Speaking of America, it's a meritocracy where everyone has the same opportunities at birth
- And other classic hits from 4chan
Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on May 13, 2017, 06:41:16 pm
to acertain your reasoning of existence.

This is the most special thing anyone has posted since 2008.

Well what do you expect me to say? I'm not some bumpkin who puts his head in the ground like an ostrich every time someone tries to tell me I'm wrong for what I state.

You don't even try to refute what I say, merely attempting to take what I say at face value and claiming I am insane.

Keep doing that, it's as I say it is. Also wear a gas mask.

I'm not actually paid to refute what you say.  I'm just here for the laughs.

We're not paid at all.

Hey check it out, it's the guy whose argument for why the police have biases against minorities is because the police are "justifiably paranoid" since "minorities commit more crime than white people".

Thank you for dragging your sorry ass to PD assuming you'd easily mop the floor with all of us "greyface discordians."

Fun facts about this turd:
- He quotes the PD like scripture because
- He thinks Nazis are extinct, and we should take great care not to offend the poor innocents in the Klan by calling them the wrong thing.
- There is no structural economic division between white and non-white citizens in America
- Speaking of America, it's a meritocracy where everyone has the same opportunities at birth
- And other classic hits from 4chan

Oh, this is one of the edgy FB Discordians, eh?  Christ, how boring.
Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: tyrannosaurus vex on May 13, 2017, 06:45:54 pm
Yes. Not a single thought rattling around in what passes for a head that isn't as dull as you'd expect. Also infected with alt-right "heh heh I'm just here for the lulz" syndrome. He is proud of having no moral foundation and was apparently surprised by the statement "The act of not taking a side, is taking a side".
Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: Junkenstein on May 13, 2017, 06:50:04 pm
Well this completes our quota of dumb for the month then. Any extra is just a bonus.
Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on May 13, 2017, 06:54:00 pm
Well this completes our quota of dumb for the month then. Any extra is just a bonus.

It's early in the month.  We'll get at least one more.

Krishna dude, this spag, and at least one more.

Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: Junkenstein on May 13, 2017, 09:06:48 pm
Yeah but it'll probably be poptart again and that doesn't really count.
Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: Supreme Dingus on May 13, 2017, 09:43:37 pm
"We're passing the point of intellectual curiosity and abstract philosophy. We're close to something like another world war, but instead of nations ideas fighting, it will be ideas identities. It's up to each and every one of us to decide which ideas identities are worth fighting for, maybe dying for."

Well this completes our quota of dumb for the month then. Any extra is just a bonus.

It's early in the month.  We'll get at least one more.

Krishna dude, this spag, and at least one more.

Hi.
Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: Junkenstein on May 13, 2017, 10:47:57 pm
Hi there. So how so you plan on shitting the bed? Got a guru? Need one? We've gone a whole week without a white supremacist if you're sticking to the classics.
Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: Supreme Dingus on May 14, 2017, 12:22:16 am
Oh I'm just a White tribalist. I denounce violence and hatred.

You know...like a moderate Muslim.
Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: Cainad (dec.) on May 20, 2017, 01:20:20 am
Hey, so I have real-world experience with this topic. I can tell you what happened here.

Oregon is a deeply racist state founded on a racist premise; a nigger-free state. Needless to say, historically we have had enormous problems with racism even once the state got to the point of recognizing that the "no blacks allowed" law was an insane farce that couldn't be permitted to continue. Fast forward to the 1980's; white nationalists were operating openly here, seeking to make this area a white nationalist haven. They were attacking people on the streets; blacks, gays, jews, whoever they felt didn't belong in their fantasy of a white utopia. The police were of no help, being racist as fuck themselves and deeply infiltrated by white nationalists.

Some people died. From being beaten to death by Nazis while minding their own fucking business. One of them was a college student from Africa named Mulugeta Seraw. This made national news. This is when things changed.

The local punks had been clashing with the local skinheads for quite some time, and punks had no qualms about punching nazis. Mr. Seraw's death put not only Portland's Nazi problem, but also the punk resistance to the Nazi problem, in front of a lot of eyes. Punks and SHARPs started moving to Portland to punch Nazis.

And things changed. The streets were made safe for, well, me. And everyone else I knew. We could literally get a punk or SHARP escort if we had to walk alone at night. The police didn't help, but they didn't hinder, either, and it was a sea change for Portland culture. IT CHANGED EVERYTHING. Punching Nazis is literally what made Portland what it is today; if that hadn't happened, Portland would never have become a sweet liberal destination town. It wouldn't be safe.

So shut up with the bullshit clueless holier-than-though moralizing, and punch a Nazi today.

This is really, really important.

It's important because up until now I knew NOTHING about Mulugeta Seraw or the actions of punks and SHARPs in Oregon.

It's important because it throws the cold, wet blanket of "Shit That Actually Fucking Happened," also known as history, onto the cloud of fart-gas that is the armchair discussion of whether or not punching Nazis makes us "just as bad as them."

It comes to mind for me especially because Dan Carlin, who I have really grown to respect in the relatively short time I've listened to his content, recently made an episode of his Common Sense series in which he admonishes the political left for condoning the "punching Nazis" memes. It was unsettling to me when I first listened to it, and now it's REALLY jarring because the dude lives in Oregon and has built his brand around being historically informed and maintaining a perspective grounded in history. So the fact of Mulugeta Seraw's death and the aftermath kind of makes him look, uh, stupid and wrong.

But either he's willfully ignorant, or he's like me: another Well-Intentioned White GuyTM who apparently needs a couple extra credit-hours on the history of race in America.
Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on May 21, 2017, 06:05:11 pm
What's really unfortunate is that Black History™ has been shuffled off into its own Special-Interest History™ ghetto, so that only people who actively seek it out learn about the depths of social injustice OR the everyday heroes who have successfully fought it. Yet, people (white people in particular) are given the impression that they HAVE learned history and ARE educated on the past, because they took all their required classes. So, they assume that if someone else tells them something about Special-Interest History™, that person is wrong, uneducated, or a conspiracy theorist who is blowing minor historical events out of proportion.
Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: LMNO on May 22, 2017, 01:24:54 pm
What's extra weird is the people who don't care.  Not like, "I'm kinda racist so I really don't want to know about this stuff," more like, "I have no real curiosity or interest in this, so I literally don't know any of this ever happened."

For example, one of the guitarists in Frost Heaves is a really nice guy, and absolutely not intentionally racist, but I had to explain redlining to him - which isn't that odd, as it's fairly special interest, but in order to do so I had to give him a brief intro to systemic racism in America, which he didn't know was and is a thing.  He couldn't get his head around the fact that the government intentionally wrote racist laws post Jim Crow.  He was at least willing to learn, but it was really weird to me to have to go back that far.
Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: 00.dusk on May 22, 2017, 03:24:22 pm
What's extra weird is the people who don't care.  Not like, "I'm kinda racist so I really don't want to know about this stuff," more like, "I have no real curiosity or interest in this, so I literally don't know any of this ever happened."

For example, one of the guitarists in Frost Heaves is a really nice guy, and absolutely not intentionally racist, but I had to explain redlining to him - which isn't that odd, as it's fairly special interest, but in order to do so I had to give him a brief intro to systemic racism in America, which he didn't know was and is a thing.  He couldn't get his head around the fact that the government intentionally wrote racist laws post Jim Crow.  He was at least willing to learn, but it was really weird to me to have to go back that far.

The recent history of systemic racism in the USA is so utterly buried under trivial bullshit and outright lies that if you aren't explicitly educated in it, you either have at least one very, very good friend who is directly affected by it, or you very, very likely know not a single thing about it.

I did not know anything about it until just 2 years ago. Keep in mind that I have been to jail and been homeless, that my entire life has been spent in what most people would consider "the projects". Also keep in mind that this was not willful ignorance or "I don't care enough to learn" -- I genuinely had been told all my life that it wasn't real anymore, that the 50s-60s Civil Rights Movement "won" and racism was dead outside of a few angry inbred holdouts. I was told this by smart, well-educated people who should have (maybe even did) know better. Even by people directly affected by it. Even by people in the intersection between those two groups.

You should be more surprised when a white person knows about it at all, let alone when they know /and/ don't dismiss it in favor of blatant racism. You absolutely need to have real curiosity in the subject or personal awareness to not be completely ignorant of it, given the absurd amount of dirt shoveled on top of it to pretend it isn't real.
Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: LMNO on May 22, 2017, 04:03:08 pm
Fair point.
Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on May 22, 2017, 04:24:51 pm
What's extra weird is the people who don't care.  Not like, "I'm kinda racist so I really don't want to know about this stuff," more like, "I have no real curiosity or interest in this, so I literally don't know any of this ever happened."

For example, one of the guitarists in Frost Heaves is a really nice guy, and absolutely not intentionally racist, but I had to explain redlining to him - which isn't that odd, as it's fairly special interest, but in order to do so I had to give him a brief intro to systemic racism in America, which he didn't know was and is a thing.  He couldn't get his head around the fact that the government intentionally wrote racist laws post Jim Crow.  He was at least willing to learn, but it was really weird to me to have to go back that far.

Yep, and this is why so many white people are under the impression that we live in a post-racism, post-racial society, despite the very intense systemic racism that is underlying every single fucking social institution. Now that I am a grad student, I am keenly aware of why other than Asians there are almost no graduate students of color. The academy, at the graduate school level, is structured in a way that is intensely imperial and hierarchical, and demands a degree of bootlicking that is completely at odds with Black or Native American culture. I am insulted to my core on a daily basis just by participating in it, and I am aware that the end goal is for me to internalize it and become one of the professional academics, but I don't want to. I can't bear the idea of becoming one of the tools of epistemicide.
Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: Babo Flatulentius the 3rd on July 05, 2017, 12:25:15 am
It's never wrong to punch Nazis.

You should come over to good old Germany. We got so many Nazis, and Nazis not knowing they actually are Nazis... you could do some serious punching.
Dealing with Nazis I prefer cock punching. Done right -> Nazi can not propagate. Win.


Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: Chucklemaster on July 05, 2017, 03:44:02 am
I'm a pacifist.
That term is loaded with far too much shit, so let me unpack what that means to me. Here, I've re-packaged it into a set of easily digestible bullet points:
I don't like violence.
I'm not going to begrudge anyone for using violence in self-defense or in defense of someone in danger, ESPECIALLY not if the person you hurt is a nazi.
I do not believe in an inherently moral universe.
I do believe that part of why I can tell a nazi to go fuck theirself instead of punching them and get away with it is because of the privilege this unjust society gives me, and understand that that is not necessarily an ability afforded to everyone.
If you punch a nazi, I'm not going to tell you you're a bad person.
When I see nazism being advocated for, I most certainly tell the nazi in question to fuck off. I will continue to do so until the time that they fuck off.
I will fuck with, drown out, and insult nazis all day long.
I am not advocating for everything to be done my way. Like I said, it can't always be done my way.
I endorse all non-violent driving away of nazis, and, like I said, am not going to bitch and moan if some nazis get punched in the process of getting them the fuck out.

Also, I really like that pamphlet you made, Q. G. Pennyworth!
Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: rong on July 05, 2017, 10:18:56 am
What's extra weird is the people who don't care.  Not like, "I'm kinda racist so I really don't want to know about this stuff," more like, "I have no real curiosity or interest in this, so I literally don't know any of this ever happened."

For example, one of the guitarists in Frost Heaves is a really nice guy, and absolutely not intentionally racist, but I had to explain redlining to him - which isn't that odd, as it's fairly special interest, but in order to do so I had to give him a brief intro to systemic racism in America, which he didn't know was and is a thing.  He couldn't get his head around the fact that the government intentionally wrote racist laws post Jim Crow.  He was at least willing to learn, but it was really weird to me to have to go back that far.

Yep, and this is why so many white people are under the impression that we live in a post-racism, post-racial society, despite the very intense systemic racism that is underlying every single fucking social institution. Now that I am a grad student, I am keenly aware of why other than Asians there are almost no graduate students of color. The academy, at the graduate school level, is structured in a way that is intensely imperial and hierarchical, and demands a degree of bootlicking that is completely at odds with Black or Native American culture. I am insulted to my core on a daily basis just by participating in it, and I am aware that the end goal is for me to internalize it and become one of the professional academics, but I don't want to. I can't bear the idea of becoming one of the tools of epistemicide.

do you mean to imply that bootlicking is not at odds with white culture?
Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: 00.dusk on July 05, 2017, 10:34:57 am
do you mean to imply that bootlicking is not at odds with white culture?

"White culture." Every time I see this used unironically in a way that isn't critical of the very idea, the person responsible is a shitheel.
Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: rong on July 05, 2017, 10:47:25 am
perhaps i should have said -

do you mean to imply that bootlicking is not at odds with cultures other than Black or Native American?
Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: Hoopla! on July 05, 2017, 01:12:41 pm
perhaps i should have said -

do you mean to imply that bootlicking is not at odds with cultures other than Black or Native American?

Are you new?

I don't mean to this forum. I mean, are you new to earth?
Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: rong on July 05, 2017, 01:39:16 pm
pretty clear we've all stopped thinking here. 

moving on...

bye
Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: Q. G. Pennyworth on July 05, 2017, 09:58:50 pm
I'm a pacifist.
That term is loaded with far too much shit, so let me unpack what that means to me. Here, I've re-packaged it into a set of easily digestible bullet points:
I don't like violence.
I'm not going to begrudge anyone for using violence in self-defense or in defense of someone in danger, ESPECIALLY not if the person you hurt is a nazi.
I do not believe in an inherently moral universe.
I do believe that part of why I can tell a nazi to go fuck theirself instead of punching them and get away with it is because of the privilege this unjust society gives me, and understand that that is not necessarily an ability afforded to everyone.
If you punch a nazi, I'm not going to tell you you're a bad person.
When I see nazism being advocated for, I most certainly tell the nazi in question to fuck off. I will continue to do so until the time that they fuck off.
I will fuck with, drown out, and insult nazis all day long.
I am not advocating for everything to be done my way. Like I said, it can't always be done my way.
I endorse all non-violent driving away of nazis, and, like I said, am not going to bitch and moan if some nazis get punched in the process of getting them the fuck out.

Also, I really like that pamphlet you made, Q. G. Pennyworth!

Thanks! This one definitely got under people's skin, but Joshua Ellis deserves all the credit for that.

He's actually in facebook jail again, as an excellent demonstration of how FB's policies protect free speech when it's hateful towards non-white people, but comes down hard on anything that makes straight white men uncomfortable.

I think there's a lot to be said about the role that straight white men can play in rehabilitating and reintegrating the worst of the alt-right and other shitbags. The people being hurt by this stuff are not always in a position to defend themselves at all, and rarely are going to be in a place where they have the spoons to spend de-escalating and educating the people who are actively hurting them right now. I worry that a lot of men mistake this job as being "calm everyone the fuck down" rather than "address and remedy current injustices, and restructure society to diminish future injustice, while converting our current enemies into allies in reconstruction." It's fucking hard work.
Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: Chucklemaster on July 06, 2017, 06:43:17 am
I think there's a lot to be said about the role that straight white men can play in rehabilitating and reintegrating the worst of the alt-right and other shitbags. The people being hurt by this stuff are not always in a position to defend themselves at all, and rarely are going to be in a place where they have the spoons to spend de-escalating and educating the people who are actively hurting them right now. I worry that a lot of men mistake this job as being "calm everyone the fuck down" rather than "address and remedy current injustices, and restructure society to diminish future injustice, while converting our current enemies into allies in reconstruction." It's fucking hard work.
head nod.
also, I'm not straight, but I've certainly chosen the role you're talking about by taking the path of pacifism.

Fuck facebook in general
Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on July 06, 2017, 01:23:38 pm
For my part I love violence. I'm not as into it nowadays as I was in my younger years but (and here's the part that die hard pacifists will never get) it's fucking awesomely good fun. In my time I have broken bones, rearranged faces and otherwise hospitalised more than my fair share or deserving (and undeserving) targets.

I feel it's important I point this out because it provides a bit of context to my argument that punching nazis is counterproductive. I'm not one of those Ghandi-assholes who thinks all life is sacred and is totally opposed to violence. Violence is fucking great. It's exhilarating and competitive and kerbstomping some prick who looked at your pint the wrong way is just an intensely satisfying feeling that I'd never take away from anyone.

However violence, in the context of punching nazis, I feel is totally counterproductive. Reason being, you're dealing with two extremes - on the one hand you have knuckle dragging nazi right wingers and on the other you have knuckle dragging right-disguised-as-left antifa assholes. Both these sides are minority but, in the middle you got a whole bunch of people who probably hadn't given it much thought. They are being asked to pick a side.

Watching the clip of what's his face being interviewed in the street when the idiot ran up and hooked him might look great to anyone who has already decided where they stand on this issue but for anyone else, lacking context, I'd expect their sympathies might lie with the victim of the assault. Given that there's no grand adjudicator of right and wrong it's public opinion which decides which side we're on.

Punching Nazis is adding fuel to the fire. Great, if what you want is world war three. But, if you want to end the rise of nazism in the US, I'm not sure that going out your way to alienate yourselves and pushing public support to the nazis is the best way forward.

Think about how the average viewer might have reacted if they'd had a chance to actually hear the kind of bullshit the asshole was spouting, as opposed to witnessing a violent assault on an innocent victim? Yeah, sure you know the kind of guy he is but the public don't and, thanks to the weakest right hook I have ever been embarrassed enough to witness, few of those dumb bastards will ever bother to find out.

So here's a bit of advice - you want to punch a Nazi, no worries. Hell, you want to take a bunch of nazis into a basement somewhere and carve them up with chainsaws, it's all shits and giggles, knock yourself out. But ffs, keep it off camera. You're not winning any friends squeeing like a bunch of little fanboy bitches on facebook and, like it or not, you're gonna need friends to win this thing. Without friends, I'd bet on a legion of sulphed up nazi skinheads pwning a gang of skinny college burnouts any day of the week.
Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on July 07, 2017, 01:51:27 am
For my part I love violence.

Same.

The only way to reach Nazis is to hit them until the Nazi parts fall off.

But yes, KYFMS, so you can do it again next week.
Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: Cain on July 07, 2017, 04:12:17 pm
I'm a pacifist.
That term is loaded with far too much shit, so let me unpack what that means to me. Here, I've re-packaged it into a set of easily digestible bullet points:
I don't like violence.
I'm not going to begrudge anyone for using violence in self-defense or in defense of someone in danger, ESPECIALLY not if the person you hurt is a nazi.
I do not believe in an inherently moral universe.
I do believe that part of why I can tell a nazi to go fuck theirself instead of punching them and get away with it is because of the privilege this unjust society gives me, and understand that that is not necessarily an ability afforded to everyone.
If you punch a nazi, I'm not going to tell you you're a bad person.
When I see nazism being advocated for, I most certainly tell the nazi in question to fuck off. I will continue to do so until the time that they fuck off.
I will fuck with, drown out, and insult nazis all day long.
I am not advocating for everything to be done my way. Like I said, it can't always be done my way.
I endorse all non-violent driving away of nazis, and, like I said, am not going to bitch and moan if some nazis get punched in the process of getting them the fuck out.

Also, I really like that pamphlet you made, Q. G. Pennyworth!

Thanks! This one definitely got under people's skin, but Joshua Ellis deserves all the credit for that.

He's actually in facebook jail again, as an excellent demonstration of how FB's policies protect free speech when it's hateful towards non-white people, but comes down hard on anything that makes straight white men uncomfortable.

What's really weird about his jailing is he was thrown in this time around for reposting something from a former member of this forum.  I know because I (and a few others here) are friends with her, and the picture was posted to her feed well before his.

She's not been banned fron FB at all, despite it even showing on his post that he shared it from her post.

You'd think if the material was really that objectionable, Facebook would follow it up and ban others.  But consistency has never been FB's strong point.  Trans people get banned for signing up accounts with their new names, whereas I use a blatantly fake name for years and no-one blinks.  Support groups get banned for no reason, and white supremacist groups that are literally the political arm of proscribed organisations/terrorist groups are allowed to operate.
Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: Q. G. Pennyworth on July 07, 2017, 05:27:13 pm
Have you read some of the articles about facebook's actual policy that leaked? It's crazy. Basically it's like a well-meaning 16 year old redditor wrote the manual and it's being implemented by high-turnover interns.
Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: Cain on July 07, 2017, 05:45:34 pm
Just looked now.  Wow, that is pathetic.  This is like something my management would come up with, it's that poor.
Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on July 07, 2017, 06:04:53 pm
Consistency in any system is hard to achieve when there are so many disparate talking monkeys in charge of key decision making elements.

off to check out guidelines...
Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: Freeky on August 19, 2017, 10:14:41 pm
Here's a relevant thing and I don't know what to think about it:

"Okay. For my part, I am generally of the opinion that direct, physical violence can be an unfortunately necessary response to extremists, Nazis or otherwise, but only as a way of treating symptoms. If they feel confident enough to attack people in the streets, you knock that shit back when it happens. But, bluntly, I don't think the US is there yet. Widespread street violence a la 1980's Portland is not a thing. Charlottesville happened, and it was horrible, but it was, bluntly,a small incident and an aberration besides. I think that as little as violence does to combat, to the point of arguably escalating the long-term consequences, pushing for it to become a norm now is trying to get rid of molehills by dropping grenades on them.
Just... try to remember that the people who are able and willing to punch Nazis are not, in the main, the people who are most likely to pay the price for punching Nazis."

Quoting, and it feels like bullshit, and I'm exceptionally angry to be told not to punch a nazi because it'll be nazis' usual targets who pay, but... does this person have a point?
Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: Don Coyote on August 20, 2017, 04:32:48 am
Here's a relevant thing and I don't know what to think about it:

"Okay. For my part, I am generally of the opinion that direct, physical violence can be an unfortunately necessary response to extremists, Nazis or otherwise, but only as a way of treating symptoms. If they feel confident enough to attack people in the streets, you knock that shit back when it happens. But, bluntly, I don't think the US is there yet. Widespread street violence a la 1980's Portland is not a thing. Charlottesville happened, and it was horrible, but it was, bluntly,a small incident and an aberration besides. I think that as little as violence does to combat, to the point of arguably escalating the long-term consequences, pushing for it to become a norm now is trying to get rid of molehills by dropping grenades on them.
Just... try to remember that the people who are able and willing to punch Nazis are not, in the main, the people who are most likely to pay the price for punching Nazis."

Quoting, and it feels like bullshit, and I'm exceptionally angry to be told not to punch a nazi because it'll be nazis' usual targets who pay, but... does this person have a point?

IMHO, those folks are going to suffer under Nazis regardless, so even though the violence done to the Nazis can be the direct link, it is inevitable that it would happen but for whatever bloody reason the Nazis want to manufacture.
Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: Freeky on August 20, 2017, 04:50:21 am
Makes sense. Thanks.
Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on August 20, 2017, 06:26:38 am
Here's a relevant thing and I don't know what to think about it:

"Okay. For my part, I am generally of the opinion that direct, physical violence can be an unfortunately necessary response to extremists, Nazis or otherwise, but only as a way of treating symptoms. If they feel confident enough to attack people in the streets, you knock that shit back when it happens. But, bluntly, I don't think the US is there yet. Widespread street violence a la 1980's Portland is not a thing. Charlottesville happened, and it was horrible, but it was, bluntly,a small incident and an aberration besides. I think that as little as violence does to combat, to the point of arguably escalating the long-term consequences, pushing for it to become a norm now is trying to get rid of molehills by dropping grenades on them.
Just... try to remember that the people who are able and willing to punch Nazis are not, in the main, the people who are most likely to pay the price for punching Nazis."

Quoting, and it feels like bullshit, and I'm exceptionally angry to be told not to punch a nazi because it'll be nazis' usual targets who pay, but... does this person have a point?

IMHO, those folks are going to suffer under Nazis regardless, so even though the violence done to the Nazis can be the direct link, it is inevitable that it would happen but for whatever bloody reason the Nazis want to manufacture.

More to the point:  The one way to ENSURE that Nazis fuck people up is to allow them to exist long enough to fuck people up.

"If you fuck with Nazis, they'll hurt minorities."  THEY'RE GOING TO DO THAT ANYWAY.  Unless you beat them up so bad that they can't.
Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: Q. G. Pennyworth on August 20, 2017, 05:02:57 pm
The price of punching Nazis is legal consequences if you get caught, and nobody can pay that but the nazi puncher. Punching nazis may radicalize closet nazis, but,well, fuck the closet nazis too.
Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: Freeky on August 20, 2017, 07:19:05 pm
The price of punching Nazis is legal consequences if you get caught, and nobody can pay that but the nazi puncher. Punching nazis may radicalize closet nazis, but,well, fuck the closet nazis too.

I tend to agree already with that, but the whole "They're going to take it outon their targets of which they are already harassing" threw me.
Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: 00.dusk on August 21, 2017, 12:35:25 am
The "they will take it out on their targets" works when its a splinter faction with no real political power and a very targeted agenda, e.g. with one or two extreme minority groups as the targets, maximum.

(TERFs would be an excellent example if they weren't currently allied with the extreme right, for instance, and they do still fit the bill in extremely trans-friendly spaces.)

As soon as the group hates a significant portion of the populace (e.g. neo-Nazis hate LGBTQ, Jewish, Roma, MENA, Black, Latinx, etc. people) and/or has any significant political power, /even/ if only indirectly (e.g. even if Trump /really did/ hate David Duke, the KKK would still benefit from his policies) they will already take it out on those people by default.

It's easy to see why this is the case. If they hate most or all minority groups, then they will be bombarded with opportunities for actions that can be explained as "the heat of the moment" or "they started it", giving them a thin but viable justification. If they have political power, they don't need to fear repercussions and can freely act like the shitstains they are.

It's only when they have a highly targeted agenda AND a lack of any political power that they need an actual impetus to begin, because that is the only time they cannot act without revealing their true colors AND will receive the much-deserved violence and/or vitriol that they fear. The argument has merit in limited circumstances, but holds no water here.
Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: Reverend Elvis Pope Pelvis on August 27, 2017, 09:18:20 am
But consistency has never been FB's strong point.  Trans people get banned for signing up accounts with their new names, whereas I use a blatantly fake name for years and no-one blinks.  Support groups get banned for no reason, and white supremacist groups that are literally the political arm of proscribed organisations/terrorist groups are allowed to operate.

Seems to me this argument only holds water if no white supremacist groups are ever banned and nobody using a completely fake name has ever had their account deleted for it. As it stands, the facts are probably:

• some trans accounts are banned for using new names
• some accounts with completely fake names are banned
• some support groups are banned for no reason
• some white supremacist groups get banned

So, I would agree when you say that Facebook isn't consistent (what Internet forum is?), but I see no reason to believe it's specifically inconsistent towards the skew you imply.
Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: Reverend Elvis Pope Pelvis on August 27, 2017, 09:23:13 am
For my part I love violence. I'm not as into it nowadays as I was in my younger years but (and here's the part that die hard pacifists will never get) it's fucking awesomely good fun. In my time I have broken bones, rearranged faces and otherwise hospitalised more than my fair share or deserving (and undeserving) targets.

I feel it's important I point this out because it provides a bit of context to my argument that punching nazis is counterproductive. I'm not one of those Ghandi-assholes who thinks all life is sacred and is totally opposed to violence. Violence is fucking great. It's exhilarating and competitive and kerbstomping some prick who looked at your pint the wrong way is just an intensely satisfying feeling that I'd never take away from anyone.

However violence, in the context of punching nazis, I feel is totally counterproductive. Reason being, you're dealing with two extremes - on the one hand you have knuckle dragging nazi right wingers and on the other you have knuckle dragging right-disguised-as-left antifa assholes. Both these sides are minority but, in the middle you got a whole bunch of people who probably hadn't given it much thought. They are being asked to pick a side.

Watching the clip of what's his face being interviewed in the street when the idiot ran up and hooked him might look great to anyone who has already decided where they stand on this issue but for anyone else, lacking context, I'd expect their sympathies might lie with the victim of the assault. Given that there's no grand adjudicator of right and wrong it's public opinion which decides which side we're on.

Punching Nazis is adding fuel to the fire. Great, if what you want is world war three. But, if you want to end the rise of nazism in the US, I'm not sure that going out your way to alienate yourselves and pushing public support to the nazis is the best way forward.

Think about how the average viewer might have reacted if they'd had a chance to actually hear the kind of bullshit the asshole was spouting, as opposed to witnessing a violent assault on an innocent victim? Yeah, sure you know the kind of guy he is but the public don't and, thanks to the weakest right hook I have ever been embarrassed enough to witness, few of those dumb bastards will ever bother to find out.

So here's a bit of advice - you want to punch a Nazi, no worries. Hell, you want to take a bunch of nazis into a basement somewhere and carve them up with chainsaws, it's all shits and giggles, knock yourself out. But ffs, keep it off camera. You're not winning any friends squeeing like a bunch of little fanboy bitches on facebook and, like it or not, you're gonna need friends to win this thing. Without friends, I'd bet on a legion of sulphed up nazi skinheads pwning a gang of skinny college burnouts any day of the week.

This is a post I didn't expect. I think I actually assumed this particular attitude either couldn't or didn't exist, and feel pretty silly for not considering that it might.
Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: Reverend Elvis Pope Pelvis on August 27, 2017, 09:48:06 am
...despite the very intense systemic racism that is underlying every single fucking social institution. Now that I am a grad student, I am keenly aware of why other than Asians there are almost no graduate students of color. The academy, at the graduate school level, is structured in a way that is intensely imperial and hierarchical, and demands a degree of bootlicking that is completely at odds with Black or Native American culture.

Because those cultures presumably independently developed anti-authoritarian attitudes, institutions of authority are inherently racist? I call nonsense.

I'm not denying that the phenomenon of institutional racism exists, but this isn't how it works. The racism here would be cases where schools that by all accounts should have a higher percentage of non-white graduates have no interest in or actively work against determining why they don't. Really, though, I think that's supposed to be the job of the state. We all know that the only reason universities exist is to make money for football stadiums. (And guess what ethnicity those football teams need...)

Unfortunately, governments tend to think like accountants and seem to prefer to force numbers rather than hiring social scientists to get to the root of the problem. Obviously, we need a Science Party - or, at the very least, a Trial and Error Party.
Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on August 27, 2017, 09:21:12 pm
Seeing a pattern, here.
Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: Reverend Elvis Pope Pelvis on August 28, 2017, 12:54:35 am
Seeing a pattern, here.

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-2ZuizUDAgYA/U9FiyNZesgI/AAAAAAAABbg/WJ4ZmkQ_gY8/s1600/NBA+Adversary+Map+Zalozhniy.jpg)
Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on August 28, 2017, 03:45:59 am
Seeing a pattern, here.

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-2ZuizUDAgYA/U9FiyNZesgI/AAAAAAAABbg/WJ4ZmkQ_gY8/s1600/NBA+Adversary+Map+Zalozhniy.jpg)

Gaslighting ain't what it used to be.   :lulz:
Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: Reverend Elvis Pope Pelvis on August 28, 2017, 08:33:57 am
Gaslighting ain't what it used to be.   :lulz:

(https://i.imgflip.com/p1ij6.jpg)
Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on August 29, 2017, 12:25:21 am
Gaslighting ain't what it used to be.   :lulz:

(https://i.imgflip.com/p1ij6.jpg)

 :bacon:
Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: Reverend Elvis Pope Pelvis on August 29, 2017, 06:36:52 pm
Gaslighting ain't what it used to be.   :lulz:

(https://i.imgflip.com/p1ij6.jpg)

 :bacon:

I love bacon. I wish I could eat nothing but bacon without dying before 40.
Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: rong on August 29, 2017, 09:01:19 pm
(http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/ec/ec9e3bb452d8d866878681fd8de9493724d0a6527f387161e3484fbd15f6b79a.jpg)
Title: Re: Sympathy and Nazis
Post by: Reverend Elvis Pope Pelvis on August 29, 2017, 09:20:40 pm
(https://www.meta.co.uk/images/news/meta-logo-version-5.png)