so... whats the deal with TAZ?

[Roaring Biscuit!]

the Temporary Autonomous Zone has been haunting me these past few weeks (seriously, its turned up in far too many conversations).  I had a fair idea of what it is about before hand (from a nice succinct post on these boards), but decided to dig in a little bit more detail.  So I read the essay thing.

and well...  blimey.  It just did not make sense to me.  Well, it sort of did, but I couldn't help noticing that as a whole it had a habit of knocking one set of philosophies, then imitating them in different language, notice the sly use of psycotopography over psycogeography, which of course was a Situationist idea which the author had discussed as dated and inefficient earlier in the essay.

It also annoyed me that he criticized other movements for their polarising effect (us and them), whereas Ontological Anarchy has the exact same pitfalls.

So bascially, if someone would be kind enough to summarise this bullshit in a way that isn't incredibly irritating to read, or explain to me how I missed some very important point that makes it all a very acceptable set of ideas, then I would be very greatful.

x

p.s.  also map is not the territory references, helpful as an explanation.. but also...  ugh..

edit:  also if any mods feel this post is in the wrong section then you know... move away...

[Cain]

This may help, since it avoids both high-sounding poetry and a lack of metaphorical examples:

http://globalguerrillas.typepad.com/globalguerrillas/2004/08/global_guerrill_1.html

[Iron Sulfide]

i may have faulty memory (who doesn't?), but i thought it was Total Autonomy Zone.

Was in the Dada Manifesto, IIRC.

[Triple Zero]

I only remember it as "temporary", from hakim bey's essay. But maybe there's two.

[Cain]

Hakim Bey's was Temporary.

He may have been riffing off/paying homage to the Dada concept, though, it wouldn't surprise me.

[Cramulus]

Vex talked about the TAZ's symmetrical cousin:  The Temporary Totalitarian Zone

http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=14068.msg449572#msg449572

[Roaring Biscuit!]

thanks for the replies, that thread vex posted was pertty cool.

I think I'm starting to get a better idea for this, though I still dislike it in its original essay context.  It also seems to be a fairly defeatist view.  I guess I should explain that.

And I think I'll steal a metaphor from "ourspace" the essay/ebook thing kindly linked by cain to help:

If we look at the search for freedom in terms of surfing, that is "real" surfing, in the sea, not on the web.  It strikes me that the TAZ menatlity applies best to the people who are paddling out through the whitewater, striving to get past the breaking waves and into clear water, so they can relax, so they are temporarily free from the battering of the waves.  But at some point a larger set of waves comes rolling through, moving the point at which waves are breaking further out to sea, temporarily at least, so our TAZ enthusiasts start paddling again, trying to fight the breaking waves in search of calmer waters.  I suppose eventually they might end up so far from the beach that they totally lose sight of the society they were trying to liberate, and I suppose at that point they have reached a Permanent Autonomous Zone.  But it seems like a lonely place to be... to me at least.

I'd also argue that the people surfing, actually surfing the wave (probably representative of society's laws and constructs... or consumerism or something) are at least equally free, but at the same time much more connected with their environment.  Just because they are using societies constructs as aids to their expression does not mean they aren't free.  If you are doing exactly what you want to be doing and you aren't breaking any laws then are you not autonomous?

Maybe to help the point a bit.  I actually do surf (fairly regularly, though the sea gets pretty damned chilly in England), and I sure know which part I prefer more (and its not the paddling out).  Of course you have to paddle out to surf back in, so maybe both approaches are necessary.  That is, Temporary Autonomous Zones allow you to find a launch pad so you can express yourself inside the system.

Well...  If you read all that bullshit.  Well done.

thoughts?

x

[Cramulus]

I think I'm starting to get a better idea for this, though I still dislike it in its original essay context.  It also seems to be a fairly defeatist view.  I guess I should explain that.

I am only passingly familiar with Hakim Bey's essay

I'd also argue that the people surfing, actually surfing the wave (probably representative of society's laws and constructs... or consumerism or something) are at least equally free, but at the same time much more connected with their environment. 

unclear:

equally free as whom?
much more connected with their environment than whom?

Just because they are using societies constructs as aids to their expression does not mean they aren't free.  If you are doing exactly what you want to be doing and you aren't breaking any laws then are you not autonomous?

In a way... but if a slave has been convinced he wants to work the fields every day, is he really autonomous?

I like the definition of Freedom given in the Art of Memetics - that freedom is the ability to move within a system.
By that measure, we never attain ultimate freedom, only degrees of it. You can get more free or less free, but you can never be totally free because your actions are always constrained to the system you're engaging.

To me, creating a TAZ is a way of reminding people, sort of like a meme bomb, that there's more than the shit they take seriously.

One example TAZ I've read about it is taking a shit on the floor while you're waiting in line at the bank. Seconds later, there is no line, there is no bank, there is no money, there's just a shit on the floor and people backing away from it with disgust.

EsoZone, a lunatic-fringe convention in Portland Oregon, tried to be a TAZ (I'm told that was part of the aim at least), but ultimately failed. some people involved in that could probably speak more on it

That is, Temporary Autonomous Zones allow you to find a launch pad so you can express yourself inside the system.

yes totally!

[Verbal Mike]

TSos, where does the concept of eventually reaching a Permanent Autonomous Zone fit in with Bey's essay?
The way I see it, the whole point was that the imaginary goal is not the point, but the struggle towards it, which creates a bubble of detachment from the difficult aspects of the systems that surround us, and is thus as good as it gets; when the bubble expands to engulf the system (revolution), it becomes meaningless because a whole new set of systems with a whole new set of difficulties is suddenly all over the place (inside the now-engorged bubble). The essay seems to me mainly an ode to the awesomeness of the Uprising, and a reminder than none of us freedom fetishists really want to be at the top. (But it's been a while since I last read it, so I may be over-interpreting... otoh, this is one of the pieces that have made the most lasting impressions on me....)

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Cram makes some good points. The TAZ essay was one of the first things I read after Eris smacked me with the apple. I've never fully embraced the concept but I think there might be something missing from the surfing comparison...

IN Bey's view, the TAZ would be turning the surf board into a "mobile water based diving platform". It's not escaping the system, quite as much as its denying the system by ignoring its function. Every TAZ is a system within itself. If we look at the Pirates of the 1800's or the Assassins... sure they were outside the System, but the individuals were still in A system, albeit a system with rules more to their liking and less oversight/rules in general. Even if we have a bunch of hippies that just strike out into the backcountry and build a hammock tribe, there will still be some system... some agreed upon set of behaviors (cause that's how monkeys work).

The other key bit is that the TAZ isn't necessarily the One way or the Right way... its just A way. Comparing it vs playing within the system seems a bit off, because its not an either/or kind of thing. For the people that like that sort of thing, its just the sort of thing, those people like.

In my personal opinion, the idea that Freedom is to be had by remaining within the confines of societies rules, seems true in some small sense... but possibly only through semantics and a dance that includes some dead chickens. If on the other hand, you live within the rules of society as it suits you, and tell society to shove its rules up its ass, when it doesn't suit you... I'd probably be more likely to agree

TSos, where does the concept of eventually reaching a Permanent Autonomous Zone fit in with Bey's essay?
The way I see it, the whole point was that the imaginary goal is not the point, but the struggle towards it, which creates a bubble of detachment from the difficult aspects of the systems that surround us, and is thus as good as it gets; when the bubble expands to engulf the system (revolution), it becomes meaningless because a whole new set of systems with a whole new set of difficulties is suddenly all over the place (inside the now-engorged bubble). The essay seems to me mainly an ode to the awesomeness of the Uprising, and a reminder than none of us freedom fetishists really want to be at the top. (But it's been a while since I last read it, so I may be over-interpreting... otoh, this is one of the pieces that have made the most lasting impressions on me....)

[fomenter]

link to bey's taz essay ?

[Verbal Mike]

The whole book is online (Kopyleft, iirc): http://www.hermetic.com/bey/taz_cont.html
This is the main essay: http://www.hermetic.com/bey/taz_cont.html
(It's the only really good part of the book, imho)

[zen_magick]

It's funny, I found and bought a copy last week.  I was kind of under the impression that ontological anarchy and guerilla ontology were similiar concepts. 

Personally, I thought that 'Burning Man' was a good example of a TAZ community.

z_m

[Roaring Biscuit!]

Thanks for all your input thus far

@cram

I'd also argue that the people surfing, actually surfing the wave (probably representative of society's laws and constructs... or consumerism or something) are at least equally free, but at the same time much more connected with their environment. 

unclear:

equally free as whom?
much more connected with their environment than whom?

In my metaphor, the people surfing are as free as the people who have paddled out beyond the breaking waves (those attaining TAZ), but arguably more connected with their environment.  What I mean is that, when you are sitting on a board out in deeper water (TAZ) its peaceful, but when you are actually surfing, you have to be more focused and attuned to what is going on around you as you are cannoned forward by one of the most powerful natural forces on earth.  Maybe that last bit isn't so applicable...

to paraphrase... with pictures...  picturephrase? um...

TAZ looks like this:



The person is "free" of the normal constructs of society/consumerism (represented by waves in my metaphor)

"freedom" inside the system looks like this:



And I'd argue that this person is (in terms of the metaphor) more intune with society/consumerism and better equiped to express themselves inside this construct.

Just because they are using societies constructs as aids to their expression does not mean they aren't free.  If you are doing exactly what you want to be doing and you aren't breaking any laws then are you not autonomous?

In a way... but if a slave has been convinced he wants to work the fields every day, is he really autonomous?

I like the definition of Freedom given in the Art of Memetics - that freedom is the ability to move within a system.
By that measure, we never attain ultimate freedom, only degrees of it. You can get more free or less free, but you can never be totally free because your actions are always constrained to the system you're engaging.

To me, creating a TAZ is a way of reminding people, sort of like a meme bomb, that there's more than the shit they take seriously.

I pretty much agree with this.  I accept the slave argument, though what I was getting at is if you make an "autonomous" decision about whether you are happy to live within the rules, the fact that you are living within the rules doesn't stop you being autonomous.


@ VERB

TSos, where does the concept of eventually reaching a Permanent Autonomous Zone fit in with Bey's essay?

It doesn't I was just letting my metaphor reach what seemed to be a natural conclusion, though I didn't mean it in the revolutionary sense, I meant that a permanent autonomous zone might be reached by total alienation from the "system" on an individual level.

@rat

IN Bey's view, the TAZ would be turning the surf board into a "mobile water based diving platform". It's not escaping the system, quite as much as its denying the system by ignoring its function. Every TAZ is a system within itself. If we look at the Pirates of the 1800's or the Assassins... sure they were outside the System, but the individuals were still in A system, albeit a system with rules more to their liking and less oversight/rules in general. Even if we have a bunch of hippies that just strike out into the backcountry and build a hammock tribe, there will still be some system... some agreed upon set of behaviors (cause that's how monkeys work).

This makes sense.

The other key bit is that the TAZ isn't necessarily the One way or the Right way... its just A way. Comparing it vs playing within the system seems a bit off, because its not an either/or kind of thing. For the people that like that sort of thing, its just the sort of thing, those people like.

*ahem*

Of course you have to paddle out to surf back in, so maybe both approaches are necessary.  That is, Temporary Autonomous Zones allow you to find a launch pad so you can express yourself inside the system.

In my personal opinion, the idea that Freedom is to be had by remaining within the confines of societies rules, seems true in some small sense... but possibly only through semantics and a dance that includes some dead chickens. If on the other hand, you live within the rules of society as it suits you, and tell society to shove its rules up its ass, when it doesn't suit you... I'd probably be more likely to agree

I think thats pretty much what I was getting at, that if one decides what one wants, and it so happens that its not illegal, its still autonomy.  I wasn't suggesting that people should start with the law and work backwards towards what they "want".

x

[Iron Sulfide]

Maybe i thought it was Total instead of Temporary because the closest thing i ever saw to it was all the freaks and shit in Golden Gate Park in SF.

That place has never changed as far as i know, and the authorities aren't recognised as having authority there. Sure, there's the occasional cop that strolls through to make sure everything is mild- no fights, etc (but there never are). It's kind of surreal watching a hippy roll a huge blunt in front of a cop, light it up and have nothing happen.