Some Dissections Please...

[Ambassador KAOS]

So anyhow, here is a rough draft for the first article I have for intention of inclusion in the BIP.  Treat this forum as a think tank.  Pull this apart, see where it goes and hopefully by the time we are done we'll all be covered in guts and it won't even resemble it's original incarnation.  Please make attempts to be constructive.

Surving the Black Iron Prison: A Field User's Guide

I know what you're thinking.
"Damn man, gee..  Black Iron Prison?  That sounds like it really sucks."
Yeah, well, sometimes. 
And now you're wondering exactly what kinda bastards would want to tell you this sorta thing.  Wouldn't it better if they had just kept their mouths shut and let you die a slow happy death of mental, physical and spiritual stagnation? 
Those Jerks...  always ruining a good time with their psycho babble...

The bad news is, it's too late to go back now, so "ha ha",  the joke's on you. *snicker*
The good news is, now that you are armed with this new intellectual arsenal and you can use it responsibly to improve your life's  conditions and eventually help improve the conditions of others.  Not in the sense that you need to buy a new guitar and a bigger car, but in that you can now pull the plug on stream of perscribed nonsense you've become so numb too that you forgot it was even an influence on your life.   Rather,  instead you can find and select some new perspectives and methods of meaning and living and take on a personalized quest of constant improvement.

As you start on down this new road, you're likely to find it's a lot of work to constantly discover new ideas and methods of viewing/doing things.  If you find yourself bogged down by this procedure of reframing and reimprinting try some the following ideas:

1.  Abandon reason and cheapen the experience by telling yourself it will all be worth it in the end.  In all likelyhood it won't be, but dangling an illusory carrot in front of you can do wonders to get you through difficult times.  Who wouldn't want to fool themselves?

2.  Find out what works and stick to it until it doesn't work any more.  As you go through life you will find that the paradigm in which you sit is likely to change frequently, without your approval, and without notice.  What worked yesterday, may or may not work today or tomarrow.  Learning to yield and adapt while remaining true to form is like, Zen, or something smart like that.

3.  It's Better to be happy.  So resist the resist the urge to be a douche bag and make other people uncomfortbale as it will likely result in your uncomfortability as well.  Also, laugh often.  Especially when it might be considered innappropriate to do so.

4.  Live in balance.  This doesn't mean don't overdo or avoid certain things, rather, compensate appropriately.  Barring that, see step one and find a way to fool yourself in accordance with steps 2 and 3.

5.  Buy all my records.  This will not solve your problems, but it will help contribute to my fund for another sollid gold Hum Vee, and that is what really matters in life.

6. If you find yourself debating whether or not reality exists, whether or not you are really a brain in a jar, and whether or not a barstool is really there, punch yourself in the genitals.  This will not solve the argument but will help cure your pretentiousness by serving to remind you that whatever the truth is, that you don't know it, and that you are still subject to proposed physical laws.

Keep these things in mind, or don't.

This too shall pass,
Ambassador KLOK KAOS




...Once this gets played around with my next idea is to pull some of the quotes from the wiki and format it into an article.

[Triple Zero]

i liked it.

but only the start of it.

about up to "The good news is, now that you are armed with this new intellectual arsenal and you can use it responsibly to improve your life's  conditions and eventually help improve the conditions of others.", which sounds way to evangelicalising, and from there it sort of went downhill.

the problem is a littlebit that except for the intro, it has nothing to do with the BIP.

some more in-depth commentary:

> 1.  Abandon reason
stop reading there and THINK about what you just said

> 2.  Find out what works and stick to it until it doesn't work any more.
i kind of get what you're trying to say here, the message is a good one, the presentation not so. if you're trying to tell people to have an open mind, don't tell them to "stick to it", even if it follows immediately by "until it doesn't work", cause that'll confuse them, and in a bad way. you want to confuse people about the things they already know, not the things you want them to "get".
leave out the bits about Zen. Zen is a religion (even if it appears to be a really wonky one that might be better than the others--it's not), and people react very strongly to things which are religion.

> 3.  It's Better to be happy
first, this thing makes people stop and curl up in their blanket inside the Golden Sphere of Possibility, which is the same as the BIP. second, in this point you're basically saying "if only everybody would be NICE to eachother ..", which makes you look like a hippy.

> 4.  Live in balance
while this is in fact very good advice, it is to me completely unclear of how this follows out of "The Black Iron Prison" ideas. which means people will just have to take your word for it, which is pretty much what we want them to stop doing.
you can write books and books about balance, counteracting forces and how there is no inherent Good and Evil but just actions and events that happen at the right or wrong time and place, etc etc but you have to convince people that such is the case (because there's loads of people who don't believe in balance even if they say they do) and most importantly if you're gonna write some article about the BIP, better make sure it relates to the BIP

> 5.  Buy all my records
not funny, and makes people want to dismiss your entire writing when they come to this point and they won't read any further either (i know i didn't--but i will do so now)

> 6. If you find yourself debating whether or not reality exists, whether or not you are really a brain in a jar, and whether or not a barstool is really there, punch yourself in the genitals
again, reasonably good advice, but it's again that you're just saying it. why would people believe you if you tell them this?

> Keep these things in mind, or don't.
most people will think at this point "ok then, i won't."

> This too shall pass,
and this remark will make them feel safe and comfortable in their newly made decision to "not keep these things in mind", do you even think of what you write down?

[Ambassador KAOS]

I do very much think about what I write down, indeed there are conradictions in message at points... that is doen on purpose to prove the point of the article.  I refuse to defend the article though.  I want to see what have to say so as to possibly inspire different ways of viewing the article and identify points that need to be further exploited.

The question I have about this critique is how does it not have anything to do with the BIP?  Please expalin.

Also, to help understand where I'm coming from with this...

I think the manual very well covered what the BIP is, talking about it more would be redundant.  Instead I wanted to encapstulate what might further project, in my mind this meant... "so we are in this thing, we can't get out and we don't know what's on the pther side... so?  how does that apply to me? why is it important to know about it?  Now that I have this knowledge, how can I use it responsibly?"

I feel giving a reason to care about the BIP is essential and was missing before, but it is very likely I'm retarded...
NEXT!

[LMNO]

Are you trying to say, "So, you're in a BIP.  Now what?"


First, this is obviously not a stand-alone piece.  A person needs to understand what the BIP is before reading it.

Second, you don't relate any of your advice to anything else we've been talking about.

Third, your advice is vague and New-Age-y.  Get specific.  Get concrete.  "Don't be a douchebag" is also pretty poor advice, because someone, somewhere, will always think you're being a douchebag.  Plus, I want Fundamental Conservative Christians to think I'm a douchebag.  It lets me know I'm living the right way.

There's a Fourth and Fifth, but they're secrets.

[Ambassador KAOS]

Are you trying to say, "So, you're in a BIP.  Now what?"


First, this is obviously not a stand-alone piece.  A person needs to understand what the BIP is before reading it.

Second, you don't relate any of your advice to anything else we've been talking about.

Third, your advice is vague and New-Age-y.  Get specific.  Get concrete.  "Don't be a douchebag" is also pretty poor advice, because someone, somewhere, will always think you're being a douchebag.  Plus, I want Fundamental Conservative Christians to think I'm a douchebag.  It lets me know I'm living the right way.

There's a Fourth and Fifth, but they're secrets.

1.  Wasn't intended to be a stand alone.
2.  see below
3.  You make a good point about the verbiage on that.  I'll reward it so as to reflect that one should not do things that they personally feel constitute douche baggery (and thus develop low self image).  I think I can rephrase that with a bit about how someone will always think you suck but it's important to have sollid belief that you don't and here's why...  (etc.)

I do think that to offer concrete solutions is a bad idea though.. yes it's wishy washy to draw broad strokes, but offering concrete options is to automatically negate them as they unable to hold up to every level of scrutiny (there is no master grid, etc.). 
This also helps develop a sense of urgency to decide how to apply these things to themselves, because it is in need of personal interpretation.

Further the idea that it conflicts in areas is to subliminally reinforce the planting the seed that "no one way is the right way", which would be contradicted if I stuck in parables about what should be/could be.

Do you have another option aside from setting concrete ideals (which I personally think would only be a different form of brainwashing from that which they are accustom rather than getting them to think for themselves) that will quell the problem therein?

2.  (this should help with why I didn't relate the topics to what is already there)

I see this piece working in between pieces about what the BIP is (defining) and specific rants that come after (actual content) as a necessary transitory piece, as set up to say that the following rants of various backgrounds and writers and ways of thinking are here for your perview to pick through at your liesure... take what you want and leave the rest...

To do otherwise would seem to me like the rants presented should be taken as gospel and not various perspectives from which to draw influence from.  (I saw this as a fatal flaw that needed attention.  See a need fill a need.)

Gospel = brainwashing
and like triple zero said above, religion(for many people but not all) = turn on filters= close your mind, rather than let this wash over you and keep the parts you like.

Beyond the questions I had after reading the deffinition pieces of BIP, I not only wanted to qualify the deffintions of the BIP with importance but I also wanted to connect the rants as a necessary part and even qualify them as the main content.  This then makes the BIP it's own icon with the following material in support of and supported by the institution.

On a psych level, qualifying the BIP makes it real.  Defining it without qualifying it just makes it another word.  People need to care about what the BIP is to get down and dirty with the rant content, which is the meat and potatoes of the whole thing.  This is where every writer presents there perspective, and all of them do present something different and original (and if not, boot to the head).

If I were to get specific about what to do with one's life I'd do it there.

After rereading the end of it I think I'll have to do more to make this more obvious, much like I'll have to call more attention to the contradictions within the piece as was evident from triple zero's review.

Thanks much, so far both reviews have revealed weaknesses to me that should be further exploited.

[Triple Zero]

I do very much think about what I write down, indeed there are conradictions in message at points... that is doen on purpose to prove the point of the article.

how do contradictions prove the point of your article?

I refuse to defend the article though.

sigh .. if you had let me known this beforehand, i could have refrained from typing up my comment 

[quoe]I want to see what have to say so as to possibly inspire different ways of viewing the article and identify points that need to be further exploited.[/quote]

what?

probably a few words missing there

please try to give your posts a bit more thought please?

The question I have about this critique is how does it not have anything to do with the BIP?  Please expalin.

it has as much to do with the BIP as much as, in a way, everything has to do with the BIP

the only thing you seem to be doing is giving your own personal insights on what you think is good/ethical/right way to live or make decisions.

fine, but if you want to make such statements, better be prepared to defend them!

otherwise, you seem to be giving the impression hat these statements and insights are somehow related to and follow as conclusions from the BIP-metaphor. it is to me completely unclear how this is so. to me they sound like your opinions, so what do they have to do with the BIP??

Also, to help understand where I'm coming from with this...

I think the manual very well covered what the BIP is, talking about it more would be redundant.  Instead I wanted to encapstulate what might further project, in my mind this meant... "so we are in this thing, we can't get out and we don't know what's on the pther side... so?  how does that apply to me? why is it important to know about it?  Now that I have this knowledge, how can I use it responsibly?"

except it doesn't answer these questions.

now i'd ask you to point out the places where you think it does, but since you aren't going to defend the article ..

it is very likely I'm retarded...
NEXT!

somebody remind me to always just refer to the last line in your posts before even deciding if it's worth replying to .. 

[Ambassador KAOS]

I do very much think about what I write down, indeed there are conradictions in message at points... that is doen on purpose to prove the point of the article.

how do contradictions prove the point of your article?
(1)

(2)I refuse to defend the article though.

sigh .. if you had let me known this beforehand, i could have refrained from typing up my comment 

(3)[quoe]I want to see what have to say so as to possibly inspire different ways of viewing the article and identify points that need to be further exploited.

what?

probably a few words missing there

please try to give your posts a bit more thought please?

The question I have about this critique is how does it not have anything to do with the BIP?  Please expalin.

it has as much to do with the BIP as much as, in a way, everything has to do with the BIP

the only thing you seem to be doing is giving your own personal insights on what you think is good/ethical/right way to live or make decisions.(4)

fine, but if you want to make such statements, better be prepared to defend them!


otherwise, you seem to be giving the impression hat these statements and insights are somehow related to and follow as conclusions from the BIP-metaphor. it is to me completely unclear how this is so. to me they sound like your opinions, so what do they have to do with the BIP??

Also, to help understand where I'm coming from with this...

I think the manual very well covered what the BIP is, talking about it more would be redundant.  Instead I wanted to encapstulate what might further project, in my mind this meant... "so we are in this thing, we can't get out and we don't know what's on the pther side... so?  how does that apply to me? why is it important to know about it?  Now that I have this knowledge, how can I use it responsibly?"

except it doesn't answer these questions.(5)

now i'd ask you to point out the places where you think it does, but since you aren't going to defend the article ..

it is very likely I'm retarded...
NEXT!

somebody remind me to always just refer to the last line in your posts before even deciding if it's worth replying to .. 
[/quote]

1)In a typical fashion this calls to the old addage of no one grid being universal and absolute.  That is why I feel it would make a good transition from deffinitions to other rants.  Your missing of that point is why I feel I need to revist those contradictions as I assume that you have some measure of respectable intellect...
Yes, I know what assume spells.

2) I refuse to defend the "nature of the article" is more apprpriate.  By this I mean subjective aspects, as in what people like and don't like.  If I listened to what everyone liked and didn't like nothing would ever get written.

3)I want to see what (you) have to say so as to possibly inspire different ways of viewing the article and identify points that need to be further exploited.

one word missing.  my bad.  use your powers of perception and imagination to make the three dots into a triangle.

(4) fair enough.  but if you need to argue that being a fuck stick  for the sake of being a fuckstick (and other such opposition to the very broad strokes I made) is a valuable contribution and that not stopping at stop signs is benevolent then I have to write off the argument as being contrarian.

(5) I don't see how you could miss that.  Those things were set up in the intro  and carried through to the end.  I get the feeling your simply reading the words and failing to comprehend any of the meaning, which is why I stated I needed to revisit my points as I would like to set this up for an audience that is not necessarilly engrossed with the subject matter.

When you missed the point it means I missed the hook.  <--- that is the information I need, not whether or not it's funny or if you like it, or it's stupid.

Like I said in the other thread.  Instead of offering subjectivity, please attempt to point to a specific and identifiable (non-subjective) flaw and offer a vallid sollution.  That will yeild better results at least as far as I am concerned.

Handshakes over fists.

AKK

[P3nT4gR4m]

Think you totally quotesploded there  press the 'edit' button and match up quote's with /quote's

[AFK]

The bad news is, it's too late to go back now, so "ha ha",  the joke's on you. *snicker*

If one could go back where would they be going back to?  Logically, this is inconsistent with the BIP because there is never a point in time that you aren't in it.  At least, the way I look at it.  So, fundamentally, there really is no other place to go outside of the BIP. 

The good news is, now that you are armed with this new intellectual arsenal and you can use it responsibly to improve your life's  conditions and eventually help improve the conditions of others.  Not in the sense that you need to buy a new guitar and a bigger car, but in that you can now pull the plug on stream of perscribed nonsense you've become so numb too that you forgot it was even an influence on your life.   Rather,  instead you can find and select some new perspectives and methods of meaning and living and take on a personalized quest of constant improvement.

I think there are some good ideas here but they need to be fleshed out more.  For example, what exactly is this intellectual arsenal and what weaponry makes it up?  The part about prescribed nonsense is good, you should extend this. 

As you start on down this new road, you're likely to find it's a lot of work to constantly discover new ideas and methods of viewing/doing things.  If you find yourself bogged down by this procedure of reframing and reimprinting try some the following ideas:

1.  Abandon reason and cheapen the experience by telling yourself it will all be worth it in the end.  In all likelyhood it won't be, but dangling an illusory carrot in front of you can do wonders to get you through difficult times.  Who wouldn't want to fool themselves?

I'm not sure abandoning reason is a good choice of action when contemplating the BIP.  In fact, I would argue one cannot even see the BIP and begin to understand it without reason. 

2.  Find out what works and stick to it until it doesn't work any more.  As you go through life you will find that the paradigm in which you sit is likely to change frequently, without your approval, and without notice.  What worked yesterday, may or may not work today or tomarrow.  Learning to yield and adapt while remaining true to form is like, Zen, or something smart like that.

I think I know what you are trying to say here but I think the first sentence screws it up.  People will tend to focus on the "stick to it" and will find it hard to resolve with "change frequently."  I think you should just lose that first sentence and your point will be clearer. 

3.  It's Better to be happy.  So resist the resist the urge to be a douche bag and make other people uncomfortbale as it will likely result in your uncomfortability as well.  Also, laugh often.  Especially when it might be considered innappropriate to do so.

Nice advice but it seems a bit trite.  Kind of like when you've just witnessed your kitty getting flattened by a semi and your Dad tells you to "buck up." 

4.  Live in balance.  This doesn't mean don't overdo or avoid certain things, rather, compensate appropriately.  Barring that, see step one and find a way to fool yourself in accordance with steps 2 and 3.

I think someone else mentioned it, this is good advice but I don't find that it relates to the BIP concepts. 

5.  Buy all my records.  This will not solve your problems, but it will help contribute to my fund for another sollid gold Hum Vee, and that is what really matters in life.

toolbox, srsly. 

6. If you find yourself debating whether or not reality exists, whether or not you are really a brain in a jar, and whether or not a barstool is really there, punch yourself in the genitals.  This will not solve the argument but will help cure your pretentiousness by serving to remind you that whatever the truth is, that you don't know it, and that you are still subject to proposed physical laws.

I think I understand where you are going with this but I think it could be executed better.  My take is this is sort of like when TGRR pops into the BIP forum and smacks everyone around telling us to stop debating linguistics, mahdgicke, and maps.  I think you are trying to say to not get lost in the BIP, which is good advice.  It's good to keep grounded, but, I think the way you've laid it out might make one get the impression that you think ALL exploration of the BIP is foolish.  It's the attitude.  I think you could dial it back a bit and flesh it out more. 



So these are my takes. 

[LMNO]

RWHN might be dealing in troofpicks, here.

Idea for AKK: Take each point you have, and make them each separate essays, 500-1000 words.  Your summations are a bit frilly for me, so maybe a more in-depth examination of them would reveal more.

[AFK]

RWHN might be dealing in troofpicks, here.

Idea for AKK: Take each point you have, and make them each separate essays, 500-1000 words.  Your summations are a bit frilly for me, so maybe a more in-depth examination of them would reveal more.

Or horseshit.  Especially since I spent all day yesterday at the capitol.  I'm thinking that maybe AKK needs to do a little more thread diving.  I'm not saying this in a condescending way.  Seriously, we've talked about this stuff in so many different angles and from many different perspectives.  This thing has been living for over a year now I think and so there's a lot to digest and decipher.  But I think your (AKK's) post shows that some of the concepts, at least on some level, are jiving with you. 

[Ambassador KAOS]

The bad news is, it's too late to go back now, so "ha ha",  the joke's on you. *snicker*

If one could go back where would they be going back to?  Logically, this is inconsistent with the BIP because there is never a point in time that you aren't in it.  At least, the way I look at it.  So, fundamentally, there really is no other place to go outside of the BIP. 

The good news is, now that you are armed with this new intellectual arsenal and you can use it responsibly to improve your life's  conditions and eventually help improve the conditions of others.  Not in the sense that you need to buy a new guitar and a bigger car, but in that you can now pull the plug on stream of perscribed nonsense you've become so numb too that you forgot it was even an influence on your life.   Rather,  instead you can find and select some new perspectives and methods of meaning and living and take on a personalized quest of constant improvement.

I think there are some good ideas here but they need to be fleshed out more.  For example, what exactly is this intellectual arsenal and what weaponry makes it up?  The part about prescribed nonsense is good, you should extend this. 

As you start on down this new road, you're likely to find it's a lot of work to constantly discover new ideas and methods of viewing/doing things.  If you find yourself bogged down by this procedure of reframing and reimprinting try some the following ideas:

1.  Abandon reason and cheapen the experience by telling yourself it will all be worth it in the end.  In all likelyhood it won't be, but dangling an illusory carrot in front of you can do wonders to get you through difficult times.  Who wouldn't want to fool themselves?

I'm not sure abandoning reason is a good choice of action when contemplating the BIP.  In fact, I would argue one cannot even see the BIP and begin to understand it without reason. 

2.  Find out what works and stick to it until it doesn't work any more.  As you go through life you will find that the paradigm in which you sit is likely to change frequently, without your approval, and without notice.  What worked yesterday, may or may not work today or tomarrow.  Learning to yield and adapt while remaining true to form is like, Zen, or something smart like that.

I think I know what you are trying to say here but I think the first sentence screws it up.  People will tend to focus on the "stick to it" and will find it hard to resolve with "change frequently."  I think you should just lose that first sentence and your point will be clearer. 

3.  It's Better to be happy.  So resist the resist the urge to be a douche bag and make other people uncomfortbale as it will likely result in your uncomfortability as well.  Also, laugh often.  Especially when it might be considered innappropriate to do so.

Nice advice but it seems a bit trite.  Kind of like when you've just witnessed your kitty getting flattened by a semi and your Dad tells you to "buck up." 

4.  Live in balance.  This doesn't mean don't overdo or avoid certain things, rather, compensate appropriately.  Barring that, see step one and find a way to fool yourself in accordance with steps 2 and 3.

I think someone else mentioned it, this is good advice but I don't find that it relates to the BIP concepts. 

5.  Buy all my records.  This will not solve your problems, but it will help contribute to my fund for another sollid gold Hum Vee, and that is what really matters in life.

toolbox, srsly. 

6. If you find yourself debating whether or not reality exists, whether or not you are really a brain in a jar, and whether or not a barstool is really there, punch yourself in the genitals.  This will not solve the argument but will help cure your pretentiousness by serving to remind you that whatever the truth is, that you don't know it, and that you are still subject to proposed physical laws.

I think I understand where you are going with this but I think it could be executed better.  My take is this is sort of like when TGRR pops into the BIP forum and smacks everyone around telling us to stop debating linguistics, mahdgicke, and maps.  I think you are trying to say to not get lost in the BIP, which is good advice.  It's good to keep grounded, but, I think the way you've laid it out might make one get the impression that you think ALL exploration of the BIP is foolish.  It's the attitude.  I think you could dial it back a bit and flesh it out more. 



So these are my takes. 

Usefull commentary, duely noted.  I've gotten the impression over all that although the content is pretty good, it misses to mark in expressing the point.  I was trying to keep that relatively subliminal but that may be a mistake.  I'll revisit this in the redraft.

[LMNO]

Initial experiments have indicated that subtleties and subliminal implications do not seem to be effective.

[Ambassador KAOS]

RWHN might be dealing in troofpicks, here.

Idea for AKK: Take each point you have, and make them each separate essays, 500-1000 words.  Your summations are a bit frilly for me, so maybe a more in-depth examination of them would reveal more.

Or horseshit.  Especially since I spent all day yesterday at the capitol.  I'm thinking that maybe AKK needs to do a little more thread diving.  I'm not saying this in a condescending way.  Seriously, we've talked about this stuff in so many different angles and from many different perspectives.  This thing has been living for over a year now I think and so there's a lot to digest and decipher.  But I think your (AKK's) post shows that some of the concepts, at least on some level, are jiving with you. 

I do agree that the points need expanding, I do intend to do that, but as I said in a previous response I was intending this to transition to rants from BIP.  See above for a more in depth explanation and why I thought this was necessary to begin with.

Thread diving is good.  I do a lot of it, but there is indeed a lot of material.  In another thead I was just responding with LMNO about how before I write an actual piece that is intended to have some in depth substance that I intend on running through the history so I don't repeat someone else's shtick accidentally and can actually contribute something new and meaningfull. 

[AFK]

Well you're right, everyone needs to start somewhere.  Plus it serves as a way to get some directions or navigational bearings. 

Oh, and I think it is probably inevitable for you to step on toes when you write stuff.  But, since the vast majority of us are kopyleft that shouldn't be a huge issue.