Discordianism to Me

[Requia ☣]

Thornley at least was pretty big into the various "Eastern" religions.  (See his Zenarchy: http://www.mindcontrolforums.com/hambone/zenarchy.html )

Even to the point of partaking of Zazen.  Lots of buddha references as well.  And of course, Zen (in its original incarnation, pardon the pun) is essentially a continuation of Taoism by Chinese monks who converted to the Buddhist religion when it spread from India, under the premise that it was more, well, Taoist, to do that than staunchly defend the old Taoist ways.

And, as Vene pointed out while I was responding, lots of drugs. 

Hmm, the Toaist/buddhist references seem fairly superficial to me, and not in line with what most (westerners) who study the religion get out of it.  Of course, if you run with the theory that Hill and Thornley were more enlightened then most,  and judge it along those lines, they also manage to miss all the BS most people (wetern or otherwise) manage to get out of the enlightenment religions.

[e]

I think the problem is that most people who "study" such religions don't really actually study them.  They read one book about it and then consider themselves masters. 

But like I (implied, sort of, ish), I have no idea whether or not Hill was into the stuff.  My assertions are completely Thornley-based.

One place that I think the zen influence really shows is all the Koans and parable type stuff.

For instance, Zarathud's Enlightenment and "Zen Story" are both koan-type parables.

[atrasicarius]

I discovered Discordianism a couple of months ago, and I immediately liked it because I had already come to pretty much the same conclusions on my own, and it was nice to see that if I was crazy, at least there were other people crazy in the same way. Welcome.

[Verbal Mike]

Suffice to say that Hill and Thornley as a whole were not oblivious to Zen/Tao. It seems to me to matter very little whether Thornley was a Zen master before working on PD or not; clearly there are some things in common between Discordianism and Zen, but I like to think Thornley and Hill's philosophy simply works better in the Western, modern/postmodern cultural context. After all, many of us grokked the core of what they were trying to say after just reading PD or even the Wikipedia page about Discordianism. I doubt any of us would grok Zen as easily. And I have yet to meet or even hear of a Japanese or Chinese Discordian. I assume (on no basis whatsoever) that Zen and Tao simply make more sense in Far East cultural contexts.

[Cain]

I dont know...I found Thornley's descriptions of Zen very easy to understand.  Not that I care for Zen beyond certain aesthetic considerations.

However, for Far East Discordians....how would we know? Has anyone ever bothered to translate the PD into Japanese or Cantonese, and made sure its promoted on sites in those languages?  I know davedim planned to do a Japanese translation...but I havent seen any others.  There are no Hebrew, Arabic, Swahili, Punjabi or Bhasa Indonesia translations of the PD either (there may be a Russian one, however).

Until we actually try, I couldn't possibly comment one way or another.

I have considered translating it into Indonesian and kicking up a storm with their religious nutters, and then rely on the Australian government to save me (think of the fun that would be!) but it not a definite plan yet.

[Verbal Mike]

I'm under the impression most young intellectual Japanese can read English very well.
As for Hebrew, I know several Israeli Discordians and a couple of us plan to translate BIP and possibly PD some day. But most young Israelis can read English very well.

But that's all beside the point. Of course it's possible there might be Discordians in the Far East... Especially if and when the appropriate translations are done... But what I'm saying is that Zen and Tao would probably make more sense to a Chinese or Japanese person because of the common cultural context... Most of the jokes in PD would be totally lost to someone not familiar with American pop and hippie/beat culture.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

because of the common cultural context... Most of the jokes in PD would be totally lost to someone not familiar with American pop and hippie/beat culture.

The PD, I agree... tends to be a very 1960's American-centric view of Discordianism. However, I think that may be like saying the Old Testament tends to have a very BC Hebrew-centric view of Judaism. 

I mean, it does seem that the 'philosophy' (whatever one may make of it) appears heavily founded on the popular counterculture philosophical positions if the pop/hippie/beat culture. Would the creation of an irreligious religion... the 'marijuana of the lunatic fringe'... have been possible without the presence of the post-beat/post-modern culture? That is, without the cultural iconoclasm, the cultural rebellion against everything 'normal' would something like the PD have gone anywhere except in a shoebox with the Honest Book of Truth? I think its an example of having the right memes for the culture at the right time.

I wonder if perhaps, the best 'rewrite' of the PD would be done by people in each subculture, surely the Japanese counterculture would have wildly different memes than the US, Eastern Europe or South America...  Of course, that's the best part about Discordianism in my opinion, unlike most religions that were inspired memes/myths of their culture, we can add to it every few years so that it maintains cultural relevance... thanks in part to our non-prophet status, I think.

[Verbal Mike]

I think what I'm getting at is that there's a core of philosophical thoughts and ideas in Discordianism that might be seen as the "point" of the whole irreligion. So yes, naturally the memes that makes Discordianism Discordian are what they are, even as malleable and evolving as they are, but the deeper realization and enlightenments of Discordianism can -- and likely do -- exist outside of our collective Erisian memepool.

[Cain]

Put in that way, I can agree.  However, I just wanted to point out just because many Japanese and Israeli students are capable of reading English doesn't mean they will, and even if they do, running across a copy of the Principia doesn't seem too likely.

However, for an interesting side project, we could look at the various memes, myths and archtypes that could be used in various countries and cultures for a Discordian book.  It would be...most rewarding, I think.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

I think what I'm getting at is that there's a core of philosophical thoughts and ideas in Discordianism that might be seen as the "point" of the whole irreligion. So yes, naturally the memes that makes Discordianism Discordian are what they are, even as malleable and evolving as they are, but the deeper realization and enlightenments of Discordianism can -- and likely do -- exist outside of our collective Erisian memepool.

Oh yes, I agree. Crowley said 'when one culture thinks of an idea (Zeus) and another culture thinks of an idea (Odin) these are not two ideas, but one' and Joe Campbell would agree with him.

[Verbal Mike]

As would, interestingly enough, Plato.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

As would, interestingly enough, Plato.

Ah yes, in the Forms

[e]

I'm under the impression most young intellectual Japanese can read English very well.

This depends largely on what you qualify as "English".  Weird stuff like the PD would probably only confuse people.  My nihongo skills are sugoku warukunarimashita, especially when it comes to kanji.  Otherwise I would volunteer for this noble task (that is, translating it).

And in fact, it's been my experience that a large part of the Japanese "counter-culture", or at least one of them, is just "America is cool."

But well, there's a reason sites like www.engrish.com are there 

[Cain]

Historically, you could possibly look towards unconventional samurai (such as Miyamoto Muashi), Buddhist monks, the Yakuza etc as embodying ideas of a Japanese counter-culture as well.  In that they defied the norms of their time etc

But that's why I suggested a new thread to discuss such things, if anyone else is interested.

[Verbal Mike]

I'm definitely intrigued. I don't know if I'll have much to add as far as actual knowledge but you can bet I'll watch the thread intently.