Frequently asked questions..

[AFK]

Right, I believe that is what we would call creative order.  A pattern created by man based upon man's concept of pattern which is then interpreted by man as a pattern.  

Is it odd that as the most advanced species on this planet that we have so many flaws?

And this is where Greyface comes in.  It is human nature to be inprecise.  It is part of human reality that for as much order as we want to manifest in our minds, there is all of this disorder we are either glossing over, or as LMNO talks about, filtering out of our equations.  

For some things, it is imperative that we have those conventions.  I'm thinking open heart surgery is one of them.  But at the same time, the flexibility of the pattern going awry also has to be taken into consideration, otherwise, surgeons would freeze at the first hint of something going astray.  

And so when elements in our society get so hung up and focused on pattern, pattern, pattern; patterns of behavior, patterns of government, patterns of society, those elements are ignoring that really is the norm to deviate from these patterns or to maybe not even exist in the norms.  And that's when everyone becomes malcontent hunchbrains.  

Eh, I may have gone a little too tangential there....it felt good though. 

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Right, I believe that is what we would call creative order.  A pattern created by man based upon man's concept of pattern which is then interpreted by man as a pattern.  

Is it odd that as the most advanced species on this planet that we have so many flaws?

And this is where Greyface comes in.  It is human nature to be inprecise.  It is part of human reality that for as much order as we want to manifest in our minds, there is all of this disorder we are either glossing over, or as LMNO talks about, filtering out of our equations.  

For some things, it is imperative that we have those conventions.  I'm thinking open heart surgery is one of them.  But at the same time, the flexibility of the pattern going awry also has to be taken into consideration, otherwise, surgeons would freeze at the first hint of something going astray.  

And so when elements in our society get so hung up and focused on pattern, pattern, pattern; patterns of behavior, patterns of government, patterns of society, those elements are ignoring that really is the norm to deviate from these patterns or to maybe not even exist in the norms.  And that's when everyone becomes malcontent hunchbrains.  

Eh, I may have gone a little too tangential there....it felt good though. 

Hail Eris!

[Adios]

Right, I believe that is what we would call creative order.  A pattern created by man based upon man's concept of pattern which is then interpreted by man as a pattern.  

Is it odd that as the most advanced species on this planet that we have so many flaws?

And this is where Greyface comes in.  It is human nature to be inprecise.  It is part of human reality that for as much order as we want to manifest in our minds, there is all of this disorder we are either glossing over, or as LMNO talks about, filtering out of our equations.  

For some things, it is imperative that we have those conventions.  I'm thinking open heart surgery is one of them.  But at the same time, the flexibility of the pattern going awry also has to be taken into consideration, otherwise, surgeons would freeze at the first hint of something going astray.  

And so when elements in our society get so hung up and focused on pattern, pattern, pattern; patterns of behavior, patterns of government, patterns of society, those elements are ignoring that really is the norm to deviate from these patterns or to maybe not even exist in the norms.  And that's when everyone becomes malcontent hunchbrains.  

Eh, I may have gone a little too tangential there....it felt good though. 

Got it, the ability to think on your feet and accept what comes.

[AFK]

Yep, it's why I firmly believe that one of the things our schools miss out on big time is improvisation.  It probably gets touched on every now and again, but I think every kid should have some kind of improvisation class, whether it be music, theater, something.  Patterns can be cozy, and are easy to teach and test.  But the human universe has crazy amounts of unpredictability.  some lethal, some, just annoying.  But it's good to be able to adjust as your input suddenly shifts. 

[Adios]

I agree. So many people just kind of 'lock up' when something unexpected happens.

[Telarus]

Still on the 'Pattern' thing.

First,

Pattern (noun) arrangement of objects, facts etc. which has a mathematical, geometric, statistical  etc. relationship


Relationships are Metaphysical.

More Bucky:

All happening patterns consist of experience recalls.

Experience is always special case.

Structures are always special case. Structures are operational. Operational = physically realized. Structures always have unique size. By definition a structure is a complex of energy events interacting to produce(exhibit) a stable pattern.

Weightless, abstract human mind reviews and from time to time discovers mathematically reliable and abstractly statable interrelationships existing between and amongst, but not "in" or "of," any of the special-case experience components of the relationship.

It is the nature of all our experiences that they begin and end. They are packaged. Our experiences, both physical and metaphysical, are all finite because they all begin and end. Experience is always special-case. Special cases are all biterminal, i.e., having both beginning and ending.

[Adios]

Still on the 'Pattern' thing.

First,

Pattern (noun) arrangement of objects, facts etc. which has a mathematical, geometric, statistical  etc. relationship


Relationships are Metaphysical.

More Bucky:

All happening patterns consist of experience recalls.

Experience is always special case.

Structures are always special case. Structures are operational. Operational = physically realized. Structures always have unique size. By definition a structure is a complex of energy events interacting to produce(exhibit) a stable pattern.

Weightless, abstract human mind reviews and from time to time discovers mathematically reliable and abstractly statable interrelationships existing between and amongst, but not "in" or "of," any of the special-case experience components of the relationship.

It is the nature of all our experiences that they begin and end. They are packaged. Our experiences, both physical and metaphysical, are all finite because they all begin and end. Experience is always special-case. Special cases are all biterminal, i.e., having both beginning and ending.

Honestly I think it's too subject to individual perception to have such a linear definition.

[LMNO]

Ipt, perhaps I should explain why I find this concept to be so important.

It isn't so I can win pedantic contests by saying, "that's not a repeating pattern, because this image is .001mm off center of the other one."

It's to recognize a process that humans constantly do but aren't aware of: the process of ignoring whatever falls outside the definitions of the pattern they're looking for.

When we ignore the things that don't fit into the patterns we're looking for, we fall into bias, stereotypes, and ignorance.

A "mushroom" is the name of a pattern we give to a kind of fungus.  But that's not the only type of pattern we can apply to the fungus.  We can get a lot more specific, and try to find the pattern for "edible mushroom" and a "poisonous mushroom".

To say, "but they're all mushrooms" can kill you.

[Elder Iptuous]

sure.
i understand and agree with that sentiment.
we obviously need to keep a check on our natural pattern recognition ability that favors false positives over false negatives, and be aware of our confirmation biases....

what i'm arguing against is the notion that the pattern (and hence order) is not an aspect of the world apart from our perception of it.

it is evident that you should be willing to recognize different patterns than just 'mushroom' onto a fungus.  to say 'they're all mushrooms' and pop it in your mouth would be dumb.  nobody here advocates that.  but all mushrooms are mushrooms regardless of whether we perceive them or not.  that -order- is there apart from our perception.

[Telarus]

Still on the 'Pattern' thing.

First,

Pattern (noun) arrangement of objects, facts etc. which has a mathematical, geometric, statistical  etc. relationship


Relationships are Metaphysical.

More Bucky:

All happening patterns consist of experience recalls.

Experience is always special case.

Structures are always special case. Structures are operational. Operational = physically realized. Structures always have unique size. By definition a structure is a complex of energy events interacting to produce(exhibit) a stable pattern.

Weightless, abstract human mind reviews and from time to time discovers mathematically reliable and abstractly statable interrelationships existing between and amongst, but not "in" or "of," any of the special-case experience components of the relationship.

It is the nature of all our experiences that they begin and end. They are packaged. Our experiences, both physical and metaphysical, are all finite because they all begin and end. Experience is always special-case. Special cases are all biterminal, i.e., having both beginning and ending.

++Weightless, abstract human mind reviews and from time to time discovers mathematically reliable and abstractly statable interrelationships existing between and amongst, but not "in" or "of," any of the special-case experience components of the relationship.++

Ip, did any of that come through, or is Bucky too jargony? I can attempt to re-frame.....

The Concept of 'Mushroom' does not exist in the special-case individual fungus that we observe (or do not observe). The concept of Mushroom exists as the relationship/generalized principle between all of the types of fungus(and other things) that we put into that category.

This generalized "Mushroom" principle exists in Universe as a Metaphysical Genralization (still exists, tho), which is why we can apply it to things like human male genitals, or nuclear explosion clouds.

[LMNO]

sure.
i understand and agree with that sentiment.
we obviously need to keep a check on our natural pattern recognition ability that favors false positives over false negatives, and be aware of our confirmation biases....

what i'm arguing against is the notion that the pattern (and hence order) is not an aspect of the world apart from our perception of it.

it is evident that you should be willing to recognize different patterns than just 'mushroom' onto a fungus.  to say 'they're all mushrooms' and pop it in your mouth would be dumb.  nobody here advocates that.  but all mushrooms are mushrooms regardless of whether we perceive them or not.  that -order- is there apart from our perception.

All mushrooms "are" mushrooms, because we have created the definition of mushroom, and that definition ignores enough of each individual Thing to be able to classify them as a Set.

Mushroom¹ is not identical to Mushroom², but because our definition of "mushroom" ignores the factors of ¹ and ², we can call them the "same".

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

ie "mushroom" is a map/model

the thing we eat or do not eat is the reality.

[LMNO]

This is a mushroom:




This is also a mushroom:





What needs to be ignored in order to classify these as being the same?

[Elder Iptuous]

All mushrooms "are" mushrooms, because we have created the definition of mushroom, and that definition ignores enough of each individual Thing to be able to classify them as a Set.

Mushroom¹ is not identical to Mushroom², but because our definition of "mushroom" ignores the factors of ¹ and ², we can call them the "same".

Certainly.
we created that definition to describe a pattern that we observed.  that pattern is a manifestation of attributes inherent in the mushrooms.  that we see them repeated over this range has significance to us because we note the Order that is there.  so we craft a definition to capture/signify this order.  i know that the criteria is artificial/not really real/somewhat arbitrary.  if we saw something that set off the pattern recognition widgets in our head such that we said, "that thar's a mushroom", but for some technical reason it fell out of our current criteria that we used to describe this pattern we see, then we would need to alter the criteria to more accurately reflect the pattern we see.  maybe we would have to make the criteria a little looser and more inclusive.
it could come to pass that we feel we need to do this successively enough that we see a gradient of change in our criteria for the pattern, and we end up with such a diverse set that when looked at as a whole, there is not a satisfying sense of cohesion in the set.  maybe we will feel the need to ham fistedly cleave the group in two, or some such other inelegant 'solution'.  that exposes the 'unreality' of the classification criteria, but it doesn't dismiss the fact (in my mind) that there is a pattern and an order external to our perception and classification thereof.

[LMNO]

Thing1 and Thing2 are observed completely.  They are not the same.

We eliminate a handful of things to observe, and they are still not the same.

We eliminate an immense amount of things to observe, and we find a familiar element between the two.

We call that a "pattern".


The amount of information we have to supress in order to announce a pattern is incredibly large.  Larger, in fact, than the familiar element we are claiming relates them.  I'm not sure how someone could say that this familiar element is anything but a self-imposed illusion of Order.