Behold, our ancestors.

[Telarus]

No, I think Rat's got a point (and I keep hearing "If Telarus had the inclination, he could start a cult to rival Scientology" from my cabal-mates).

Memes are an emergent behavior of the lower substrate of abstract concepts (previously limited to one mind, or to the 'clan memory' that verbal communication provides) that have found a path to replication (on a multi-node human-based network, now using external memory in the forms of books and computer systems), and thus a competitive ecology.

BTW, this whole thread is full of win.

[Kai]

No, I think Rat's got a point (and I keep hearing "If Telarus had the inclination, he could start a cult to rival Scientology" from my cabal-mates).

Memes are an emergent behavior of the lower substrate of abstract concepts (previously limited to one mind, or to the 'clan memory' that verbal communication provides) that have found a path to replication (on a multi-node human-based network, now using external memory in the forms of books and computer systems), and thus a competitive ecology.

BTW, this whole thread is full of win.

Dammit.

I just realized Dawkins coined the term meme. 

[Triple Zero]

telarus, just a bit of definition, memes do not necessarily replicate. they are any "idea-sort-of-thing". it's just that the ones that do not replicate usually don't get very far or widespread, and usually aren't very interesting to consider, either.

and yeah, of course Rat is right, but that doesn't mean I have to be very enthousiastic about the idea

[Telarus]

good point, 000. replication probably shouldn't be a requirement for the definition of 'meme'.

Now, a bit tangentially, I've recently been considering the Genesis accounts as an attempt by that tribe to narrativise the events that lead up to acquiring the whole 'abstract communicable thought' function. This makes Adam not 'the first dude', but the first dude who could go, "DUDE!". This also makes Lilith a crafty girl who jacked the skill of Naming and the social power that came with it, and got booted from the tribe as a result. A lot of the other language idiosyncrasies there seem to make a bit more sense with this grid on.

[/tangent]

[Kai]

good point, 000. replication probably shouldn't be a requirement for the definition of 'meme'.

Now, a bit tangentially, I've recently been considering the Genesis accounts as an attempt by that tribe to narrativise the events that lead up to acquiring the whole 'abstract communicable thought' function. This makes Adam not 'the first dude', but the first dude who could go, "DUDE!". This also makes Lilith a crafty girl who jacked the skill of Naming and the social power that came with it, and got booted from the tribe as a result. A lot of the other language idiosyncrasies there seem to make a bit more sense with this grid on.

[/tangent]

Do you really think those pastoralists thought that deeply about this stuff?

[Golden Applesauce]

good point, 000. replication probably shouldn't be a requirement for the definition of 'meme'.

Now, a bit tangentially, I've recently been considering the Genesis accounts as an attempt by that tribe to narrativise the events that lead up to acquiring the whole 'abstract communicable thought' function. This makes Adam not 'the first dude', but the first dude who could go, "DUDE!". This also makes Lilith a crafty girl who jacked the skill of Naming and the social power that came with it, and got booted from the tribe as a result. A lot of the other language idiosyncrasies there seem to make a bit more sense with this grid on.

[/tangent]

The story was written thousands of years after language.  Seems that not very many people there would have been around to remember the first spoken sentence.

[Iason Ouabache]

good point, 000. replication probably shouldn't be a requirement for the definition of 'meme'.

Now, a bit tangentially, I've recently been considering the Genesis accounts as an attempt by that tribe to narrativise the events that lead up to acquiring the whole 'abstract communicable thought' function. This makes Adam not 'the first dude', but the first dude who could go, "DUDE!". This also makes Lilith a crafty girl who jacked the skill of Naming and the social power that came with it, and got booted from the tribe as a result. A lot of the other language idiosyncrasies there seem to make a bit more sense with this grid on.

[/tangent]

If you'd like my interpretation of Genesis...  I'll start by making a very key point that Creationists always ignore: "Adam" means "MAN" and "Eve" means "WOMAN". They are the prototypical perfect human beings.  The Garden of Eden is a metaphor for the Olden Times when "nothing bad ever happened ever"and humans were still nomadic hunter-gatherers. Eventually though the humans get bored of the "perfection" and develop curiosity.  They trade in their simplistic ways for knowledge/technology. They give up the hunter/gatherer lifestyle and develop agrarian societies with all of it's positives and negatives. 

It has the whole cause and effect backwards though.  Humans weren't punished to toil the land because of our quest for knowledge.  We chose to toil the land and found knowledge as a result.  Farming caused people to stay in one place for longer.  This, in turn, led to the development of towns and markets. This eventually led to trade routes, organized religion, government, schools, philosophy, modern science, etc, etc, etc.

The serpent gets a raw deal in the whole thing.  All he wanted was just a little piece.