Magic: Who thinks they can do it, and why otherwise intelligent people buy it.

[Shai Hulud]

I don't think we actually disagree about anything, Kai.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Yes, i dont want to live in a world where love, god and magic dont exist - and if that means i have to make pretend every second of my life, so be it.

What's wrong with that if its what you want to do?

[Shai Hulud]

Yes, i dont want to live in a world where love, god and magic dont exist - and if that means i have to make pretend every second of my life, so be it.

What's wrong with that if its what you want to do?

Hear, hear!

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

It means that in this physical reality, it is a meaningless hypothesis. Only what our hands can touch, or what our eyes can see at great distance, Guy. If, even indirectly, you have no evidence of anything different...for FUCKS SAKE, its just MASTURBATION. And it's frustrating talking with you, since you are obviously intelligent but unable to grasp how stupid your words sound. Its like asking the question, "Is there a god?" Current company excluded of course. I can't think of any possible way I could ever falsify the existence of an invisible being I can't sense in any way and shows no direct or indirect activity in this universe. If I can't see it, if I can't touch it or taste it or measure it in some way, subjective or objective or WHATEVER, does it even really matter? Its like making up stories of invisible giant neon pink lagomorphs. If it doesn't have any effect on or in the universe, it, for the sake of anything we can ever know, doesn't exist. And thats all I can work with.

Kai, I'm not trying to talk about things with great import.  It's philosophy, I've already copped to that.  Might as well just say it's masturbation, so what?  I'm not trying to say we shouldn't have scientists.  It's just a limitation.  I feel like we're really close to agreeing actually.

It's not a limitation though, it's a benefit, because it helps to figure out what sorts of hypotheses are actually meaningful and which aren't. It limits...*sigh* it limits the amount of bullshit I have to consider on a daily basis for survival and on up the hierarchy of needs. And I'm okay with that.

Some of us like bullshit... it makes the flowers grow. We don't need flowers, but they're pretty and smell nice and the Universe is better with Honey.

Some of us get tired of bullshit, it piles too high, blocking roads, polluting waterways, and generally making it difficult to breathe. Plus, myiasis.

If you're tired of bullshit, don't use it.

[Bu🤠ns]

It is the best system we have.  And the fact that it's not 100% accurate is okay since if it WAS 100% accurate we wouldn't really NEED science would we?

Science is a process that has helped to accelerate our knowledge of other processes. 

It's the mystery that makes things so damn exciting...if we ever did get to that 100% shit, man, let's just call it a night and start again.

[Shai Hulud]

It is the best system we have.  And the fact that it's not 100% accurate is okay since if it WAS 100% accurate we wouldn't really NEED science would we?

Science is a process that has helped to accelerate our knowledge of other processes. 

It's the mystery that makes things so damn exciting...if we ever did get to that 100% shit, man, let's just call it a night and start again.

I totally agree with you here, I find the mystery the most intriguing part of it all.  Science isn't 100% so that little sliver of doubt leaves room for my imagination to go wild.  And with that kind of license, it would be a real shame not to make the most use of it!

[Bu🤠ns]

It is the best system we have.  And the fact that it's not 100% accurate is okay since if it WAS 100% accurate we wouldn't really NEED science would we?

Science is a process that has helped to accelerate our knowledge of other processes. 

It's the mystery that makes things so damn exciting...if we ever did get to that 100% shit, man, let's just call it a night and start again.

I totally agree with you here, I find the mystery the most intriguing part of it all.  Science isn't 100% so that little sliver of doubt leaves room for my imagination to go wild.  And with that kind of license, it would be a real shame not to make the most use of it!

I think the biggest problem that goes along with that is ...

mysticwicks.com
wicca.com
raptureready.com
godhatesfags.com

Well, you get the idea.

Granted, that's not 'making the most use of it' but fuck...that's a hell of a .1%

The discordians laughed to see such a sport, because the kitsch ran away with buffoon.

[Shai Hulud]

It is the best system we have.  And the fact that it's not 100% accurate is okay since if it WAS 100% accurate we wouldn't really NEED science would we?

Science is a process that has helped to accelerate our knowledge of other processes. 

It's the mystery that makes things so damn exciting...if we ever did get to that 100% shit, man, let's just call it a night and start again.

I totally agree with you here, I find the mystery the most intriguing part of it all.  Science isn't 100% so that little sliver of doubt leaves room for my imagination to go wild.  And with that kind of license, it would be a real shame not to make the most use of it!

I think the biggest problem that goes along with that is ...

mysticwicks.com
wicca.com
raptureready.com
godhatesfags.com

Well, you get the idea.

Granted, that's not 'making the most use of it' but fuck...that's a hell of a .1%

The discordians laughed to see such a sport, because the kitsch ran away with buffoon.

I get you, man, and I appreciate you not lumping me in with that lot.  But I don't see how giving a little slack to the mystical is somehow an implicit endorsement of that sort of thing.  Also, I don't particularly want to visit those sites, but I don't see how you lump Wiccans with the God Hates this or that crowd, maybe I'm missing something but Wiccans in my experience are harmless and entitled to do their thing, whereas the hate-monger types are actually harmful.

[Bu🤠ns]

It is the best system we have.  And the fact that it's not 100% accurate is okay since if it WAS 100% accurate we wouldn't really NEED science would we?

Science is a process that has helped to accelerate our knowledge of other processes. 

It's the mystery that makes things so damn exciting...if we ever did get to that 100% shit, man, let's just call it a night and start again.

I totally agree with you here, I find the mystery the most intriguing part of it all.  Science isn't 100% so that little sliver of doubt leaves room for my imagination to go wild.  And with that kind of license, it would be a real shame not to make the most use of it!

I think the biggest problem that goes along with that is ...

mysticwicks.com
wicca.com
raptureready.com
godhatesfags.com

Well, you get the idea.

Granted, that's not 'making the most use of it' but fuck...that's a hell of a .1%

The discordians laughed to see such a sport, because the kitsch ran away with buffoon.

I get you, man, and I appreciate you not lumping me in with that lot.  But I don't see how giving a little slack to the mystical is somehow an implicit endorsement of that sort of thing.  Also, I don't particularly want to visit those sites, but I don't see how you lump Wiccans with the God Hates this or that crowd, maybe I'm missing something but Wiccans in my experience are harmless and entitled to do their thing, whereas the hate-monger types are actually harmful.

These are specific Wiccans that relates to specific events regarding this and other forums in the past. So yeah, you kinda are missing a bit.  (Cain did a pretty sweet write up of events past...i'll see if I can find it and bump it.)

As far as the crowd I referenced is concerned, it's really just a mix of shitty artistic expression and ignorance.

I don't have a problem with the mystical--it has its own limitations in the same way other forms of such expression do. I try to look at all of it, including science, as art-form.  I figure it's open enough to include both while not taking sides.  So i guess if you were to ask a mathematician to make some art, he'd write an expression..a musician will sing a song...Kai will enlighten you about biology and The Process....Roger will make it rain...and so on.   

It's just that I also happen to be rather critical of art and when someone decides to come out with kitsch crap (much like some or all of the folks at the above mentioned forums,  i generally

[Shai Hulud]

These are specific Wiccans that relates to specific events regarding this and other forums in the past. So yeah, you kinda are missing a bit.  (Cain did a pretty sweet write up of events past...i'll see if I can find it and bump it.)

Ah, good to know.  And thanks, looking forward to seeing that thread.

[East Coast Hustle]

I get you, man, and I appreciate you not lumping me in with that lot.  But I don't see how giving a little slack to the inquisition is somehow an implicit endorsement of that sort of thing.  Also, I don't particularly want to visit those sites, but I don't see how you lump Wiccans with the God Hates this or that crowd, maybe I'm missing something but Wiccans in my experience are harmless and entitled to do their thing, whereas the hate-monger types are actually harmful.

1. U C WAT I DID THAR? so yeah, giving slack to the idea that interacting with the rest of the world based on the framework of self-deception and superstition is OK is an endorsement of those things, and whether or not it's implicit doesn't really matter.

2. as it turns out, they're frequently indistinguishable from each other aside from the different types of tacky outfits.

[Triple Zero]

If Kant had it right, then you'd just have to read him and you'd be done.

No. Kant's writings on the Categorical Imperative aren't exactly very clear or logically complete. He gives several different definitions of the Categorical Imperative [JohnnyX just quotes one], and they are not logically consistent or even seem to define the same thing. He only gives 3 or 4 practical examples of application of the Categorical Imperative, so it doesn't leave much to be deduced from either. All the rest are interpretations by other people.

In that respect, utilitarianism is a lot better defined. I generally agree with it more as well, personally [on the occasions where Kantian ethics disagree with utilitarian ethics], but it's not perfect either.

[Cain]

It is my fault for bringing out random quotes.

Its actually a mangled Hassan ibn al-Sabbah quote.  The actual quote is "nothing is forbidden, everything is permitted", and it is very unlikely he ever said it, since Sabbah was a devout Muslim, and the rules of Islam could only be broken during Qiyamat.  Now, Hassan VI, a later leader of the Assassins did declare the world had ended and the usual rules which bind Muslims, such as eating pork, drinking alcohol, sex before marriage etc, did not apply.  This was reversed by his sucessor.

Context and I'smailism FTW.

[P3nT4gR4m]

1. U C WAT I DID THAR? so yeah, giving slack to the idea that interacting with the rest of the world based on the framework of self-deception and superstition is OK is an endorsement of those things, and whether or not it's implicit doesn't really matter.

That's a pretty fucking good argument for censorship you got yourself there. Can't disagree either. Let's go burn some books

[Cain]

The only thing I see is objective is life, we all gotta play by its rules.

of physics?