Luka Magnotta : Everything is A Dream

[navkat]

What Cain said.  I've been down this road before -- I got flamed pretty hard once for suggesting that accused pedophiles deserve a fair trial and rehabilitation if convicted, rather than castration with a salad fork.  I've since tried to stay out of wildly emotional threads that flatly reject rationality in favor of blood vengance, precisely because the primate scream drowns out everything else.

But thank you, Cain, for the reminder that killing people is bad.

If I were there, I'd have been getting flamed too.

[navkat]

And now we're discussing carrying out unethical medical procedures on prisoners.  Yay.

Look, lets just skip ahead and go with a program called Aktion T4.

I meant every word I said, he is the perfect candidate for studying a psychological disorder that isn't understood very well at all. The same with Breivik.

Unlike navkat inferred, I wasn't implying subjecting him to psychological torment, there is no reason he cannot be comfortable while being studied.

And to the other side of this thread that rears its ugly head on this site every so often: The death penalty is never justifiable. There is no handling the Death penalty with care, its a non issue it shouldn't happen.

Oh, I definitely don't think he should be comfortable if indeed, he is guilty, particularly if he admits guilt and the verdict is not just thrust upon him. However, I am not advocating that we actually torture him.

And I'm surprised the sarcasm in my comments failed so hard. Especially when I made clear my own state of ambivalence on the matter. Let me clarify: if he's guilty of this, does some part of me want him to hurt...bad? YES.
Do I, in sane, light-of-day reasoning think actions towards subjecting him to death or torture are appropriate? NO.
Could I carry out such a thing? NO.
Could I allow someone else to carry out such a thing, even if I keep my hands clean and even if I only sort of "loosely" suspect it's going to happen? NO.
Would I stop such a thing if it were in my power to do so if I found out about someone's plot to kill or torture this creep? <---this is what I'm having trouble with. The answer is most likely, YES. True justice, carried out evenly for all is above any revulsion, fear or sense of empathized injustice and outrage I feel on behalf of Jun Lin and his loved ones...but this one's hard for me. THAT is what I was saying. And I would have a difficult time being outraged on behalf of Magnotta's right to due process (assuming that he admits it) if someone from Jun Lin's family (NO ONE ELSE) took vigilante action.

Does that clarify things? Because after all the flack I take around here with regard to standing up for people's rights in spite of assumptions, I would have thought this all quite obvious.

[navkat]

And fuck, I'm pretty sure I've written shit on here at least once, my opposition to the death-penalty and torture.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

What Cain said.  I've been down this road before -- I got flamed pretty hard once for suggesting that accused pedophiles deserve a fair trial and rehabilitation if convicted, rather than castration with a salad fork.  I've since tried to stay out of wildly emotional threads that flatly reject rationality in favor of blood vengance, precisely because the primate scream drowns out everything else.

But thank you, Cain, for the reminder that killing people is bad.

Yes.

Ironically, killing prisoners also means, barring the possibility of Eternal Torture In Hell^(TM) their suffering is shortened. They're dead, not locked up.

[navkat]

And let me make this clear, as well so I can be certain this isn't taken the wrong way either: When I say, he should be made "uncomfortable," what I mean is that there shouldn't be run-of-the-mill, noodle-necklace time for this chucklehead. Therapy is work and relies mainly on the inner motive on behalf of the person in therapy to become a better, well-adjusted and worthy person. The typical Therapist/patient relationship relies on mutual goals towards wellness, honesty, effort and respect. It is one of free-will.

I believe no such capability or motive exists within this man, if he is indeed guilty of the acts on that video. I also believe that a sentence of therapy in a punitive setting in this case (and in other cases where it is determined properly by a psychiatrist that no sense of remourse or empathy exist), is one devoid of the existence of mutual respect, trust, honesty and goals towards wellness. I believe that the natural tendency of this man will be to dive further into his delusions of grandeur and his fantasy world that shields him from giving a shit and I believe that to attempt to Tx such a patient, the therapist must be both strong-willed and capable of (and permitted) using other tacks.

And if the goal is to learn something usable (which, to me, would equate not just to comprehension of the mental architecture for the purposes of recognition and avoidance of falling prey to, but more, usable knowledge which over time, might reveal how how to rehabilitate--or at least rehabilitate young--a mind such as this before damage is done), this man (and others like him) is going to have to sit through and be subjected to so pretty exhausting, forced mental acrobatics. The goal, of course, is not to use this man (as he used his victim) and simply waste him as a total loss, but to avoid falling into his bullshit, disallow him escape into his bullshit and yes, to Tx the patient with the understanding that some of the medicine is uncomfortable for him to take.

I don't consider use of measured sleep deprivation (I'm not talking about deadly levels, here) torture.
I don't consider placing him in uncomfortable situations that mess with his sleep cycles and sense of order to be torture.
I don't consider serving him the same meal every single day to be torture.

Tell him lies, have everyone on the ward tell him lies, shake up his world, confuse him, "dissect" his mind, force him into psychologically constructed situations which force him to look critically at himself...none of these are injust. So long as you aren't starving him or harming his body or placing him in situations whose goal or function are to make him ultimately ultimately unwell and the goal remains taking strides towards making him (or at least those who may come after him) less afflicted.

I hope that's clear. Never intended you hook his ass up to ECT and let 'er rip.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

That is all insanely unethical and completely horrifying, from a human research perspective.

Researching people who do butcher other people for entertainment might prove helpful in understanding how their minds work, how they got that way, and how to predict or prevent such nightmares. It is highly unlikely that anything can be done to cure them, so keeping them confined, treating them humanely, and studying them is probably the most constructive option.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

When you look at how many people are convicted of (and even executed for) crimes they didn't commit, maybe my perspective becomes more clear.

But even if guilt were 100% assured, that kind of treatment costs us our own humanity, and benefits no one. If we're willing to go there, we might as well go back to the days of performing medical experiments on prisoners.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

Yes, THIS.

Something else people can't seem to get their mind around is that the act of cutting prisoners off from society at large, in order to protect society, contains its own punishment. Brutalizing them just makes us dicks.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

Too lazy to google, but the state of California actually repealed the death penalty for awhile, I think it was in the 70's? Some of the inmates who weren't totally psycho batshit ended up getting released and only one went on to kill again (he was also psycho batshit but somehow the judge wasn't given all the info). The rest went on to live quiet, and in most cases productive, lives. This makes me VERY uncomfortable with the idea of killing prisoners.

[Triple Zero]

So Navkat, what other classes of people should we include in the "officially we're not going to kill you, but if just happen to die, well, we won't investigate too hard" category?  Suspected terrorists?  Oh, wait, we already do that one.  Child molestors?  Oh, ditto.  Music pirates?  The retarded?  J00s?

You're fucking with me, right? Lots of users here have said far worse than my mainly tongue-in-cheek remarks but you're fucking with me because you know I'm actually deeply bothered by this and actually give a shit, right?

Really? Who's said far worse then? If Cain wouldn't have said anything, I would.

I also don't understand how someone can be against the death penalty on principle, and then make tongue in cheek remarks about "I don't want them to be put to death, but what if something were to happen to them" -- makes those principles sound pretty disingenuous, in this context.

and were the following DISGUSTING remarks "tongue in cheek" as well?

this man (and others like him) is going to have to sit through and be subjected to so pretty exhausting, forced mental acrobatics

I don't consider use of measured sleep deprivation (I'm not talking about deadly levels, here) torture.
I don't consider placing him in uncomfortable situations that mess with his sleep cycles and sense of order to be torture.
I don't consider serving him the same meal every single day to be torture.

Tell him lies,
have everyone on the ward tell him lies,
shake up his world, confuse him,
"dissect" his mind, force him into psychologically constructed situations
which force him to look critically at himself...none of these are injust.

So long as you aren't starving him or harming his body or placing him in situations whose goal or function are to make him ultimately ultimately unwell and the goal remains taking strides towards making him (or at least those who may come after him) less afflicted.

Because REALLY WHATTHE FUCK, NAVKAT

EVERYTHING you want to do to him according to the above quote seems to be based on REVENGE, make him suffer as long as you can "pretend" it's for research.

It's pretty much the same as wishing something would "happen" to him.

Now know this: Of course you can't cure him. Nor can you cure anyone else if you were to somehow "detect" the symptoms beforehand. The ONLY thing you can do is maybe make sure they don't make victims. So that's all the research that needs to be done. Observation. Maybe some drugs but I'm no medical psychiatrist. But you can't just build a system of compassion into someone that never understood what the concept is, no matter how hard you make them work for it.

[LMNO]

Just a side observation: Perhaps people have written worse, but there's a good chance that it was more of a hyperbolic polemic than anything else, such as if I said: I HOPE THOSE FUCKERS GET STABBED IN THE NUTS WITH A SHARPENED TAZER or something to that effect.  Maybe it was the tone, or maybe the clarifications, but the difference I see is that where as I wouldn't actually want to jam a sharpened tazer into anyone's junk, your post seems to say that maybe, maybe a bit of torture/enhanced interrogation might be ok.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

So Navkat, what other classes of people should we include in the "officially we're not going to kill you, but if just happen to die, well, we won't investigate too hard" category?  Suspected terrorists?  Oh, wait, we already do that one.  Child molestors?  Oh, ditto.  Music pirates?  The retarded?  J00s?

You're fucking with me, right? Lots of users here have said far worse than my mainly tongue-in-cheek remarks but you're fucking with me because you know I'm actually deeply bothered by this and actually give a shit, right?

Really? Who's said far worse then? If Cain wouldn't have said anything, I would.

I also don't understand how someone can be against the death penalty on principle, and then make tongue in cheek remarks about "I don't want them to be put to death, but what if something were to happen to them" -- makes those principles sound pretty disingenuous, in this context.

and were the following DISGUSTING remarks "tongue in cheek" as well?

this man (and others like him) is going to have to sit through and be subjected to so pretty exhausting, forced mental acrobatics

I don't consider use of measured sleep deprivation (I'm not talking about deadly levels, here) torture.
I don't consider placing him in uncomfortable situations that mess with his sleep cycles and sense of order to be torture.
I don't consider serving him the same meal every single day to be torture.

Tell him lies,
have everyone on the ward tell him lies,
shake up his world, confuse him,
"dissect" his mind, force him into psychologically constructed situations
which force him to look critically at himself...none of these are injust.

So long as you aren't starving him or harming his body or placing him in situations whose goal or function are to make him ultimately ultimately unwell and the goal remains taking strides towards making him (or at least those who may come after him) less afflicted.

Because REALLY WHATTHE FUCK, NAVKAT

EVERYTHING you want to do to him according to the above quote seems to be based on REVENGE, make him suffer as long as you can "pretend" it's for research.

It's pretty much the same as wishing something would "happen" to him.

Now know this: Of course you can't cure him. Nor can you cure anyone else if you were to somehow "detect" the symptoms beforehand. The ONLY thing you can do is maybe make sure they don't make victims. So that's all the research that needs to be done. Observation. Maybe some drugs but I'm no medical psychiatrist. But you can't just build a system of compassion into someone that never understood what the concept is, no matter how hard you make them work for it.

"IT ISN'T RILLY TORTURE IF IT'S NONVIOLENT". 

[The Good Reverend Roger]

That video, "1 lunatic, 1 ice pick" may not be of Luka Magnotta, or his victim.  I'm getting some serious date discrepancies.

I'm also getting reports of Luka being in with the scientologists, of being a satanist, a white nationalist forced to flee Canada, of having a wife and child in Europe, of links to a South African smuggling group and to the Russian mafia. 

Luka claims he has cyberstalkers who post nonsense about him all over the web, but as far as I can tell, based on redditers and anonymous members who followed him before the most recent events, those accounts were registered by him, and a lot of fake accounts on Youtube who comment on his videos, both defending and attacking him, also belong to him.

Either way, there is likely more to this case than meets the eye.  I am going to go investigating.

I'll be curious to see what you find. I vaguely remember doing some digging when he first posted here, and being very creeped out by him.

Wait.  He posted here?

[The Good Reverend Roger]

http://www.luka-magnotta.com


How do we know if everything we are experiencing is just a dream. That a civilizaton 300 years from now arent controlling us and we are nothing more then a computer program?






Luka Magnotta

WTF?

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

Part of his e-peen self-promotion attention whoring is my guess.