On Freedom of Speech, Rush and the Turkish viewpoint

[Cain]

At the least, it has changed my view that the Armenians were a peaceful people that were killed simply because of their ethnic and religious heritage.

2/3rds of them deserved it?

Not at all. No one deserves it. However, the armenians were actively at war with the Turks, supporting a Russian invasion after engaging in Christian on Muslim violence and wiping out entire cities of Muslims. Unlike the Jews in Germany and Europe, who weren't doing anything against the government, these people had attacked government troops and local civilians multiple times... ergo not 'peaceful' and the deaths appear far more likely to be related to the military action, rather than their ethnic heritage.

I had not realized that before. I certainly hadn't realized that both sides were guilty of war crimes.

What percentage of the dead Armenians were bearing arms, and are you certain that all the affected areas were in rebellion?

Rata is also ignoring that the Armenian genocide wasn't exactly an isolated incident in Turkish history.

In 1895, a bunch of Armenian revolutionaries tried to stage a revolt, which of course failed.  The Ottoman government of the time then responded with mass reprisals of what can only be described as collective punishment - with possibly 100,000 to 300,000 Armenians killed as a response.  One of the very first massacres took place in Constantinople - very shortly after peaceful protests by the Armenian community there to stop the violence, on both sides.

The best part was, Armenian nationalism was being driven by attacks and raids by Kurdish bandits - bandits with semi-official sanction to attack Armenian and only Armenian communities.  This was because the rulers of the Ottoman Empire were insanely paranoid that there was a Christian plot to undermine the country, and that Armenian protests and petitions for reform were the first step in that plot.

But I'm sure all 300,000 of those killed were members of the Armenian Revolutionary Federation.  And that if they weren't, they were only killed because they got caught up in the violence.  Despite most of the actual fighting taking place well before the massacres.  And, of course, it wasn't really decided policy or anything, despite records showing it was government policy to "pursue a policy of severity and terror against the Armenians", and Kurdish proxies being given government assurances in order to carry out mass killings of any and all Christians they could find.

[Cain]

Oh, look.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_genocide

Hamidian Massacres, 1894–96Main article: Hamidian Massacres
Since 1876, the Ottoman state had been led by Sultan Abdul Hamid II. From the beginning of the reform period after the signing of the Berlin treaty, Hamid II attempted to stall their implementation and asserted that Armenians did not make up a majority in the provinces and that Armenian reports of abuses were largely exaggerated or false. In 1890, Hamid II created a paramilitary outfit known as the Hamidiye which was made up of Kurdish irregulars who were tasked to "deal with the Armenians as they wished."[32]:40 As Ottoman officials intentionally provoked rebellions (often as a result of over-taxation) in Armenian populated towns, such as in Sasun in 1894 and Zeitun in 1895–96, these regiments were increasingly used to deal with the Armenians by way of oppression and massacre. In some instances, Armenians successfully fought off the regiments and brought the excesses to the attention of the Great Powers in 1895 who subsequently condemned the Porte.[33]:40–2

Blah, I could have not written the whole previous post of mine 

[Phox]

There's also the issue of the Common Agricultural Policy (basically Turkey would bankrupt the program) and German fears over mass immigration into the country, as border controls would no longer apply to Turkish nationals.

However, the main objection is that Turkey doesn't seem very well subscribed to European political, social and ethical norms, even by the low standards at which current European major players understand them.  It's a country which has a distressing history of military coups, state-sponsored terrorism, corruption, ethnic violence and as a transit route for drugs and guns.  Letting Turkey into the EU would mean that those problems then become Europe's problems, and Europe isn't exactly good at dealing with a crisis, you might have noticed.

Ah, thank you, Cain. I suspected there was a broader reason. Thanks for clarifying.

[Doktor Howl]

And here's the heart of the matter, with regard to the OP...And as previously mentioned by Cain:

Efforts by the Turkish government and its agents to quash mention of the genocide have resulted in numerous scholarly, diplomatic, political and legal controversies. Prosecutors acting on their own initiative have utilized Article 301 of the Turkish Penal Code prohibiting "insulting Turkishness" to silence a number of prominent Turkish intellectuals who spoke of atrocities suffered by Armenians in the last days of the Ottoman Empire (as of yet, most of these cases have been dismissed).[153] These prosecutions have often been accompanied by hate campaigns and threats, as was the case for Hrant Dink, who was prosecuted three times for "denigrating Turkishness",[154] and murdered in 2007. Later, photographs of the assassin being honored as a hero while in police custody, posing in front of the Turkish flag with grinning policemen,[155] gave the academic community still more cause for pause with regard to engaging the Armenian issue.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Rat's entire argument seems to boil down to "Well TECHNICALLY it shouldn't be called genocide by the current legal definition because nobody can PROVE that it was premeditated".

[Doktor Howl]

Aside from the deaths, Armenians lost their wealth and property without compensation.[182] Businesses and farms were lost, and all schools, churches, hospitals, orphanages, monasteries, and graveyards became Turkish state property.[182] In January 1916, the Ottoman Minister of Commerce and Agriculture issued a decree ordering all financial institutions operating within the empire's borders to turn over Armenian assets to the government.[183] It is recorded that as much as 6 million Turkish gold pounds were seized along with real property, cash, bank deposits, and jewelry.[183] The assets were then funneled to European banks, including Deutsche and Dresdner banks.[183]

Goddamn, this sounds familiar.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

It's funny how all that documentation makes it sound so... premeditated.

So I guess what I wonder is, if they didn't have anything to do with it and it was a deposed regime who was responsible, why is the current Turkish administration so very, very vehemently opposed to officially recognizing that it was genocide?

[Golden Applesauce]

Has the US ever officially used the word "genocide" with regard to its treatment of the native americans?

[Doktor Howl]

Has the US ever officially used the word "genocide" with regard to its treatment of the native americans?

I don't know.  What I DO know that I can call it genocide (I do), and not go to prison or be killed for it.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Has the US ever officially used the word "genocide" with regard to its treatment of the native americans?

No.

Even though it was, and continues to be, a policy of genocide.

[East Coast Hustle]

Has the US ever officially used the word "genocide" with regard to its treatment of the native americans?

Goddammit, there's STILL not a :requia: emoticon.

[Bu🤠ns]

[Roly Poly Oly-Garch]

Has the US ever officially used the word "genocide" with regard to its treatment of the native americans?

No.

Even though it was, and continues to be, a policy of genocide.

SE tribes had the Supreme Court, President had the military, history got a Trail of Tears...

...and fucking Andrew Jackson on the $20 bill to this day...

"We're so sorry one of our most revered leaders grudge fucked you against any sense of decency and the laws of his own nation...but here's some meth and a casino. All better?"

is something else I probably couldn't say in Turkey.

[Cain]

No EU membership for the USA then!

[Phox]

No EU membership for the USA then!

Aww, dammit! What if we promise to be really, really good, and not, ya know, fuck with the Middle East anymore?