Robert Bly - The Mythopoetic Men's Movement

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

That and everything else that got made into a John Wayne movie.

[Elder Iptuous]

i'm thinking that it wont be too terribly long before the coming dark ages renders this conversation moot.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

That and everything else that got made into a John Wayne movie.

Or just the Southern "Lost Cause", where tens of thousands of yahoos bemoan the fact that they lost a war they were fighting so that the burden of self-determination would not rest so heavily upon their shoulders.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

i'm thinking that it wont be too terribly long before the coming dark ages renders this conversation moot.

Well, just think of all the myths and legends you'll have THEN, right?

Monolithic ruins, vaguely remembered generals who will be reshaped into Arthurian kings, etc.  Oh, and food whenever you wanted it.

Camelot with toxic water!  HOO BOY!

ETA:  All the angsty fuckers will be dead, too, so there'll be no more drum circles.  So it ain't all bad.

[Elder Iptuous]

the perfect cure for "society won't let me be manly enough"...
systemic collapse and regression to a shitty past that we had one time clawed our way out of.

[Bu🤠ns]

One thing that stands out in my mind is how rights of passages like the military and gangs seem to be rooted in aggression and violence.  That's not to say that having a good sense of strength and responsibility that comes with these groups...(maybe not so much responsibility with the later...) isn't a necessary quality that comes with manhood.  I just wonder if using that model is really what men need.  I'm really not sure--it's just that something kind of seems off with that.

Eh, most of the rights of passage in the military that I have experienced are not rooted in violence. In fact the only one that was rooted in violence was the final day of combative training.

Most of it was "take care of my shit", which in fact IS pretty epic, when the predominant cultural more is "someone take care of my shit".

I understand this clearly from my own personal experience--that's what I really mean by responsibility.  To me, being a man, means taking responsibility for oneself and those who are important.  Granted, I've never been in the military so I can't really speak to it directly and I recognize this.  It's just the context alone seems to me to be a bit misguided.  But then I'm sure I don't have the answers to what our society really needs.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

One thing that stands out in my mind is how rights of passages like the military and gangs seem to be rooted in aggression and violence.  That's not to say that having a good sense of strength and responsibility that comes with these groups...(maybe not so much responsibility with the later...) isn't a necessary quality that comes with manhood.  I just wonder if using that model is really what men need.  I'm really not sure--it's just that something kind of seems off with that.

Eh, most of the rights of passage in the military that I have experienced are not rooted in violence. In fact the only one that was rooted in violence was the final day of combative training.

Most of it was "take care of my shit", which in fact IS pretty epic, when the predominant cultural more is "someone take care of my shit".

I understand this clearly from my own personal experience--that's what I really mean by responsibility.  To me, being a man, means taking responsibility for oneself and those who are important.  Granted, I've never been in the military so I can't really speak to it directly and I recognize this.  It's just the context alone seems to me to be a bit misguided.  But then I'm sure I don't have the answers to what our society really needs.

Our society needs to stay glued together for 20 more years.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

the perfect cure for "society won't let me be manly enough"...
systemic collapse and regression to a shitty past that we had one time clawed our way out of.

Fuck that.  Let Bly's fuckers move to the Congo if that's their problem.  They will soon learn about "manliness".  I want painless dentistry more than I want to have my manhood validated.  I already know WHAT I am.  If they don't, that's their fucking problem.

[Bu🤠ns]

One thing that stands out in my mind is how rights of passages like the military and gangs seem to be rooted in aggression and violence.  That's not to say that having a good sense of strength and responsibility that comes with these groups...(maybe not so much responsibility with the later...) isn't a necessary quality that comes with manhood.  I just wonder if using that model is really what men need.  I'm really not sure--it's just that something kind of seems off with that.

Campbell used to bemoan the unisex culture a lot. Not LGBT or any of that, but identical roles for everybody. He said things like "the male body is built for combat" and "the function of the male is to secure and maintain a field for the female to bring forth the future". I don't think he literally meant that everybody nowadays needs to run around clubbing people over the head, more the fact that we have the same basic wiring as people did a long time ago and it doesn't have an outlet. The outlet could be athletics or something, he seemed to be saying that some things need to be available that are "just for guys" and some "just for women".

I don't think he meant Robert Bly mens weekends, either, though. 

i hear ya.

[Elder Iptuous]

the perfect cure for "society won't let me be manly enough"...
systemic collapse and regression to a shitty past that we had one time clawed our way out of.

Fuck that.  Let Bly's fuckers move to the Congo if that's their problem.  They will soon learn about "manliness".  I want painless dentistry more than I want to have my manhood validated.  I already know WHAT I am.  If they don't, that's their fucking problem.

exactly.
we should enjoy being pansies while we can.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

the perfect cure for "society won't let me be manly enough"...
systemic collapse and regression to a shitty past that we had one time clawed our way out of.

Fuck that.  Let Bly's fuckers move to the Congo if that's their problem.  They will soon learn about "manliness".  I want painless dentistry more than I want to have my manhood validated.  I already know WHAT I am.  If they don't, that's their fucking problem.

exactly.
we should enjoy being pansies while we can.

Absolutely.

If you insist on "civilized" equal to being a pansy.

I don't.  Pretty sure you don't, either.  Or you wouldn't be here, you'd be on some teabagger Illinois board, endlessly shouting how much you hate Obama and Mexicans.

[Don Coyote]

the perfect cure for "society won't let me be manly enough"...
systemic collapse and regression to a shitty past that we had one time clawed our way out of.

Fuck that.  Let Bly's fuckers move to the Congo if that's their problem.  They will soon learn about "manliness".  I want painless dentistry more than I want to have my manhood validated.  I already know WHAT I am.  If they don't, that's their fucking problem.

I too enjoy painless dentistry, and not having to run down my food on foot with a spear.

Dok, I take your point on rituals and myths... I think there are some American myths Washington, Johnny Appleseed etc. and we do have some rituals, as you mentioned. However, these aren't the mythic sort... they aren't the kind that guide the individual on their own journey.

Sure they are.  You're expecting them to look like myths from the classical era and the middle ages, and you're expecting rituals to look like something out of RAW or Campbell.

But they don't.  They look like everyday shit, the usual business of crawling from the cradle to the grave, and the fact that they happen every day sort of makes them invisible...If you're expecting something like Parsifal traipsing around in samite.  Parsifal is a completely outmoded concept, and so is Heracles.  They were archetypes for a lawless world.  That world no longer exists in our context (though people in Africa or parts of Mexico may have opinions of their own).

And there's no need for "chapel perilous".  It's jargon that no longer means anything to anyone outside of a very small community of people who seem to need jargon from another time to describe what they THINK they need today.  You can accomplish the same thing with the ECH-ean "Sack the fuck up" terminology, for three times the result, with the added bonus that you don't have to sound like a dork at parties.

This is one of the reasons I became disinterested in mahhhgique and paganism.

[Bu🤠ns]

the perfect cure for "society won't let me be manly enough"...
systemic collapse and regression to a shitty past that we had one time clawed our way out of.

Fuck that.  Let Bly's fuckers move to the Congo if that's their problem.  They will soon learn about "manliness".  I want painless dentistry more than I want to have my manhood validated.  I already know WHAT I am.  If they don't, that's their fucking problem.

That's it.  That's what I think is important.  I'm not really concerned with rituals, but what does concern me is seeing my fellow men walk about the world with their tail between their legs.  There just seems to be such an absence of leadership, strength and courage--albeit the problems they face are nothing more than 'first world' issues. 

[The Good Reverend Roger]

the perfect cure for "society won't let me be manly enough"...
systemic collapse and regression to a shitty past that we had one time clawed our way out of.

Fuck that.  Let Bly's fuckers move to the Congo if that's their problem.  They will soon learn about "manliness".  I want painless dentistry more than I want to have my manhood validated.  I already know WHAT I am.  If they don't, that's their fucking problem.

I too enjoy painless dentistry, and not having to run down my food on foot with a spear.

Dok, I take your point on rituals and myths... I think there are some American myths Washington, Johnny Appleseed etc. and we do have some rituals, as you mentioned. However, these aren't the mythic sort... they aren't the kind that guide the individual on their own journey.

Sure they are.  You're expecting them to look like myths from the classical era and the middle ages, and you're expecting rituals to look like something out of RAW or Campbell.

But they don't.  They look like everyday shit, the usual business of crawling from the cradle to the grave, and the fact that they happen every day sort of makes them invisible...If you're expecting something like Parsifal traipsing around in samite.  Parsifal is a completely outmoded concept, and so is Heracles.  They were archetypes for a lawless world.  That world no longer exists in our context (though people in Africa or parts of Mexico may have opinions of their own).

And there's no need for "chapel perilous".  It's jargon that no longer means anything to anyone outside of a very small community of people who seem to need jargon from another time to describe what they THINK they need today.  You can accomplish the same thing with the ECH-ean "Sack the fuck up" terminology, for three times the result, with the added bonus that you don't have to sound like a dork at parties.

This is one of the reasons I became disinterested in mahhhgique and paganism.

Well, don't get me wrong:  I think RAW had some great fucking ideas, and he found his own way to describe them.  But to slavishly memorize his ideas and use his terminology as holy writ is kind of contrary to everything the guy talked about.  He's getting the same corpse-buggering that Jesus got, though his fans tend to be a lot less malicious about it.

The funny thing is, most of what RAW talked about was stuff that Leary talked about, only RAW put it in different terms, so he himself would understand it better.  HIS disciples would be well-advised to do the same thing...Restructure what HE said, so that THEY understand it more completely.  If you can't do that, YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND THE CONCEPTS INVOLVED.

Because it would be a fucking shame if everything that Leary and RAW said was reduced to cult knowledge among the terminally bookish.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

the perfect cure for "society won't let me be manly enough"...
systemic collapse and regression to a shitty past that we had one time clawed our way out of.

Fuck that.  Let Bly's fuckers move to the Congo if that's their problem.  They will soon learn about "manliness".  I want painless dentistry more than I want to have my manhood validated.  I already know WHAT I am.  If they don't, that's their fucking problem.

That's it.  That's what I think is important.  I'm not really concerned with rituals, but what does concern me is seeing my fellow men walk about the world with their tail between their legs.  There just seems to be such an absence of leadership, strength and courage--albeit the problems they face are nothing more than 'first world' issues.

Um, to everyone else in the world, that's a mark of SUCCESS.  The ability to whine about shit that doesn't matter, rather than the fact that your child has rickets and your wife was carried off by the local warlord's troops and left in a 55 gallon drum after the party.