A curiosity about the South, for people who live here

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

But nobody said the Klan wasn't bad. And nobody said slavery was good. And nobody said blacks were anything like respected or equal in the South. And nobody said the justice system wasn't horribly corrupt to the point of practically enouraging murder (except GA maybe, depending on whether he's trolling or not, which I can't seem to tell). All that's been said here boils down to the following few statements:

- Despite the morally ruinous foundations of the Confederacy, the South should have had every legal right to secede, and the Civil War really was a "War of Northern Aggression," in that the justification on the North's side had nothing to do with slavery or equality and everything to do with power and greed, as usual.

- The Civil War exacerbated the race problem in the South. Whereas blacks were considered subhuman before the war, after the war they were considered both subhuman and representative of a mortal wound to the South. As a result the cultural changes that have opened the South and dissolved (some of the) racism there have been harder to fight than they otherwise would have been.

Nobody here is condoning slavery or racism. So let's leave out the knee-jerk reactions and the "you disagree with Commonly Held Conception X; therefore you are by definition a proponent of the opposite of Commonly Held Conception X." In reality the common perception of the South is a  caricature, grounded in and propagated by the same kind of ignorance and Us vs. Them bullshit that allows racism to thrive.

I wasn't talking about the discussion here.  I was referring to the recurring meme that I have seen every time I have been to the Southeast.

I've only been once that I can recall with any clarity. My dad's aunt and uncle lived there, and that old lady spent an entire 2 days cooking and baking for us ahead of our arrival. When we arrived, there was more food than I've ever seen in a single kitchen, and it was all very very good. Fried chicken, apple pie, peach cobbler, dumplings. Etc. Etc. Etc. I remember that food, and I remember my great-uncle's hands being hardly more than knots of arthritis caused by handling radioactive material at one of the Manhattan Project's secret bases in Tennessee in the 30s and 40s.

Everyone I met in the South was nice. But then, my family is white, and I can admit I have no idea what the fuck I'm talking about when it comes to Southern racism -- nor can I, except to say I know it's there and I deplore it. As for whether they're stupid or not... who isn't?

Since we're doing anecdotal evidence, once a seismograph crew from Kentucky stayed in my home town for awhile.

They were always blowing money and throwing parties and we used to go hang around with them a lot. They'd feed everybody, get everybody drunk, high, whatever they wanted, no problem.

One day they quit talking to me. At all. It was like they'd collectively decided I was a baby raper or something.

I got one of my friends to ask what it was about. She came back and told me I'd been seen "with a car full of n-s".

Fuck 'em.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

Of course the south won. They were fighting for freedom, which is always the right thing to do - it was a moral victory.

Raw and stinking bullshit.  They were fighting for a static aristocracy.

They were fighting for the freedom to determine how to run their own economy and government. You can't really say that someone has the God-given right to pursue happiness, and then turn around and say "Well, but only if your method of pursuing happiness doesn't include human trafficking." These were honest, Christian farmers being faced with the possibility of being unable to leave their workforce to their children. Similarly, being forced allow illiterate non-citizens with no stake in the country to cast votes defeats the entire purpose of democracy - it's not self-determination if an outside power is manipulating the voting population to  its own ends.

It's not Freedom if you can't abuse it.

I'm leaving this thread now, out of sheer depression brought on by watching two supposed bipeds defend/support this sort of shit.

WHICH IS EXACTLY

          why you need to stay and this thread needs to happen. vex and ga are doing an outstanding job, imo, in bringing a voice of reason to this issue. the very fact that most immediate reaction to any of this underlines the idea that people from the south are not people, but some kind of sub human, demands this thread to exist. nigel brought it out in point, the issues connected to the south and the confederacy  are cloaked in so much womp that even incredibly intelligent folks have only frothing response to all of it. this is important dialogue.

I never said people from the South are subhuman.  They are all too human, and many of them carry an all-too infectious meme.  My personal (anecdotal, but that's all I have to work with) experience in the South has been universally shitty, with 90% of everyone I've met being at least partially billygoon. 

That's been my personal experience everywhere in America. And I honestly haven't noticed it being any worse in the South than, say, Utah or Oregon or Michigan or Maine.

Texas is bad. But I've never had Texas people TOTALLY FREEZE ME OUT because I gave some Black friends a ride someplace.

[tyrannosaurus vex]

I've only been once that I can recall with any clarity. My dad's aunt and uncle lived there, and that old lady spent an entire 2 days cooking and baking for us ahead of our arrival. When we arrived, there was more food than I've ever seen in a single kitchen, and it was all very very good. Fried chicken, apple pie, peach cobbler, dumplings. Etc. Etc. Etc. I remember that food, and I remember my great-uncle's hands being hardly more than knots of arthritis caused by handling radioactive material at one of the Manhattan Project's secret bases in Tennessee in the 30s and 40s.

Everyone I met in the South was nice. But then, my family is white, and I can admit I have no idea what the fuck I'm talking about when it comes to Southern racism -- nor can I, except to say I know it's there and I deplore it. As for whether they're stupid or not... who isn't?

Since we're doing anecdotal evidence, once a seismograph crew from Kentucky stayed in my home town for awhile.

They were always blowing money and throwing parties and we used to go hang around with them a lot. They'd feed everybody, get everybody drunk, high, whatever they wanted, no problem.

One day they quit talking to me. At all. It was like they'd collectively decided I was a baby raper or something.

I got one of my friends to ask what it was about. She came back and told me I'd been seen "with a car full of n-s".

Fuck 'em.

You don't like to read thoroughly, do you.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

The Southeastern Meme:

1.  "America is for 'real Americans'".  The definition of "real Americans" varies to a degree, but it typically means American born people with conservative Christian & jingoistic views.  Blacks and Hispanics may be excluded regardless of the circumstances of their birth.

2.  "Nuke the bastards."  The identity of the bastards may change from time to time, and "nuke" may be substituted with "invade", "bomb", or "starve 'em out".  Just because.

3.  "Women are only good for fucking and fucking up."  This is a fairly rare component of the meme, usually found in the Appalachias and Texas.  In other areas, it may simply be "women have their place; they should stay in it".

4.  "Support the Troops."  Nobody knows what the fuck this means.  It seems to have something to do with supporting wars regardless of motive and regardless of cost in cash or human lives.

5.  "Education < a punch in the face."  If you feel intimidated intellectually, beat the fucker up.

6.  "NASCAR = Patriotism".  No shit.

7.  "The South shall rise again." (Lost Cause)  IE, we were right to fight, and one day we'll do it again.

8.  "There's a difference between Black people and niggers".  Nuff said.

9.  "Any White woman who sleeps with or even associates with non-Whites is 'tainted'."  This is pretty much EVERYWHERE.

10.  "This is a Christian nation, so faggots should die."

There's probably some that I've forgotten, but those are the major points.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

I've only been once that I can recall with any clarity. My dad's aunt and uncle lived there, and that old lady spent an entire 2 days cooking and baking for us ahead of our arrival. When we arrived, there was more food than I've ever seen in a single kitchen, and it was all very very good. Fried chicken, apple pie, peach cobbler, dumplings. Etc. Etc. Etc. I remember that food, and I remember my great-uncle's hands being hardly more than knots of arthritis caused by handling radioactive material at one of the Manhattan Project's secret bases in Tennessee in the 30s and 40s.

Everyone I met in the South was nice. But then, my family is white, and I can admit I have no idea what the fuck I'm talking about when it comes to Southern racism -- nor can I, except to say I know it's there and I deplore it. As for whether they're stupid or not... who isn't?

Since we're doing anecdotal evidence, once a seismograph crew from Kentucky stayed in my home town for awhile.

They were always blowing money and throwing parties and we used to go hang around with them a lot. They'd feed everybody, get everybody drunk, high, whatever they wanted, no problem.

One day they quit talking to me. At all. It was like they'd collectively decided I was a baby raper or something.

I got one of my friends to ask what it was about. She came back and told me I'd been seen "with a car full of n-s".

Fuck 'em.

You don't like to read thoroughly, do you.

I read it. I was giving you a possible outcome if you're seen "fraternizing".

[East Coast Hustle]

The Southeastern Meme:

1.  "America is for 'real Americans'".  The definition of "real Americans" varies to a degree, but it typically means American born people with conservative Christian & jingoistic views.  Blacks and Hispanics may be excluded regardless of the circumstances of their birth.

2.  "Nuke the bastards."  The identity of the bastards may change from time to time, and "nuke" may be substituted with "invade", "bomb", or "starve 'em out".  Just because.

3.  "Women are only good for fucking and fucking up."  This is a fairly rare component of the meme, usually found in the Appalachias and Texas.  In other areas, it may simply be "women have their place; they should stay in it".

4.  "Support the Troops."  Nobody knows what the fuck this means.  It seems to have something to do with supporting wars regardless of motive and regardless of cost in cash or human lives.

5.  "Education < a punch in the face."  If you feel intimidated intellectually, beat the fucker up.

6.  "NASCAR = Patriotism".  No shit.

7.  "The South shall rise again." (Lost Cause)  IE, we were right to fight, and one day we'll do it again.

8.  "There's a difference between Black people and niggers".  Nuff said.

9.  "Any White woman who sleeps with or even associates with non-Whites is 'tainted'."  This is pretty much EVERYWHERE.

10.  "This is a Christian nation, so faggots should die."

There's probably some that I've forgotten, but those are the major points.

With the exception of the "South shall rise again" bit, that's the exact same as everywhere else in America. I am, however, enjoying the irony of watching people turn southerners into "Other" for the crime of, uhh, turning other people into "Other".

[East Coast Hustle]

I would also suggest that people who haven't spent much if any time in the southeast have little to no business generalizing an entire region of the country in such a manner. It comes off as foolish at best, at worst it reeks of bigotry.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

The Southeastern Meme:

1.  "America is for 'real Americans'".  The definition of "real Americans" varies to a degree, but it typically means American born people with conservative Christian & jingoistic views.  Blacks and Hispanics may be excluded regardless of the circumstances of their birth.

2.  "Nuke the bastards."  The identity of the bastards may change from time to time, and "nuke" may be substituted with "invade", "bomb", or "starve 'em out".  Just because.

3.  "Women are only good for fucking and fucking up."  This is a fairly rare component of the meme, usually found in the Appalachias and Texas.  In other areas, it may simply be "women have their place; they should stay in it".

4.  "Support the Troops."  Nobody knows what the fuck this means.  It seems to have something to do with supporting wars regardless of motive and regardless of cost in cash or human lives.

5.  "Education < a punch in the face."  If you feel intimidated intellectually, beat the fucker up.

6.  "NASCAR = Patriotism".  No shit.

7.  "The South shall rise again." (Lost Cause)  IE, we were right to fight, and one day we'll do it again.

8.  "There's a difference between Black people and niggers".  Nuff said.

9.  "Any White woman who sleeps with or even associates with non-Whites is 'tainted'."  This is pretty much EVERYWHERE.

10.  "This is a Christian nation, so faggots should die."

There's probably some that I've forgotten, but those are the major points.

With the exception of the "South shall rise again" bit, that's the exact same as everywhere else in America. I am, however, enjoying the irony of watching people turn southerners into "Other" for the crime of, uhh, turning other people into "Other".

As I said, keeping the South was a mistake, as the bastards contaminated the rest of the country.

And as far as I'm concerned, all humans are "Other".  That's why I hang out with freaks.

[tyrannosaurus vex]

The Southeastern Meme:

1.  "America is for 'real Americans'".  The definition of "real Americans" varies to a degree, but it typically means American born people with conservative Christian & jingoistic views.  Blacks and Hispanics may be excluded regardless of the circumstances of their birth.

2.  "Nuke the bastards."  The identity of the bastards may change from time to time, and "nuke" may be substituted with "invade", "bomb", or "starve 'em out".  Just because.

3.  "Women are only good for fucking and fucking up."  This is a fairly rare component of the meme, usually found in the Appalachias and Texas.  In other areas, it may simply be "women have their place; they should stay in it".

4.  "Support the Troops."  Nobody knows what the fuck this means.  It seems to have something to do with supporting wars regardless of motive and regardless of cost in cash or human lives.

5.  "Education < a punch in the face."  If you feel intimidated intellectually, beat the fucker up.

6.  "NASCAR = Patriotism".  No shit.

7.  "The South shall rise again." (Lost Cause)  IE, we were right to fight, and one day we'll do it again.

8.  "There's a difference between Black people and niggers".  Nuff said.

9.  "Any White woman who sleeps with or even associates with non-Whites is 'tainted'."  This is pretty much EVERYWHERE.

10.  "This is a Christian nation, so faggots should die."

There's probably some that I've forgotten, but those are the major points.

This meme isn't limited to the Southeast. It's basically the Republican Party Platform, without all the shit that makes it playable on TV. HALF OF AMERICA identifies with this, or at least enough of it to make the parts they don't identify with seem tolerable. And much of this, or at least the depth to which it is ingrained, is directly due to the perceived attack on Southern culture during Reconstruction. These ideas became entrenched in the minds of anyone who didn't want the Old Ways to die -- even though they NEEDED to die, even though it was a GOOD THING to kill them. The bitter, disgruntled, hateful former Confederate became the bitter, disgruntled, hateful American Conservative.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I would also suggest that people who haven't spent much if any time in the southeast have little to no business generalizing an entire region of the country in such a manner. It comes off as foolish at best, at worst it reeks of bigotry.

I've spent literally years in the Southwest, as described as "South of the Mason/Dixon Line, and everything East of the West border of Texas."  This particular hate is based entirely on experience.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

The Southeastern Meme:

1.  "America is for 'real Americans'".  The definition of "real Americans" varies to a degree, but it typically means American born people with conservative Christian & jingoistic views.  Blacks and Hispanics may be excluded regardless of the circumstances of their birth.

2.  "Nuke the bastards."  The identity of the bastards may change from time to time, and "nuke" may be substituted with "invade", "bomb", or "starve 'em out".  Just because.

3.  "Women are only good for fucking and fucking up."  This is a fairly rare component of the meme, usually found in the Appalachias and Texas.  In other areas, it may simply be "women have their place; they should stay in it".

4.  "Support the Troops."  Nobody knows what the fuck this means.  It seems to have something to do with supporting wars regardless of motive and regardless of cost in cash or human lives.

5.  "Education < a punch in the face."  If you feel intimidated intellectually, beat the fucker up.

6.  "NASCAR = Patriotism".  No shit.

7.  "The South shall rise again." (Lost Cause)  IE, we were right to fight, and one day we'll do it again.

8.  "There's a difference between Black people and niggers".  Nuff said.

9.  "Any White woman who sleeps with or even associates with non-Whites is 'tainted'."  This is pretty much EVERYWHERE.

10.  "This is a Christian nation, so faggots should die."

There's probably some that I've forgotten, but those are the major points.

This meme isn't limited to the Southeast. It's basically the Republican Party Platform, without all the shit that makes it playable on TV. HALF OF AMERICA identifies with this, or at least enough of it to make the parts they don't identify with seem tolerable. And much of this, or at least the depth to which it is ingrained, is directly due to the perceived attack on Southern culture during Reconstruction. These ideas became entrenched in the minds of anyone who didn't want the Old Ways to die -- even though they NEEDED to die, even though it was a GOOD THING to kill them. The bitter, disgruntled, hateful former Confederate became the bitter, disgruntled, hateful American Conservative.

See my post directly above yours.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I do find it interesting that Cain's description of the South's military strategy makes him a bigot of some kind.  So now we've reached "revisionist history is canon:  to argue implies racism".

[tyrannosaurus vex]

I do find it interesting that Cain's description of the South's military strategy makes him a bigot of some kind.  So now we've reached "revisionist history is canon:  to argue implies racism".

That discussion was dropped when Cain clarified he was talking about the leaders and not the populace.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Of course the south won. They were fighting for freedom, which is always the right thing to do - it was a moral victory.

Raw and stinking bullshit.  They were fighting for a static aristocracy.

They were fighting for the freedom to determine how to run their own economy and government. You can't really say that someone has the God-given right to pursue happiness, and then turn around and say "Well, but only if your method of pursuing happiness doesn't include human trafficking." These were honest, Christian farmers being faced with the possibility of being unable to leave their workforce to their children. Similarly, being forced allow illiterate non-citizens with no stake in the country to cast votes defeats the entire purpose of democracy - it's not self-determination if an outside power is manipulating the voting population to  its own ends.

It's not Freedom if you can't abuse it.

I'm leaving this thread now, out of sheer depression brought on by watching two supposed bipeds defend/support this sort of shit.

WHICH IS EXACTLY

          why you need to stay and this thread needs to happen. vex and ga are doing an outstanding job, imo, in bringing a voice of reason to this issue. the very fact that most immediate reaction to any of this underlines the idea that people from the south are not people, but some kind of sub human, demands this thread to exist. nigel brought it out in point, the issues connected to the south and the confederacy  are cloaked in so much womp that even incredibly intelligent folks have only frothing response to all of it. this is important dialogue.

I never said people from the South are subhuman.  They are all too human, and many of them carry an all-too infectious meme.  My personal (anecdotal, but that's all I have to work with) experience in the South has been universally shitty, with 90% of everyone I've met being at least partially billygoon.

Thank you, you nailed it.

Yes, they're human, but the way to look at it IS as an infectious meme, not "Oh the klan wasn't so bad".

But nobody said the Klan wasn't bad.

Somebody did.

Exactly! Similarly, the KKK was a social club where guys could go to get away from their wives. They raised money for charity and did volunteer work and stuff, but all anyone associates with pointy white hoods is a relatively small number of lynchings allegedly carried out by rotten eggs who also happened to be members. Allegedly, because compared to the numbers of murders the KKK was accused of, almost nobody was ever convicted of homicide.

I am so terribly, terribly not surprised.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I do find it interesting that Cain's description of the South's military strategy makes him a bigot of some kind.  So now we've reached "revisionist history is canon:  to argue implies racism".

That discussion was dropped when Cain clarified he was talking about the leaders and not the populace.

Dropped by whom?  If I were him, and it was merely "dropped" after an accusation of bigotry, I'd never speak to anyone here ever again.