A curiosity about the South, for people who live here

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I'm not particularly interested in ain't-it-awfulling about the prevalence of racism. At this point, I don't think we have any members who think racism is a good idea, so what's the point of condemning it? Yeah, you're right, but it doesn't advance any semblance of a conversation.

The much more compelling question to me is the structure of the worldview that allows for this romantic view of the South before, during, and immediately after the Civil War, and continuing sympathy for the Confederate cause, however that "cause" is remembered. How do otherwise intelligent people end up carrying around that much bigotry and revisionist history in their heads? Responding with "they're stupid / human / manipulated by their leaders for political gain" just short-circuits a discussion that could otherwise have had new ideas to chew on.

Perhaps not surprisingly, that's a much less interesting topic.

http://lesswrong.com/lw/ju/rationalization/

They start from a conclusion, "I am not a bad person", and then they gather evidence around them to support that, and ignore/dismiss/find work-arounds for all the contrary evidence.

There are quite large fields of research discussing this behavior.  Much less discussed are the finer points that Roger, v3x, ECH, and others (quite a few others, I don't mean to leave anyone out, so don't be mad if I didn't mention you, apologies) are bringing up.

This is true.  Tyrants don't show up all bloody-handed one day, just because.

They show up when people grow weary of the burden of self-determination and demand them.

And if you're not willing to discuss all of the ramifications of a given conflict or event, then you aren't discussing the event at all.

[tyrannosaurus vex]

Dismissing the entire Confederate cause with something a starkly simple as racism and slavery is a mistake. Nit because the Confederates deserve any sympathy for their tactics or their justifications which were, mostly, bad; but because the rights they fought for were nevertheless rights we should have. That they grounded them in such moral depravity is tragic, because it is easy now for people to assume anyone who wants the Government to fuck off, or who thinks a town or a county or a state might know how to handle itself without any help from 2000 miles away, is backward and evil.

Civil Rights are a legacy of the Civil Rights movement, not of the war. All the war left us with is a permanently schizophrenic political culture and a complete disconnect between the two hemispheres of the addled American brain. Half if us want to do the right thing in the wrong way, and the other half of us want to do the wring thing in the wrong way. There is no right way, of course. We killed that with guns and stupid, and we sit outside by its grave all night long making sure it doesn't get resurrected.

If America teaches the world one thing by the time it finally dwindles away and dies, it'll be that no matter the adversity they face, the Bastards will always find a way to kill something beautiful.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Dismissing the entire Confederate cause with something a starkly simple as racism and slavery is a mistake. Nit because the Confederates deserve any sympathy for their tactics or their justifications which were, mostly, bad; but because the rights they fought for were nevertheless rights we should have. That they grounded them in such moral depravity is tragic, because it is easy now for people to assume anyone who wants the Government to fuck off, or who thinks a town or a county or a state might know how to handle itself without any help from 2000 miles away, is backward and evil.

I agree with you.  So does Lysander Spooner.  And this, I think, was part & parcel with what I was trying to say.  After the civil war, the previously (somewhat) isolated North & South became more integrated with each other, to the detriment of both.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I am about ten pages behind and have no intention of catching up, but I'm super irritated with this thread because petty nitpicking over shit like whether the original KKK was founded with the intention of being assholes, whether it was stupid of the South to attempt secession, monkeylike mindless demonizing of the enemy, accusing people of supporting racism, and other such bullshit has completely derailed the thread from the topic which I found interesting and relevant, which is, from a sociological perspective, whether (and why) the Union winning the Civil war ultimately made things worse for race relations in the South, the reasons white people in the South are attached to the Confederate identity, and whether attachment to that identity automatically means supporting racism and slavery. I would argue that it does not, any more than being a Democrat does, despite its historic connection. I could talk about why that identity is psychologically important for white people in the South, and why the rest of the US does everyone a disservice by insisting that all Confederate leaders were monsters by default, and the Confederate flag HAS TO EQUAL RACISM. It's a fallacy intended to shame the vanquished into abandoning their cultural identity; a form of cultural conquest.

I thought it might be a valuable discussion of a topic that is essentially taboo in our society.

But I am completely fucking done with this conversation, because there is nothing useful to be had or learned here. It continues to revolve around BUT THE SOUTH WAS BAD AND THE NORTH WAS GOOD, which is complete and utter simplistic black and white bullshit that absolutely disregards the realities of all wars everywhere ever. It's monkeys, all the way down.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I'm reasonably certain that I spelled out the fact that the North was bad as well, and that the mixture of the two was worse than the sum of their parts.

[AFK]

It sounds like you're presenting a larger version of Nigel's concept, "attack the idea, not the person."

As in, you can (should) attack Obama's policies of drone strikes as evil, et al, but you can't (shouldn't) call Obama evil because he's a Black Christian from Chicago.

Something like that?

Precisely.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I'd like to propose "The PD Effect":  The more hostile, vile, and unenjoyable a thread becomes, the more likely that everyone will look at that thread to the exclusion of all others.

It's like a car wreck.  Everyone HAS to rubberneck.

And there's not much point to doing anything else, because everyone else is doing the same thing, and traffic's not moving anyway.

OOK!

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

I'd like to propose "The PD Effect":  The more hostile, vile, and unenjoyable a thread becomes, the more likely that everyone will look at that thread to the exclusion of all others.

It's like a car wreck.  Everyone HAS to rubberneck.

And there's not much point to doing anything else, because everyone else is doing the same thing, and traffic's not moving anyway.

OOK!

Yeah. "Show unread posts since last visit". "Re: A curiosity about the South, for people who live here *new*"

Shit.

Blather.

Voice of reason.

Voice of reason misconstrued into blather by someone else.

More shit.

Repeat.

Repeat.

100 pages. Fuck.

Repeat.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

The problem isn't the topic, of course.

It's that we can't behave.

[tyrannosaurus vex]

Dismissing the entire Confederate cause with something a starkly simple as racism and slavery is a mistake. Nit because the Confederates deserve any sympathy for their tactics or their justifications which were, mostly, bad; but because the rights they fought for were nevertheless rights we should have. That they grounded them in such moral depravity is tragic, because it is easy now for people to assume anyone who wants the Government to fuck off, or who thinks a town or a county or a state might know how to handle itself without any help from 2000 miles away, is backward and evil.

I agree with you.  So does Lysander Spooner.  And this, I think, was part & parcel with what I was trying to say.  After the civil war, the previously (somewhat) isolated North & South became more integrated with each other, to the detriment of both.

Wait... so... when I see an attempt to legislate a better society through laws that offend my sense of individuality, my reaction may be just as incorrect as someone else's instinctive dry-heaving at every sight of the Confederate flag? Fuck.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Dismissing the entire Confederate cause with something a starkly simple as racism and slavery is a mistake. Nit because the Confederates deserve any sympathy for their tactics or their justifications which were, mostly, bad; but because the rights they fought for were nevertheless rights we should have. That they grounded them in such moral depravity is tragic, because it is easy now for people to assume anyone who wants the Government to fuck off, or who thinks a town or a county or a state might know how to handle itself without any help from 2000 miles away, is backward and evil.

I agree with you.  So does Lysander Spooner.  And this, I think, was part & parcel with what I was trying to say.  After the civil war, the previously (somewhat) isolated North & South became more integrated with each other, to the detriment of both.

Wait... so... when I see an attempt to legislate a better society through laws that offend my sense of individuality, my reaction may be just as incorrect as someone else's instinctive dry-heaving at every sight of the Confederate flag? Fuck.

What?

[tyrannosaurus vex]

Dismissing the entire Confederate cause with something a starkly simple as racism and slavery is a mistake. Nit because the Confederates deserve any sympathy for their tactics or their justifications which were, mostly, bad; but because the rights they fought for were nevertheless rights we should have. That they grounded them in such moral depravity is tragic, because it is easy now for people to assume anyone who wants the Government to fuck off, or who thinks a town or a county or a state might know how to handle itself without any help from 2000 miles away, is backward and evil.

I agree with you.  So does Lysander Spooner.  And this, I think, was part & parcel with what I was trying to say.  After the civil war, the previously (somewhat) isolated North & South became more integrated with each other, to the detriment of both.

Wait... so... when I see an attempt to legislate a better society through laws that offend my sense of individuality, my reaction may be just as incorrect as someone else's instinctive dry-heaving at every sight of the Confederate flag? Fuck.

What?

The North overran the South. And the South infected the North. Until your comment, my understanding was a one-sided interpretation of history, namely that the North has demonized the South for 150 years. Conversely, the South has demonized the North, and part of my own filter is tinted by that -- which I had not detected until now.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Dismissing the entire Confederate cause with something a starkly simple as racism and slavery is a mistake. Nit because the Confederates deserve any sympathy for their tactics or their justifications which were, mostly, bad; but because the rights they fought for were nevertheless rights we should have. That they grounded them in such moral depravity is tragic, because it is easy now for people to assume anyone who wants the Government to fuck off, or who thinks a town or a county or a state might know how to handle itself without any help from 2000 miles away, is backward and evil.

I agree with you.  So does Lysander Spooner.  And this, I think, was part & parcel with what I was trying to say.  After the civil war, the previously (somewhat) isolated North & South became more integrated with each other, to the detriment of both.

Wait... so... when I see an attempt to legislate a better society through laws that offend my sense of individuality, my reaction may be just as incorrect as someone else's instinctive dry-heaving at every sight of the Confederate flag? Fuck.

What?

The North overran the South. And the South infected the North. Until your comment, my understanding was a one-sided interpretation of history, namely that the North has demonized the South for 150 years. Conversely, the South has demonized the North, and part of my own filter is tinted by that -- which I had not detected until now.

Well, that's been my whole point.  You can't invade or be invaded without being influenced by the opposite side.  Action/reaction.  What else could you possibly expect?

[tyrannosaurus vex]

Dismissing the entire Confederate cause with something a starkly simple as racism and slavery is a mistake. Nit because the Confederates deserve any sympathy for their tactics or their justifications which were, mostly, bad; but because the rights they fought for were nevertheless rights we should have. That they grounded them in such moral depravity is tragic, because it is easy now for people to assume anyone who wants the Government to fuck off, or who thinks a town or a county or a state might know how to handle itself without any help from 2000 miles away, is backward and evil.

I agree with you.  So does Lysander Spooner.  And this, I think, was part & parcel with what I was trying to say.  After the civil war, the previously (somewhat) isolated North & South became more integrated with each other, to the detriment of both.

Wait... so... when I see an attempt to legislate a better society through laws that offend my sense of individuality, my reaction may be just as incorrect as someone else's instinctive dry-heaving at every sight of the Confederate flag? Fuck.

What?

The North overran the South. And the South infected the North. Until your comment, my understanding was a one-sided interpretation of history, namely that the North has demonized the South for 150 years. Conversely, the South has demonized the North, and part of my own filter is tinted by that -- which I had not detected until now.

Well, that's been my whole point.  You can't invade or be invaded without being influenced by the opposite side.  Action/reaction.  What else could you possibly expect?

I EXPECT PONIES.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

nm