How most men, even good caring men, have no clue what women go through

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Send us a postcard.

I didn't say I was leaving PD.  I said I was leaving anything resembling an activist or involved role in feminism outside of my home and my workplace.

But fuck you anyway.

Will you stop with this? It basically comes across as "if those two people won't play the way I want them to play, then I'm not playing with anyone".

Also, I replied to your post, first message on this page. I didn't quote, just talked about some of the points you raised.

Here's my problem, Nigel:  I consider PD to be a collection of the best people I know.  If they think I must be marginalized to take part, then what are the odds that anyone else will be any different?

I realize that it looks like I am overreacting.  I probably am.  However, this shit has been bugging me since the first blow up, back on the 19th or 20th of last month, and now we're back on it, and the scabs have been torn off.

I do appreciate your response, and I said so in the thread in which I was ranting.

What I don't appreciate is that the two people who told me that I must be subordinate have blown it off completely.  Is it unreasonable to be this pissed off?  Probably, and I'll probably be over it in an hour or so...But right now, I AM feeling incredibly bent out of shape, as two people I respect and admire on most issues have decided that my concerns are not valid enough to address on this issue.  I was talked around, the same way you were this morning.  I don't consider that acceptable behavior for myself, and I don't see the need to tolerate it from others. 

But yeah, you're right, and I'll stop.  It IS a bad place to stop, though.

Like I said to ECH in PM, if it's a couple of specific people you're pissed at, call them out for their specific behavior or lack of acknowledgement. When you don't, it has the effect, from my perspective, of lumping us all together under a "You People", and then I feel like my contributions are being dismissed along with theirs. Which, to be honest, hurts my feelings.

Yeah, you're right.  I should have acknowledged you in the post in THIS thread, as well as in that thread, as chances are good you wouldn't see the acknowledgement in that thread before the butthurt in this thread.  Or words to that effect.

As for the Garbo and SP, I've spoken my piece, and I don't think there's any real chance that there's any mistaking what I was talking about.  I'm stopping the train, though, as you suggested.  I don't think it's the best idea, but it's better than harping on it all day.

[Juana]

How blessed he was that you would take the time to talk to him, Faust.

Roger, sorry about that. I've been coming back on and off since you first posted that and mulling it over. I'm probably just being slow, but I'm not understanding the concern, exactly. I'm probably missing something, but I've re-read the thread from OP to your post and then up to your thank-you to Nigel like twice, and I can't figure it out.

edited for clarity.

[Faust]

How blessed he was that you would take the time to talk to him, Faust.

Roger, sorry about that. I've been coming back on and off since you first posted that and mulling it over. I'm probably just being slow, but I'm not seeing the concern, exactly. I'm probably missing something, but I've re-read the thread from OP to your post and then up to your thank-you to Nigel like twice, and I can't figure it out.

About the time I registered to this site I came about a hairs breath away from being that guy. Unless someone is flashing their knob, grabbing, or shitting themselves I think the bus example is a bad one.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

How blessed he was that you would take the time to talk to him, Faust.

Roger, sorry about that. I've been coming back on and off since you first posted that and mulling it over. I'm probably just being slow, but I'm not seeing the concern, exactly. I'm probably missing something, but I've re-read the thread from OP to your post and then up to your thank-you to Nigel like twice, and I can't figure it out.

I was referring back to a few comments made in the patriarchy thread, in which it was made clear to me that I can be "allies" but not an equal in any struggle for equality.

When this was objected to by myself and others, we were laughed at, and something about "FUCK YOU FOR EXCLUDING ME" - alongside a whole bunch of other appeal to ridicule shit - was said (among other things), mostly by Signora Paesior, but also in part by you.

That got under my skin pretty badly, but I let it drop with the rest of the conversation.  Then these threads started, and it came back to the surface.  I figured out what bothered me about the whole thing, which was the patent absurdity of the idea that:

"You must take a subordinate/second-class role in this fight for equality."

Say that a few times, see if it sounds funny.  Then ask yourself what the fuck was going through your head (to a small degree) and SP's head (to a large degree).  Fuck that, I already have a pretty good idea of what was going through SP's head, and a notion of what was going through yours.

Unfortunately, the train has stopped and my opinion is for the moment fixed...IE, I'm too fucking angry to be rational about this.  Maybe later.  Or maybe I shouldn't have dropped the subject the first time around, because I tend to stew over things, sometimes.

[Freeky]

Who said what where now?

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Who said what where now?

I was referring back to a few comments made in the patriarchy thread,

[Juana]

I'd thought we'd resolved that already. I'm sorry, Roger. Let me know if you want to talk about it later?

Who said what where now?

Like month ago, there was a discussion about men's place in feminism. SP and I were arguing that men ought to let women lead the movement when dealing specifically women's issues. It sort of spiraled out from there.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I'd thought we'd resolved that already. I'm sorry, Roger. Let me know if you want to talk about it later?

We resolved part of it (the man tears thing, for example).  The parts we didn't resolve were:

1.  The idea of anyone leading, and the implicit idea of subordination, which is the problem, not a solution.

2.  The braying mockery from Signora Paesior, and the lack of anything said about it, and in fact some agreement with it.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

How blessed he was that you would take the time to talk to him, Faust.

Roger, sorry about that. I've been coming back on and off since you first posted that and mulling it over. I'm probably just being slow, but I'm not seeing the concern, exactly. I'm probably missing something, but I've re-read the thread from OP to your post and then up to your thank-you to Nigel like twice, and I can't figure it out.

I was referring back to a few comments made in the patriarchy thread, in which it was made clear to me that I can be "allies" but not an equal in any struggle for equality.

When this was objected to by myself and others, we were laughed at, and something about "FUCK YOU FOR EXCLUDING ME" - alongside a whole bunch of other appeal to ridicule shit - was said (among other things), mostly by Signora Paesior, but also in part by you.

That got under my skin pretty badly, but I let it drop with the rest of the conversation.  Then these threads started, and it came back to the surface.  I figured out what bothered me about the whole thing, which was the patent absurdity of the idea that:

"You must take a subordinate/second-class role in this fight for equality."

Say that a few times, see if it sounds funny.  Then ask yourself what the fuck was going through your head (to a small degree) and SP's head (to a large degree).  Fuck that, I already have a pretty good idea of what was going through SP's head, and a notion of what was going through yours.

Unfortunately, the train has stopped and my opinion is for the moment fixed...IE, I'm too fucking angry to be rational about this.  Maybe later.  Or maybe I shouldn't have dropped the subject the first time around, because I tend to stew over things, sometimes.

It gets compared to white people who support black people trying to be "leadership", or "define it" or whatever. There's a hierarchy being implied when there shouldn't even be a hierarchy, or if there is one, it should be horizontal. I don't think any of the guys here are trying to be the "face" of feminism any more than I have delusions of being Malcolm X. Doesn't mean I can't participate or I don't get any input, I've never been treated like that. I've never been told to shut up or butt out when I invited a black person to sit at my table while the yahoos were giving us the stinkeye, or shut some asshole down for telling race jokes.

[Faust]

2.  The braying mockery from Signora Paesior, and the lack of anything said about it, and in fact some agreement with it.

She is very disingenuous as to the parts she will comment on or respond to. To be perfectly honest I feel she is a shit stirrer, sorry signor.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

2.  The braying mockery from Signora Paesior, and the lack of anything said about it, and in fact some agreement with it.

She is very disingenuous as to the parts she will comment on or respond to. To be perfectly honest I feel she is a shit stirrer, sorry signor.

She ignores me in these threads. 

[The Good Reverend Roger]

2.  The braying mockery from Signora Paesior, and the lack of anything said about it, and in fact some agreement with it.

She is very disingenuous as to the parts she will comment on or respond to. To be perfectly honest I feel she is a shit stirrer, sorry signor.

That's the opinion I'm starting to form...I'm also thinking there's maybe a bit of rather nasty malice there, too.  However, I think it might be a bad idea for me to develop and maintain a conclusion today, so I'll hold off for the time being.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

How do you quantify somebody's contribution, anyway? I wouldn't marginalize Andrew Goodman and Michael Schwerner.

[Freeky]

Signora has been extremely disingenuous. The appeal to authority at ECH was pointlessly exclusive.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

Signora has been extremely disingenuous. The appeal to authority at ECH was pointlessly exclusive.

THIS.