There's Nothing Special About You (and that's liberating as heck)

[altered]

  Sorry, yeah, it’s easier to get our monkey on wherever convenient and remove the trash later around these parts. You’ll see topics made in 2005 that have ten pages of nasty mean spirited bullshit from 2010 at the end, it’s a feature of the forum.

I personally support splitting it out, though it’s not my call to make afaik.

[minuspace]

I think Nyborj deserves it

[minuspace]

Well, I owe him for 2014, so I have no problem putting the boot in.

Split the thread and we’re even sorted.

[Cramulus]

THERE'S NOTHING SPECIAL ABOUT YOU
AND THAT'S LIBERATING AS HECK

I like what you've done here, kind of an intro to the value of ego-death.

In the Gurdjieff cult thing I'm in, we practice this shift of consciousness that comes with 'non-identification'. The idea is basically to learn to stop being inside of an emotion or thought, to develop something that exists outside of it, which watches your reactions.

Normally, when you experience something, you react automatically. Someone says something that upsets you - did you choose to get upset? No. It's like a chemical reaction. You are inside of that reaction, 'identified' with it.

The trick, however, is to react intentionally. To choose your response, instead of letting it arise mechanically from our predictable human machinery.

My best trick to do this is to visualize a camera in the room with me, like some director is putting this scene into a movie. Try it out right now, visualize what you'd look like if this moment was a scene in a TV show. Maybe I get a precious glimpse of how I appear to others. I get a different perspective on my automatic reactions, because I'm not inside of them.

In this state, I find that Self feels different. It's no longer centered on my body. The Watcher, the imaginary perspective I created to observe myself -- it's not exactly inside of me, in fact, it's partially inside of other people.

Sometimes it feels like the director has created all these relationships and characters... so, in this drama, we feel like friends and enemies and strangers -- but ultimately, these are just roles.. when we're doing shooting, we're all taking off our costumes and going to an afterparty together.



This is what the Sacred Movements are about, too... but I digress.

[Cramulus]

Give me a little space, I'm gonna crawl out on a crazy tree branch. Nyborj, we've just met, so I'll just preface this post with an assertion that I'm not a "Christian". Cause otherwise it may sound like I'm doing this weird evangelical shtick.


in a conspiratorial tone,
like some sketchy guy in an alley, wearing a trenchcoat, a throaty whisper:

"Do you want to know what Christianity is really about? It's not about any of that shit they talk about in church.... let me tell you the real deal..."

"Esoteric Christianity"

Your post --- When people talk about letting Jesus into your heart, that's secretly what it really means. Transcending from small self to big self, from the individual ego to the shared ego. It's about letting something into you, something which can see from a higher perspective, and whatever that is -- it doesn't buy into the illusions we're so obsessed with.

That sense you describe--that selfishness is pointless because it only serves the individual, and the self is actually much bigger than the individual--that's one of the things that the Orthodox church always tries to stamp out. Empathy and community are the path to knowing god--not the priest. Ego-death, identifying with the other, is a true Gnostic experience. It puts us into contact with reality in a way a priest cannot.

Some of the ancient writers hinted at this...  From the Apocryphal Gospel of Thomas:

3. Jesus said, "If your leaders say to you, 'Look, the (Father's) kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the (Father's) kingdom is within you and it is outside you.

When you know yourselves, then you will be known, and you will understand that you are children of the living Father. But if you do not know yourselves, then you live in poverty, and you are the poverty."

Read "To know oneself" as "to know that you are all" & "you are not your fucking khakis"

When you know you're everyone, then you understand that we're all everyone. If you don't know that, you live in the poverty of the small self.

8. And he said, "The person is like a wise fisherman who cast his net into the sea and drew it up from the sea full of little fish. Among them the wise fisherman discovered a fine large fish. He threw all the little fish back into the sea, and easily chose the large fish. Anyone here with two good ears had better listen!"

the small fish are small selves

The big self is what we're after.

15. Jesus said, "When you see one who was not born of woman, fall on your faces and worship. That one is your Father."

all individuals are born of woman

the big self, who contains all these selves, was not born.


okay I could keep going, but hopefully you get the picture and haven't dismissed me as a raving evangelical christian. "Just because I'm crazy doesn't mean I'm wrong."

now I've quoted conspiracy-theory jesus scripture on the forum. I'm sorry, and you are all welcome to pelt me with rocks and dead animals.

[LMNO]

I am a fan of Gnostic Jesus, especially from Mary Magdelene and Judas' POV (the latter because it supports Roger's "Malevolent God" theory.  Thanks for that, Cram

[Doktor Howl]

I am a fan of Gnostic Jesus, especially from Mary Magdelene and Judas' POV (the latter because it supports Roger's "Malevolent God" theory.  Thanks for that, Cram

Also, the gospel of Judas.  All it's missing is light sabers.

[The Johnny]

My personal take is that this discourse is like variants of Mao and Kant, just throwing it out there for now, but i gotta jump to a videocall... idk if i should have waited, but I'll make a longer comment after.

Edit: Idk if the forum is spazzing out or its on my side, but getting correction errors, so ill comment when it stabilizes.

[Frontside Back]

My best trick to do this is to visualize a camera in the room with me, like some director is putting this scene into a movie. Try it out right now, visualize what you'd look like if this moment was a scene in a TV show. Maybe I get a precious glimpse of how I appear to others. I get a different perspective on my automatic reactions, because I'm not inside of them.

I've been studying body image disorders lately. What begins as healthy self awareness can lead to all kinds of problems when you cannot turn it off any more. Having to think all the time how you present yourself to the outside can be debilitating.

I get you are not advocating for that, but do realize the same problem can be approached from multiple directions.

[The Johnny]

If i understood correctly, what "isn't special about us" is the "fact" (assumption id say), that we are all "conscious".

One could speak about it in two principal manners: A) In the sense that it's a rejection of solipsism, to signify that others exist beyond their utility for our own personal uses (which i can agree with).... and B) i dont really think people are as conscious as you would have believe, so "consciousness" is indeed something special.

So despite that i think you are speaking of point A and point B, point B seems like just a passing reference, so I wont get into that.

Now, point A I do not think follows the further points: "that nobody's happiness is more important than others"; "everyone is everyone" and that we should "try to achieve the net good for all".

 It is a very extended myth that egocentric people and psychopaths are incapable of empathy, its not that they dont "recognize the existance of others beyond soulless automatons", its that they do not give a flying fuck... some of these people, not all of course, have great social abilities, understanding other's feelings and desires, and that's how they manage to manipulate others to further their own goals. Perhaps they're synonymous terms, but empathy does not equal symphaty... knowing about someone's emotions or potential suffering does not equal feeling pain when they feel pain.

Which brings me to the next point... Ego boundaries. A fictional or historical figure such as Jesus, lacked a functioning Ego barrier (this Ego barrier theme is ad nauseum handled in Neon Genesis Evangelion, funny thing), therefore he could feel the pain of others as his own, and look where it got him, nailed to a cross like criminal scum. This very much goes in line with what Altered spoke of in the last lines of what he wrote - just because one wants to get rid of one's own Ego barrier, does not mean that others will give you the same benefit.

Now, Frontside spoke of some sort of "psychotic dynamic identification", which sounds similar, but im sticking with my idea of lack of Ego barrier, similar to what Cram was speaking of in the sense of this "Christian shared ego" (which i dont think its truly a "shared ego", but rather a "hijacked ego" which always happens in organized religion).

And finally, along the lines of Dr. Howl, which is a reaction to the subtext of your discourse but not neccesarily the explicit part... fuck you, me and everyone are special, and thinking otherwise is the path to working in a Lithium mine with zero health and safety ordenance and that's exactly the mentality that every totalitarian has. And your "working for the net good of all", fuck that noise too, i think that literally anyone that uses that line is a naive fascist at heart, thinking that they know "what is good for everyone" and with the slightest chance or power given to them they would rush to impose it upon others - to make an omelette you gotta break some eggs, right? As long as its for the greater good.

[Nibor the Priest]

And finally, along the lines of Dr. Howl, which is a reaction to the subtext of your discourse but not neccesarily the explicit part... fuck you, me and everyone are special

I agree. The difference between "no one is special" and "everyone is special" is semantic. Nobody is more special, if you like.

And your "working for the net good of all", fuck that noise too, i think that literally anyone that uses that line is a naive fascist at heart, thinking that they know "what is good for everyone" and with the slightest chance or power given to them they would rush to impose it upon others - to make an omelette you gotta break some eggs, right? As long as its for the greater good.

Oh, I don't think I know what it is. I don't even know what it means. Anyone who claims to know either needs to be treated with absolute suspicion.

(And for the record, I don't usually agree about breaking eggs to make omelettes. Except, like, non-metaphorical omelettes, in which case there's probably a way to do it by boiling an egg in a centrifuge or something.)

If that makes it meaningless for you (or everyone), oh well. I'm not really trying to convince anyone. It works for me.

[minuspace]

My best trick to do this is to visualize a camera in the room with me, like some director is putting this scene into a movie. Try it out right now, visualize what you'd look like if this moment was a scene in a TV show. Maybe I get a precious glimpse of how I appear to others. I get a different perspective on my automatic reactions, because I'm not inside of them.

I've been studying body image disorders lately. What begins as healthy self awareness can lead to all kinds of problems when you cannot turn it off any more. Having to think all the time how you present yourself to the outside can be debilitating.

I get you are not advocating for that, but do realize the same problem can be approached from multiple directions.

I KNOW WHATS GOING ON!!!

[The Johnny]

My best trick to do this is to visualize a camera in the room with me, like some director is putting this scene into a movie. Try it out right now, visualize what you'd look like if this moment was a scene in a TV show. Maybe I get a precious glimpse of how I appear to others. I get a different perspective on my automatic reactions, because I'm not inside of them.

I've been studying body image disorders lately. What begins as healthy self awareness can lead to all kinds of problems when you cannot turn it off any more. Having to think all the time how you present yourself to the outside can be debilitating.

I get you are not advocating for that, but do realize the same problem can be approached from multiple directions.

I KNOW WHATS GOING ON!!!

What a waste of screen space you are, welcome to my ignore list.