Religion vs Spirituality

[Random Probability]

Another peeve of mine.

In art, language is everything.  Since literature is art, I should qualify my language before proceeding.

Religion = An (evil) organized system of control couched in terms of ritual and blind obedience

Spirituality = Staring at one's navel or pineal gland (relative to some quantity of flax, for some unfathomable reason)

For starters, I utterly reject the notion that there is a separation between one's mind and one's body.  This is the path to insanity.  We are all meat.  We are made of meat.  We think with meat.  And we eat meat.  (vegans are also meat as well as a source of vegetables in your daily diet).  Vegans also lie about eating meat, although they are delicious.

Cabbages confuse attacks on all forms of religion as attacks on spirituality.  They are, obviously, quite wrong.  Religion is, to put it bluntly, something someone else invented.  Spirituality is about thinking up your own bullshit.  Either way let us make one thing clear.  There is no magic.  (sorry... mahdgjihque).  Get it?  No such thing.

People who believe in magic are deserving of unrestrained ridicule.  I am continually amazed (though I should be over my shock by now) that seemingly intelligent beings still believe in magic.  Observe the number of people who claim to believe in God.  It is mind boggling.  Granted, they were brainwashed at an early age, but that shouldn't be an excuse once they attain majority.  More to the point, the world is ruled by extremely dangerous people who believe in magical nonsense.

Now, you're probably saying that whether there is a god or not is unknowable, but I say that view point is guilty of precisely the same unthinking dissociation I mentioned in my previous rant.  If you still insist there is a God, then defend your belief in mahdgjique and face the facts.  Everything "supernatural" is magic, pure and simple.

Religion makes this situation even worse.  They don't leave well enough alone.  If it was all about spirituality and becoming a "better you" (whatever the hell that is supposed to mean) then I probably could care less.  As it stands however, Religions attempt to stamp their own impression on their followers' spritual growth.  This is not spirtuality.  It is anathema to life itself.

I have more to say, but I'll leave it for later.

[Lord Daddy Lombrosis]

Uh...


Keep honking, I'm reloading?

[East Coast Hustle]

Another peeve of mine.

In art, language is everything.  Since literature is art, I should qualify my language before proceeding.

Religion = An (evil) organized system of control couched in terms of ritual and blind obedience

Spirituality = Staring at one's navel or pineal gland (relative to some quantity of flax, for some unfathomable reason)

For starters, I utterly reject the notion that there is a separation between one's mind and one's body.  This is the path to insanity.  We are all meat.  We are made of meat.  We think with meat.  And we eat meat.  (vegans are also meat as well as a source of vegetables in your daily diet).  Vegans also lie about eating meat, although they are delicious.

Cabbages confuse attacks on all forms of religion as attacks on spirituality.  They are, obviously, quite wrong.  Religion is, to put it bluntly, something someone else invented.  Spirituality is about thinking up your own bullshit.  Either way let us make one thing clear.  There is no magic.  (sorry... mahdgjihque).  Get it?  No such thing.

People who believe in magic are deserving of unrestrained ridicule.  I am continually amazed (though I should be over my shock by now) that seemingly intelligent beings still believe in magic.  Observe the number of people who claim to believe in God.  It is mind boggling.  Granted, they were brainwashed at an early age, but that shouldn't be an excuse once they attain majority.  More to the point, the world is ruled by extremely dangerous people who believe in magical nonsense.

Now, you're probably saying that whether there is a god or not is unknowable, but I say that view point is guilty of precisely the same unthinking dissociation I mentioned in my previous rant.  If you still insist there is a God, then defend your belief in mahdgjique and face the facts.  Everything "supernatural" is magic, pure and simple.

Religion makes this situation even worse.  They don't leave well enough alone.  If it was all about spirituality and becoming a "better you" (whatever the hell that is supposed to mean) then I probably could care less.  As it stands however, Religions attempt to stamp their own impression on their followers' spritual growth.  This is not spirtuality.  It is anathema to life itself.

I have more to say, but I'll leave it for later.

fucking RAH!

[Shibboleet The Annihilator]

You didn't spell mahdgjihque correctly.

[Zurtok Khan]

Another peeve of mine.

In art, language is everything.  Since literature is art, I should qualify my language before proceeding.

Religion = An (evil) organized system of control couched in terms of ritual and blind obedience

Spirituality = Staring at one's navel or pineal gland (relative to some quantity of flax, for some unfathomable reason)

For starters, I utterly reject the notion that there is a separation between one's mind and one's body.  This is the path to insanity.  We are all meat.  We are made of meat.  We think with meat.  And we eat meat.  (vegans are also meat as well as a source of vegetables in your daily diet).  Vegans also lie about eating meat, although they are delicious.

Cabbages confuse attacks on all forms of religion as attacks on spirituality.  They are, obviously, quite wrong.  Religion is, to put it bluntly, something someone else invented.  Spirituality is about thinking up your own bullshit.  Either way let us make one thing clear.  There is no magic.  (sorry... mahdgjihque).  Get it?  No such thing.

People who believe in magic are deserving of unrestrained ridicule.  I am continually amazed (though I should be over my shock by now) that seemingly intelligent beings still believe in magic.  Observe the number of people who claim to believe in God.  It is mind boggling.  Granted, they were brainwashed at an early age, but that shouldn't be an excuse once they attain majority.  More to the point, the world is ruled by extremely dangerous people who believe in magical nonsense.

Now, you're probably saying that whether there is a god or not is unknowable, but I say that view point is guilty of precisely the same unthinking dissociation I mentioned in my previous rant.  If you still insist there is a God, then defend your belief in mahdgjique and face the facts.  Everything "supernatural" is magic, pure and simple.

Religion makes this situation even worse.  They don't leave well enough alone.  If it was all about spirituality and becoming a "better you" (whatever the hell that is supposed to mean) then I probably could care less.  As it stands however, Religions attempt to stamp their own impression on their followers' spritual growth.  This is not spirtuality.  It is anathema to life itself.

I have more to say, but I'll leave it for later.

I don't think religion is quite as evil as most people make it out to be.  I think religion is the path to spirituality.  Certainly there are parts of religion that are oppressive, but it does not have to be so.  Of course, the problem we are currently encountering is that religion doesn't adapt to modern circumstances fast enough.  Eventually a religion will start to adapt to them at a reasonable pace, and it will get along much nicer with the rest of the world.

That said, there is some supportive evidence that religions which require the most from their members are seeing the highest growth rates (and have the highest regular attendance rates) out of any other religions.  

All in all, I think it comes down to whatever floats your boat.  We're all here (as far as I can tell) because religion isn't really our flavor.  But, there are many people in the world that particular religions work well for.

And, on top of that, in most cases (although, Islam is the exception to this in many ways) the people don't really follow the docterine of their religion the way they profess to.  And, quite frankly, if Jesus were around today preaching, I'd be saying Amen to that, because despite the fact that it's probably not going to happen, it's a nice message.

I don't think magic (however you'd like to spell it) is as bad as you seem to think either.  It's not quite that black and white.  It has often been said that magic is simply the things that science has yet to discover.  Well, that may or may not be true, but I think it provides an interesting way to look at the problem.  After all, how many people do you think schoffed at some of the devices we take for granted now?  I'm not saying that John Edwards talks to dead people (or that we could ever prove that he does or doesn't), but within reason we shouldn't completely blow off some of the things that people do.

And, as I've said before, these people are no more or less dangerous because they happen to believe in whatever it is they believe (after all every atheist I've ever met has a belief in science...).  Just because they have or haven't had religious experiances makes them no more or less dangerous.  They like to play the political game, plain and simple.  They simply find the easiest excuse to move their Knight from G-6 to E-5, and religion offers that excuse in a prepackaged sort of way.

Ehh, I just don't think you hit the nail on the head here.  Religion is simply another tool to be manipulated.  The mythology of it inparticular, but it all has it's uses if we choose to utilize them.

[Scribbly]

I... couldn't possibly disagree with Zurtok more here. Well, for the most part, I'm not going to comment on magic, on the basis that I don't feel I know enough about it or the people that believe in it to make any judgment.

But a couple of statements really stood out to me here.

First

And, as I've said before, these people are no more or less dangerous because they happen to believe in whatever it is they believe (after all every atheist I've ever met has a belief in science...). Just because they have or haven't had religious experiances makes them no more or less dangerous.

Bullshit, your average atheist is NOT likely to support killing people in the name of science, nor are the majority of scientists, religious followers are far more likely to support the idea of killing in the name of (insert religion) than atheists. Okay, not every religion, and not every atheist, but still.

Secondly

Religion is simply another tool to be manipulated. The mythology of it inparticular, but it all has it's uses if we choose to utilize them

Again, wrong, religion at its most fundamental level- with the possible exception of Buddhism though I don't know much about that one- are simply ways for the rulers of the countries at the time to gain control over the masses. Christianity in the dark ages was a prime example of this, where religion was used to justify the hard work and toil of the average peasant from birth to death, promising a reward in the afterlife for their obedience.

Religion is not a tool to be manipulated, religion is a tool which manipulates on behalf of those precious few that wield it, and the stranglehold that the major religions have on the general populace is such that any "modern religion" which could come along and adapt to modern circumstances as you put it, would be crushed, dismissed as a fanatical cult, or otherwise discreditted, it would not take hold. How could it, without genuine 'miracles' with which to sway the people?

Religion and spirituality are two entirely seperate entities, sure, some religions can lead to spirituality, in the same way that some roads can lead to a holiday camp, and some to a prison. But the religions that lead to genuine spirituality are so overwhelmingly in the minority that stating religion leads to spirituality is a statement that is clearly flawed, most religions do not, most religions lead to subservience and thought-regulation, as opposed to Spirtuality.

I am also uncertain as to what you meanwhen you say the problem we are currently encountering, as though it will work itself out. The religions of Judaism, Christianity and Islam have been around for hundreds of years, and each is incredibly rigid. It is true that they have changed slightly over the years, such as Christianity (reluctantly) accepting that women actually -do- have souls, but only slightly, and only so that they may better keep the masses under control- in the above example, to keep women happy and docile.

There will not be a religion that will adapt at a reasonable pace to the modern world, because it simply doesn't suit religion to accept change. Change brings a disruption to the order of things, weakens its authority, and as people accept things like the need for scientific evidence, erodes its most fundamental pillars. If anything, I can see Christianity becoming even more restrictive; with the Intelligent Design fiasco crashing down around it, it is likely to back away from trying to 'prove' the existence of God, and just scream Faith a lot.

I hope that made some kind of sense.

[Triple Zero]

Bullshit, your average atheist is NOT likely to support killing people in the name of science, nor are the majority of scientists, religious followers are far more likely to support the idea of killing in the name of (insert religion) than atheists. Okay, not every religion, and not every atheist, but still.

unless you come up with some kind of actual references for this, i'm just have to kindly tell you i disagree. imo, your average scientist is just as likely to support killing people in the name of whatever as your average religious person, also in the name of whatever (which is not necessarily their deity of choise, but can in any case be any cause).

contrary what scientists like you to believe, people with knowledge (of science) are not in any way more kind, peace-loving or whatever than other people.

they are on average more rational, i can give you that.

you could make a point that irrational people are more likely to support killing people than rational people. but that's a whole different slice of cake cause you have rational and irrational religious people.

the stranglehold that the major religions have on the general populace is such that any "modern religion" which could come along and adapt to modern circumstances as you put it, would be crushed, dismissed as a fanatical cult, or otherwise discreditted, it would not take hold.

myeah, that's memetics working for you just looked up for you the term used for this phenomenon, exotoxic.

Religion and spirituality are two entirely seperate entities, sure, some religions can lead to spirituality, in the same way that some roads can lead to a holiday camp, and some to a prison. But the religions that lead to genuine spirituality are so overwhelmingly in the minority that stating religion leads to spirituality is a statement that is clearly flawed, most religions do not, most religions lead to subservience and thought-regulation, as opposed to Spirtuality.

interesting! i think you are right about this, never really thought of it that way.. it's yet another fact religions are trying (or designed) to hide.

with the possible exception of Buddhism

which is probably one of the reasons why buddhism pretty much refuses to call itself a "religion". OTOH, in the countries where buddhism is practiced as a state-religion, it does in fact have a lot of the negative properties you attribute to religion in general, and indeed fundamentalism occurs. just like christianity and islam have religious laws against killing, so do the religious buddhists.
same, if you study christianity, islam, buddhism, judaism, hinduism, whatever in a spiritual manner, THEN, all these religions are all pretty much okay since they all carry the same basic message which is "be nice upon to eachother".

and as people accept things like the need for scientific evidence, erodes its most fundamental pillars. If anything, I can see Christianity becoming even more restrictive; with the Intelligent Design fiasco crashing down around it

excellent point.

i hope i made some sense as well. apologies for my bad english, but i'm not much of a writer, so when i have to make long sentences in written english they tend to get all curly.

[Scribbly]

Hmm, okay, you got me on the references front-  I really can't think of anything off the top of my head (beyond the nazi scientist counter-reference to my point, and the whole embryo/genetic engineering thing)

However, looking at science/religion distanced from the people, but as a concept that people would be willing to kill for, religion is clearly far more deadly.

Human experimentation is very much a no-no, there are even great questions being raised as to animal testing, but there are many, many situations right now where religion is directly involved in motivating people to kill- such as the various terrorist attacks of late. Clearly there are other motivators as well, but religious fanaticism is definitely a major motivator.

[Triple Zero]

you could perhaps state that, religion provides the goal, for which science provides the means?

[Cain]

Hello, its Mr Smug Atheist here.

I'd just like to point out that the vast majority of deaths attributed to athiests would also have applied under any other religion.  Apart from Nazism (which is religious in nature) and extreme fringe nihilist groups, no atheist theory has sanction of mass killing as part of its underpinning.

In comparison, Holy War is imbedded as a concept in all 3 Judeo-Christian-Muslim faiths, as well as any others.  There is no justification under Communism for Stalin's purges, however there was under Christianity for the Crusades.

Also, when we consider that atheism has only had a century of real political force of any sort, compared to 5000 odd years of human history, the total of dead from the last century, even if you include Nazism etc would not add up that of previous centuries of religious conflict, such as the 30 Years War.

[Lombas]

http://thewaronfaith.com

That's what I think.

[Random Probability]

I'm reverse hijacking my thread here.  Bastards.

I won't get dragged into arguments about genocide and how bad it is.  As a citizen of a country that would not exist without genocide, I am rather ambivalent about the issue.  I'm not here to talk about genocide.

Now, Spirituality with regards to Religion....

I stated before that Spirituality is composed mostly of getting to know one's own self.  Be that through belly button inspection or conversations with one of your glands, it is entirely a matter of inward examination.  Somewhere during this process one experiences "spiritual growth" in the form of enlightenment or some sort of epiphany.  In essence, you make up your own shit.

Religion, on the other hand, is where someone thought really highly of themselves and decided to push their shit on everyone else.  While it can lead to enlightenment and various epiphanies of a sort, the only ones who will benefit from it are those who think precisely as the founder thought.  In the case of the Judeo-Christian-Islamic pardigm, that is some really fucking scary shit.

Point of fact, every one of the Big Three religions were founded by murdering, thieving, rapist, racist bastards.  Moses and his band of merry fuckwits...  40 years in a desert....  fucking bandits.  "God" even told them to murder, rape and pillage.  The Almighty even kicked their asses when they stole animals He told them to ruthlessly slaughter.  Jesus, perhaps to his credit, was more like modern cult leaders.  Preached about hating your family and yourself, give everything to him, do as he said.  What a shitstain.  Mohammed was a violent bandit, no doubt about it.  Sure, he had delusions of righteousness, but so what.  He was scum.

Now is it really any wonder why the people who follow these teaching the closest are supremely fucked up individuals?  I do not think it is merely coincidence.  When one molds their innermost ego to the lingering taint of long dead madmen it only follows that they themselves will go mad.  It is a certainty, to be sure.

I'll go off and rant about "mahdgjihque" in another rant.

[Scribbly]

Religion, on the other hand, is where someone thought really highly of themselves and decided to push their shit on everyone else.

Here here!

[East Coast Hustle]

random Probability wins this thread.

anyone defending religion needs to have their proctologist perform a cranio-rectal extraction.

[Zurtok Khan]

Holy books speak in metaphors on the whole.  That's whats wrong with the fundementalist movement in Christianity (Can't really speak up for Islam here because the Koran is a whole different matter...).  Instead of looking at these stories metaphoricly they take them litterally.

Historically there isn't a single society in the world without religion, except for the few experiments done in the last century or so in Germany and Russia.  In every Hunter-gatherer society there is some form of religous ritual (though, I hesitate to call it religion).

I simply don't think that religion is as bad as you all seem to think it is.  As I said, it is a conventiant justification for the bad things people want to do to each other.  But, Stalin still killed millions of people.  It does not instigate Holy Wars (again, we'll leave Islam out of this...), those are instigated by the people at the top who would find some way to make themselves richer/more powerful no matter what system they had to use for it.

Case in Point:  I think we can all agree that Bush is using religious idealology to further his political agenda and pad his wallet.  Ultimately, is he doing anything different from Pope Urban II?  Actually, I'm not really sure come to think of it, but I'm sure one of you will have an idea about it.

What I'm trying to say is that religion isn't in and of it's self inherently bad.  It is a set of rules and guidelines for how to live your life proposed through a series of myths.  Most (all?) of you don't want to be told what to do.  That's fine, live your life the way you want to.  Religion simply sets up a model for the people that want to follow it.  If any one person were to follow the model put forth by Christianity (say, in the Gospel of Matthew) they'd probably be a fairly nice, albeit very strange, person.

People in power will abuse that power no matter what it is.  

As to spirituality, what I meant is that religion provides some guidelines that point a person with the proper disposition toward spirituality.  That is, it says, "Here is the model of how we think humans should live their lives, you can't achieve this model, because it isn't real, but that's okay."  Religion has the potential to be a catalyst for spirituality, it's hard to get anywhere talking to your glands or belly button if you don't know what sorts of questions you're asking them.

I'm not saying it's a perfect institution in any form, and all religions have done wrong.  They're all probably up to something nefarius right now (but you're wearing your tinfoil hat, right?).  But, that doesn't mean that they are some sort of infectious evil.  Humans do wrong to each other all the time, with or without religion.  I think religion just tends to magnify it because for much of the history of writing (particularly in the west), it was the priest class that held the quill.