Author Topic: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)  (Read 58493 times)

Cain

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Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
« Reply #75 on: May 14, 2007, 01:00:54 pm »
Unless your BIP breaks down the concept of a unitary personality.  Or fingers.
"The thoughts of all men arise from the darkness. If you are the movement of your soul, and the cause of that movement precedes you, then how could you ever call your thoughts your own? How could you be anything other than a slave to the darkness that comes before? Only the Logos allows one to mitigate that slavery. Only knowing the sources of thought and action allows us to own our thoughts and our actions, to throw off the yoke of circumstance."
- R. Scott Bakker, The Darkness That Comes Before

AFK

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Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
« Reply #76 on: May 14, 2007, 01:06:29 pm »
There's always that. 
Cynicism is a blank check for failure.

LMNO, PhD (life continues)

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Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
« Reply #77 on: May 14, 2007, 01:27:55 pm »
Unless your BIP breaks down the concept of a unitary personality.  Or fingers.


That would indicate that your BIP is not digital.










LMNO
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LMNO
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Buy the Chao te Ching, or be doomed forever.

http://www.stonybrook.edu/sb/marburger/index.shtml

"Get offa me, you freaks!  This is not North Korea.  No.  This is America, and I expect to be PAID for that sort of nonsense.  In advance.  No credit...Cash on the barrelhead or GTFO.  I swear to God, there's nothing more annoying than commie perverts who don't understand the intrinsic value of the free market system."

AFK

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Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
« Reply #78 on: May 14, 2007, 01:35:48 pm »
Sleep deprivation?

Oh, and I would've have said:

Unless your BIP breaks down the concept of a unitary personality.  Or fingers.

Well then, I'm stumped.   :?

RWHN,
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Dags

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Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
« Reply #79 on: May 15, 2007, 03:25:54 am »
I think my BIP is cluttered as fuck right now.

- Dags

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Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
« Reply #80 on: May 15, 2007, 05:06:30 am »
I feel that the BIP model doesn't have to push other beliefs out to make  it's place.  It's more of a meta-structure.  You can be a Christian and still think the BIP is a good idea.  It just makes you understand that your Christianity is a major structural element in your prison, and you can change it if you want to, or not.

Here I think is the core of it. The BIP is tied to absolutely nothing but the limits we ourselves place on our minds and lives. Some traps are easily avoidable, others aren't. I can choose to disdain religion, but making to choice to disdain working is a lot tougher. Or insert your own here. The point and utter truth of the BIP is it is self imposed and maintained. We allow some and reject other parts of it, but we are all within the walls by choice.

To me this is the part that makes it inescapable. Not the Con, or The MachineѢ. It's raining like hell right now and I'm nice and cozy inside because I made the choice. The choice to forfeit a part of me to comfort another part of me. Good or bad choice? I alone can make that call.

Perhaps Dags this is why I don't concern myself too hard with conversion, and NEVER with indoctrination. My own awakening came from me by watching, listening and learning. I feel this is where I need to be, and in my mind this is the kind of 'converts' we need. The ones who by their own choice can open their eyes and follow their instincts. If they have to be drug and coerced then it is indeed a weakened society we will be a part of.

I had examples who had were for the most part open, honest, and extremely well informed and intelligent. This was the lure. And no, I'm not stroking any of you, hell, I'm doing the same now in my own way, so it must be. If we force followers, then we have followers. Sheep of a different color. Sheep are sheep, and this is a wolf den.

The Good Reverend Roger

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Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
« Reply #81 on: May 15, 2007, 05:07:21 am »
I feel that the BIP model doesn't have to push other beliefs out to make  it's place.  It's more of a meta-structure.  You can be a Christian and still think the BIP is a good idea.  It just makes you understand that your Christianity is a major structural element in your prison, and you can change it if you want to, or not.

Here I think is the core of it. The BIP is tied to absolutely nothing but the limits we ourselves place on our minds and lives. Some traps are easily avoidable, others aren't. I can choose to disdain religion, but making to choice to disdain working is a lot tougher. Or insert your own here. The point and utter truth of the BIP is it is self imposed and maintained. We allow some and reject other parts of it, but we are all within the walls by choice.

To me this is the part that makes it inescapable. Not the Con, or The MachineѢ. It's raining like hell right now and I'm nice and cozy inside because I made the choice. The choice to forfeit a part of me to comfort another part of me. Good or bad choice? I alone can make that call.

Perhaps Dags this is why I don't concern myself too hard with conversion, and NEVER with indoctrination. My own awakening came from me by watching, listening and learning. I feel this is where I need to be, and in my mind this is the kind of 'converts' we need. The ones who by their own choice can open their eyes and follow their instincts. If they have to be drug and coerced then it is indeed a weakened society we will be a part of.

I had examples who had were for the most part open, honest, and extremely well informed and intelligent. This was the lure. And no, I'm not stroking any of you, hell, I'm doing the same now in my own way, so it must be. If we force followers, then we have followers. Sheep of a different color. Sheep are sheep, and this is a wolf den.

:mittens:
"What can we do to help you stop screaming?"

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Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
« Reply #82 on: May 15, 2007, 11:59:00 am »
Right the fuck on, Hawk.

Nails it in one.
LMNO
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Buy the Chao te Ching, or be doomed forever.

http://www.stonybrook.edu/sb/marburger/index.shtml

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AFK

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Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
« Reply #83 on: May 15, 2007, 01:10:15 pm »
Good show, Hawk.  You're right, conversion and indoctrination would lead us, and the subject down a path or suck and fail.  Folks who will get this and be open to it are already predisposed to these kinds of ideas, but simply aren't privy to resources, literature, and other source material.  They already have the crack of daylight necessary to illuminate their sky.  I think our role is pretty much, "Here you go, enjoy!" 
Cynicism is a blank check for failure.

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Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
« Reply #84 on: May 16, 2007, 11:50:47 pm »
I feel that the BIP model doesn't have to push other beliefs out to make  it's place.  It's more of a meta-structure.  You can be a Christian and still think the BIP is a good idea.  It just makes you understand that your Christianity is a major structural element in your prison, and you can change it if you want to, or not.

Delayed reply on this because it kept becoming too cluttered when trying to explain the why of mentioning christianity. Basically it was meant as an example of where it's giving answers and NOT engaging a persons mental mechanics. It's an old argument about giving answers without supplying the reasoning behind them cropping up I suppose. So one could come to similiar conclusions on their own ie; no coversion,indoctrination, just supplying the argument, reasoning, framework... etcetera.

The link 'unskilled and unaware of it' explains the phenomena in more depth where a person isn't aware of their lack of knowledge in certain domains and neither will they be able to realize it until after that knowledge has somehow found it's way in without being deflected and ignored. Forced awarness perhaps but I dunno. Doubtful because 'that doesn't apply to me', 'your wrong', 'fuck you' or something like that. Persistance of belief won't budge in the face of contradictory evidence and
as per skepdic.com much said in the article about 'true believers'.

So I wasn't trying to say that BIP is necessarily about indoctrination, conversion, intervention or even therapy for the masses. Just to say it's there for some reason or is it? or is it? Rev. What's His Name says it's there to enjoy; which sounds good to me. I did enjoy it and found some good twist and turns within it.

- Dags
« Last Edit: May 17, 2007, 12:14:52 am by Dags »

Dags

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Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
« Reply #85 on: May 17, 2007, 12:15:54 am »
.... in this case of the BIP, the finger is always pointing back at you. 


Reading the BIP again (I think it takes me about 30 or 40 minutes to read) I still didn't understand what LMNO meant by meta-structure or how BIP could apply to me. The first part of it doesn't ring true with me on many things nor does a lot of the rest of it in a 'that's me right there' way? So I didn't see how a person reading was  supposed to incorporate these ideas into their own organization of reality as LMNO said; one can take some parts of it and leave others be.... I just thought in this way it could become too contradictory to accept as valid. Cluttered is all I could think of.... in regards to my BIP. Lots of info, ideas, pieces and parts, half read books, half thunken thoughts and fully read books with lots and lots lost... or something. In regards to me.

I decided to search the web on black iron prison and see what else I could find on Black Iron Prison and it returns results from a Philip K. Dick novel.  Which makes mentions of some things or another about it but here I found a meta-structure possibly? That might correlate with the Black Iron Prison be it coincidental or not. Which describes it in another way adding to that hints of a rise in fascism and the last attempts to thwart it possibly being too far gone now or something.

From: Tim Bouchers Blog / Pop Occulture
http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2005/05/29/the-minimum-security-black-iron-prison/

From a Simpson's episode to an excerpt from a nice piece explaining the Philip K. Dick version with a broken link then goes into explaining some of the gnostic concepts behind the prison. Which AFAIK is the original way PKD interpreted it.

The concept is defined in wikipedia as such; VALIS 6.1
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VALIS#Black_Iron_Prison

Quote
The Black Iron Prison is a concept of an all-pervasive system of social control postulated in the Tractates Cryptica Scriptura, a summary of an unpublished Gnostic exegesis included in VALIS.

Quote
:"Everyone who had ever lived was literally surrounded by the iron walls of the prison; they were all inside it and none of them knew it."


Wade Inganamort has an article on Alex Jones website that delves into the concept of social control and incorporates the concept of the Black Iron Prison into his views. Some of the many links work from this article but hardly all of them.

http://www.prisonplanet.com/analysis_inganamort_121702_subdermal.html

With this I seem to understand the framework better and see how it can be incorporated as that wall of social control bearing down of us all. I can only surmise that many will live and die without looking for it blissfully perhaps but will those leaving the prison yard, ignoring the sign that reads please don't leave, really ruin it for the rest of those inside.

Quote
It's not a prison if you never try the door.

- Dags
« Last Edit: May 17, 2007, 12:27:11 am by Dags »

Dags

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Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
« Reply #86 on: May 17, 2007, 12:23:55 am »
Quote from: Hawk link=topic=11449.msg397470#msg397470
Perhaps Dags this is why I don't concern myself too hard with conversion, and NEVER with indoctrination. My own awakening came from me by watching, listening and learning. I feel this is where I need to be, and in my mind this is the kind of 'converts' we need. The ones who by their own choice can open their eyes and follow their instincts. If they have to be drug and coerced then it is indeed a weakened society we will be a part of.

By reasoning and being intelligent then you'll have an effect on others without necessarily trying to... have an effect on them. I dunno. Just a thought.

I got nothing from me until I learned to look at myself maybe and some kind of metacognition got involved and it's been a pretty wild trip since then. It took others doing what they do regardless of their reasons for doing it... to do that.

- Dags

Cain

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Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
« Reply #87 on: May 17, 2007, 09:09:06 am »
Gotta say I'm glad to have you back Dags.

Been lurking on this topic and I thought you'd bring something interesting to it, if not the whole project.
"The thoughts of all men arise from the darkness. If you are the movement of your soul, and the cause of that movement precedes you, then how could you ever call your thoughts your own? How could you be anything other than a slave to the darkness that comes before? Only the Logos allows one to mitigate that slavery. Only knowing the sources of thought and action allows us to own our thoughts and our actions, to throw off the yoke of circumstance."
- R. Scott Bakker, The Darkness That Comes Before

LMNO, PhD (life continues)

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Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
« Reply #88 on: May 17, 2007, 12:02:27 pm »
Wow.  Cool. Ok, Here we go:

First off, we absolutely stole the phrase from PKD.  However, the way we use it is different from the way he uses it.

Quote
Reading the BIP again (I think it takes me about 30 or 40 minutes to read) I still didn't understand what LMNO meant by meta-structure or how BIP could apply to me. The first part of it doesn't ring true with me on many things nor does a lot of the rest of it in a 'that's me right there' way? So I didn't see how a person reading was  supposed to incorporate these ideas into their own organization of reality as LMNO said; one can take some parts of it and leave others be.... I just thought in this way it could become too contradictory to accept as valid.

By "meta structure", I meant that the BIP metaphor is not about what reality "is", but about how we piece together what we eventually call "reality".  Anything (anything) we use to shape or decipher what our senses are telling us is part of the BIP: Xtianity, Hinduism, Scientology... every thought, every experience you have ever had, every emotion, every conversation, they all have a hand in creating your personal BIP.

Also, what do you consider "the first part"?  There's a lot of different stuff in there.

And what doesn't ring true?


Please note I'm not wanting to do a screaming argument.  It's been a while since I reviewed my peremisis, I'd like to go over it again with you, to see if I missed something.
LMNO
Pope/Wrought Iron Instigator
First Church of Last Exit Before Toll
The Spider Project.

Buy the Chao te Ching, or be doomed forever.

http://www.stonybrook.edu/sb/marburger/index.shtml

"Get offa me, you freaks!  This is not North Korea.  No.  This is America, and I expect to be PAID for that sort of nonsense.  In advance.  No credit...Cash on the barrelhead or GTFO.  I swear to God, there's nothing more annoying than commie perverts who don't understand the intrinsic value of the free market system."

Dags

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Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
« Reply #89 on: May 18, 2007, 11:55:15 pm »
Wow.  Cool. Ok, Here we go:

Like old times and new times at the same time.

Quote
First off, we absolutely stole the phrase from PKD.  However, the way we use it is different from the way he uses it.

I still find his way interesting enough to explore it some more. I am not
familiar with Gnosticism but in the most basic form is that of having
knowledge that others do not possess and possibly cannot possess. The
term brings to mind agnosticism which Im more familiar with as an lack of
knowledge concerning god claims. So god figures in there somewhere but
from a quick look at the wikipedia influences of Gnosticism included folks
such as Crowley, Ginsberg and I was pleased to see Howard Bloom thrown
into the mix as well. That alone tells me there is a great deal of tolerance
and/or lack of dogma involved to elicit the support (if it exist as I havent
looked into that much) from such a diverse minded group of individuals. Not
to mention the lack of cookie-cutter mindedness you may find within other
dogmatic religions. Like I said this is really tentative; If making such a
statement on a Gnostic forum I can imagine I would get some angry
responses with  the cry of the true gnostics' at the likes of Crowley
espousing himself or somehow getting mixed up with having studied and
found his influence with the religion? If Gnosticism is still an active religion. I
dont claim to know. Nor at the time I'm posting this care to know. I like
looking forward to checking it out later on. That's how my BIP rolls.

I think PKDs involvement with it definitely adds some dimension and
depth to the Black Iron Prison in how he arrived at the concept. In fact put
in the same way youve stated it PKD could have stolen the BIP from
Gnosticism. He just gave it a name. The phrase itself is nothing without a
referent or concept behind of it. That was the appeal wasnt it? Even if your
aims are to use BIP for a different purpose than PKD. 

Could BIP be more Gnostic than fictional? God could be watching the use of
his original thought passed down to 1st century religious figures and on to
Crowley and others? Just a thought.(Im not religious btw)

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Humorous Interlude Perhaps: HIP

X: hey! BIP.
Y: whatZ? Beep?
X: BIP. Black Iron Prison
Y: Yeah cool. Black Iron Prison. So what?
X: Lets roll with that name.
Y: Whats it mean?
X: Who cares.. 
Y: Just say its cool then? Right?
X: Yep.
Y: Will anyone get it?
X: Probably not.
Y: Cool.
Z: hey! BIP
Y: Yeah its cool right?
Z: I guess so. Yeah.
A: Whats cool?
Z: BIP!
A: Cool. Its BIP!
A: What is it?
Z: Its cool.
A: Ok
B: BIP?
Y: Black Iron Prison.
A: Cool right?
B: Yeah BIP is the coolest.
B: What is it?
A: Its complicated.
B: Srsly?
A: Its cool.
B: Ok.
C: What are you talking about?
B: I dont know. Its cool.
C: Why is it cool?
B: I have no idea.
C: Why claim its cool then.
B: Wutz a clam?
X: STFU! C !!!
C: What power!

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Quote from: LMNO
Quote from: Dags
Reading the BIP again (I think it takes me about 30 or 40 minutes to read) I still didn't understand what LMNO meant by meta-structure or how BIP could apply to me. The first part of it doesn't ring true with me on many things nor does a lot of the rest of it in a 'that's me right there' way? So I didn't see how a person reading was  supposed to incorporate these ideas into their own organization of reality as LMNO said; one can take some parts of it and leave others be.... I just thought in this way it could become too contradictory to accept as valid.

By "meta structure", I meant that the BIP metaphor is not about what reality "is", but about how we piece together what we eventually call "reality".  Anything (anything) we use to shape or decipher what our senses are telling us is part of the BIP: Xtianity, Hinduism, Scientology... every thought, every experience you have ever had, every emotion, every conversation, they all have a hand in creating your personal BIP.

Can you guess what Im going to say about this? If its everything then
how do you differentiate it from what its not? If you cant make a
distinction then you cant understand it apart from anything else; including
reality. Everything is everything; is a tautology and tells you nothing about
everything. If it feels, acts, and cant be differentiated from reality then it
must be reality or at least be treated as reality; such as standing in front of
the moving train would leaves a bloody mess of what used to be the one
standing in front of the train versus imagining for a while that your really
right in there with Neo battling it out with Agent Smith( the Matrix being an movie also accredited to Gnostic thought.  At least by a wikipedia article for whatever that may be worth.-heh) Ill be looking to various sources to get more in depth and hopefully a more accurate understanding of it as my interest allows.

I also get confused (congratulations btw) in the way you explain BIP as a
meta-structure, framework, then just go ahead and add everything else
and this is your BIP? Why call it your BIP at all? Is it a project that has a
particular meaning or specific purpose or is BIP just whatever anyone just
wants it to be? If BIP is everything and anything that anyone cooks up and
calls it BIP or their BIP then you cant distinguish it from what isnt BIP
absent the phrase. Therefore the concept of BIP becomes meaningless.
There is nothing to contrast it against. No background and no outside of it.
It becomes then too emcompassing to be meaningful and therefore the
mind will reject it in favor of what seems at least to be more meaningful and more valid. Even if it isn't true. In the realm of separating what is real from what is imaginary religion isn't very useful because it's unfalsifiable. Can't be proven to not be true and regardless of how wild the claims may be. Very profound but containing nothing testable; which sounds vaguely familiar in the context of religious claims. So if anyone's reality is validated as being true within the BIP meta-structure (as it were) then basically anything goes!

-----------------------------------------------------------------

ModL. Another HIP Interlude

Hi Im Joe. In my BIP American Idol is everything! Its my Black Iron Prison. I
wish I knew more about whats going on with American Idol to comment on
it intelligently. Best thing about American Idol for me is how I see it as an
almost perfect example of cognitive dissonance at work. You get to see the
contestants and listen to the singing, hear the parents approval, friends
and such alike that have told some folks on there how they ARE the next
A.I. to poop out the shoot at the top of the poops! Reality creeps in and
does its thing... but some are seemingly bulletproof to the judges
NO!!!!'s and STOP!!!'s ....  Randy says Its a no dog... sorry. Absolutely
bloody ridiculous says Simon.. Ghastly! Paula tries to be nice. Thats nice. I
like that show for that certain amount of reality check. Of course they have
some well secret job skills to figure it out but the audience like me doesnt
have to pretend either. I through a few OMG!! America is totally laughing at
you right now!! I say some stuff out loud to well... my tv and the walls of
my huge PRISON! But really. We all have our songs or singing be whatever
it may be... going for an interview for a job, trying to befriend a stranger,
trying to meet a lady for some companionship, we have and/or are
surrounded at times by the Paulas, the Randys and the Simons of the
world. These are my Gods! I know they are there to help me even if its
painful sometimes to be judged. I try to keep in mind how I would hate to
be laughed at so much when doing things I thought I was good at like
that. Im always on camera. Maybe using the toilet and I mess up in there
and miss the toilet. Randys up there going... no dog? Thats just not good
enough man. Simon just slaps his forehead in disgust. Paula gives me a
little encouragement to get my aim. Wow! Right? I mean you can get so
much from American Idol I hope others join my Black Iron Prison. Some
deep thought here now. Just think it over. Can we be aware of how our
singing sounds to the Gods. How can a person know enough to know
when it needs some work? When you need to fire your instructor/ coach!
When you just need to get your money back... or even in some cases... It
might just be APPAULING! Do something else! Or well you get the picture.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Quote from: LMNO
Also, what do you consider "the first part"?  There's a lot of different stuff in
there.

And what doesn't ring true?

Specifically man I dunno. I cant repeat enough how I found the writing to be a great read. Its a whole lot more succinct than I had expected at first glance of the table of contents. I also should mention and this is becoming lengthy so Ill highlight it.

I purposefully didnt read the library and additional works on the main page such so far but I do plan on doing so.

I wanted to read the BIP as I understand it to be disseminated. Without
the benefit of additional works involved in the larger scope of the project?
But like I said I dont want to dissect and comment on the entire BIP as
written. So when I say a lot didnt ring true perhaps Im not the same as
those minded to recognize themselves within it. Im basically a materialist
(philosophically) but Im not a materialist (in regards to consumerism). If Im
not unplugged from the massive herd that is the collective unthinking then
I dont know who is and therefore at least have given more thought to how
I go about speaking out of my nether regions! So just overall it didnt get in
depth enough to engage me. However my mind is fully engaged on a
number of things at the moment LMNO. I suspect you are too. I honestly
am trying to figure out what meaning is given behind the effort here as I
understand it as a collective project: Black Iron Prison.

Quote from: LMNO
Please note I'm not wanting to do a screaming argument.  It's been a while since I reviewed my peremisis, I'd like to go over it again with you, to see if I missed something.

Noted. Im good for some short replies and such I'm just on a writing kick for the moment. So I wrote and maybe covered it all in this one. I think its (..and of course I would I wrote it) all relevant to the subject at hand here in one way or another.

Also some notes of my own then for further consideration. Within my earlier
reply contains what I consider a useful study Unskilled and Unaware of It
others in that post may contain irreligious ideas but I dont mean this to
distract from BIP but to look at the core ideas at play here regarding
existence and reality as well. Statistically speaking the irreligious are the
minority and ideas to question the status quo find themselves dubiously
treading on sacred ground whether they want to or not. So I included links
to explain a position taken of a sort of rational evangelism. The BIP seems
to contain traces of evangelism to me if not overtly in the text
surreptitiously in the appeals to disseminate it.

I've also found epistemological constructivism helpful before and BIP seems
to correlate with some of the ideas found within it; as the active
construction of reality by the perceptions of the mind. Learning isnt passive
nor is how reality appears to us in our interpretations of it. Therefore the
construction isnt passive so a person can realize they are actively engaged
in creating their own realities. Sounds familiar in the concepts of Black Iron
Prison as I understand it from your explanations and from PKD's.

- Dags

« Last Edit: May 19, 2007, 12:04:14 am by Dags »