Wow. Cool. Ok, Here we go:
Like old times and new times at the same time.
First off, we absolutely stole the phrase from PKD. However, the way we use it is different from the way he uses it.
I still find his way interesting enough to explore it some more. I am not
familiar with Gnosticism but in the most basic form is that of having
knowledge that others do not possess and possibly cannot possess. The
term brings to mind agnosticism which I‚Äôm more familiar with as an lack of
knowledge concerning god claims. So god figures in there somewhere but
from a quick look at the wikipedia
influences of Gnosticism included folks
such as Crowley, Ginsberg and I was pleased to see Howard Bloom thrown
into the mix as well. That alone tells me there is a great deal of tolerance
and/or lack of dogma involved to elicit the support (if it exist as I haven‚Äôt
looked into that much) from such a diverse minded group of individuals. Not
to mention the lack of cookie-cutter mindedness you may find within other
dogmatic religions. Like I said this is really tentative; If making such a
statement on a Gnostic forum I can imagine I would get some angry
responses with the cry of the ‚Äòtrue gnostics' at the likes of Crowley
espousing himself or somehow getting mixed up with having studied and
found his influence with the religion? If Gnosticism is still an active religion. I
don‚Äôt claim to know. Nor at the time I'm posting this care to know. I like
looking forward to checking it out later on. That's how my BIP rolls.
I think PKD‚Äôs involvement with it definitely adds some dimension and
depth to the Black Iron Prison in how he arrived at the concept. In fact put
in the same way you‚Äôve stated it PKD could have stolen the BIP from
Gnosticism. He just gave it a name. The phrase itself is nothing without a
referent or concept behind of it. That was the appeal wasn‚Äôt it? Even if your
aims are to use BIP for a different purpose than PKD.
Could BIP be more Gnostic than fictional? God could be watching the use of
his original thought passed down to 1st century religious figures and on to
Crowley and others? Just a thought.(I‚Äôm not religious btw)
----------------------------------------------------------------- Humorous Interlude Perhaps: HIP
X: hey! BIP.
Y: whatZ? Beep?
X: BIP. Black Iron Prison
Y: Yeah cool. Black Iron Prison. So what?
X: Let‚Äôs roll with that name.
Y: What‚Äôs it mean?
X: Who cares..
Y: Just say it‚Äôs cool then? Right?
Y: Will anyone get it?
X: Probably not.
Z: hey! BIP
Y: Yeah it‚Äôs cool right?
Z: I guess so. Yeah.
A: What‚Äôs cool?
A: Cool. It‚Äôs BIP!
A: What is it?
Z: It‚Äôs cool.
Y: Black Iron Prison.
A: Cool right?
B: Yeah BIP is the coolest.
B: What is it?
A: It‚Äôs complicated.
A: It‚Äôs cool.
C: What are you talking about?
B: I don‚Äôt know. It‚Äôs cool.
C: Why is it cool?
B: I have no idea.
C: Why claim it‚Äôs cool then.
B: Wutz a clam?
X: STFU! C !!!
C: What power!
Reading the BIP again (I think it takes me about 30 or 40 minutes to read) I still didn't understand what LMNO meant by meta-structure or how BIP could apply to me. The first part of it doesn't ring true with me on many things nor does a lot of the rest of it in a 'that's me right there' way? So I didn't see how a person reading was supposed to incorporate these ideas into their own organization of reality as LMNO said; one can take some parts of it and leave others be.... I just thought in this way it could become too contradictory to accept as valid.
By "meta structure", I meant that the BIP metaphor is not about what reality "is", but about how we piece together what we eventually call "reality". Anything (anything) we use to shape or decipher what our senses are telling us is part of the BIP: Xtianity, Hinduism, Scientology... every thought, every experience you have ever had, every emotion, every conversation, they all have a hand in creating your personal BIP.
Can you guess what I‚Äôm going to say about this? If it‚Äôs everything then
how do you differentiate it from what it‚Äôs not? If you can‚Äôt make a
distinction then you can‚Äôt understand it apart from anything else; including
reality. Everything is everything; is a tautology and tells you nothing about
everything. If it feels, acts, and can‚Äôt be differentiated from reality then it
must be reality or at least be treated as reality; such as standing in front of
the moving train would leaves a bloody mess of what used to be the one
standing in front of the train versus imagining for a while that your really
right in there with Neo battling it out with Agent Smith( the Matrix being an movie also accredited to Gnostic thought. At least by a wikipedia article for whatever that may be worth.-heh) I‚Äôll be looking to various sources to get more in depth and hopefully a more accurate understanding of it as my interest allows.
I also get confused (congratulations btw) in the way you explain BIP as a
meta-structure, framework, then just go ahead and add everything else
and this is your BIP? Why call it your BIP at all? Is it a project that has a
particular meaning or specific purpose or is BIP just whatever anyone just
wants it to be? If BIP is everything and anything that anyone cooks up and
calls it BIP or ‚Äòtheir BIP‚Äô then you can‚Äôt distinguish it from what isn‚Äôt BIP
absent the phrase. Therefore the concept of BIP becomes meaningless.
There is nothing to contrast it against. No background and no outside of it.
It becomes then too emcompassing to be meaningful and therefore the
mind will reject it in favor of what seems at least to be more meaningful and more valid. Even if it isn't true. In the realm of separating what is real from what is imaginary religion isn't very useful because it's unfalsifiable. Can't be proven to not be true and regardless of how wild the claims may be. Very profound but containing nothing testable; which sounds vaguely familiar in the context of religious claims. So if anyone's reality is validated as being true within the BIP meta-structure (as it were) then basically anything goes!
----------------------------------------------------------------- ModL. Another HIP Interlude
Hi I‚Äôm Joe. In my BIP American Idol is everything! It‚Äôs my Black Iron Prison. I
wish I knew more about what‚Äôs going on with American Idol to comment on
it intelligently. Best thing about American Idol for me is how I see it as an
almost perfect example of cognitive dissonance at work. You get to see the
contestants and listen to the singing, hear the parents approval, friends
and such alike that have told some folks on there how they ARE the next
A.I. to poop out the shoot at the top of the poops! Reality creeps in and
does it‚Äôs thing... but some are seemingly bulletproof to the judges
NO!!!!'s and STOP!!!'s .... Randy says It‚Äôs a no dog... sorry. Absolutely
bloody ridiculous says Simon.. Ghastly! Paula tries to be nice. That‚Äôs nice. I
like that show for that certain amount of reality check. Of course they have
some well secret job skills to figure it out but the audience like me doesn‚Äôt
have to pretend either. I through a few OMG!! America is totally laughing at
you right now!! I say some stuff out loud to well... my tv and the walls of
my huge PRISON! But really. We all have our songs or singing be whatever
it may be... going for an interview for a job, trying to befriend a stranger,
trying to meet a lady for some companionship, we have and/or are
surrounded at times by the Paula‚Äôs, the Randy‚Äôs and the Simon‚Äôs of the
world. These are my Gods! I know they are there to help me even if it‚Äôs
painful sometimes to be judged. I try to keep in mind how I would hate to
be laughed at so much when doing things I thought I was good at like
that. I‚Äôm always on camera. Maybe using the toilet and I mess up in there
and miss the toilet. Randy‚Äôs up there going... no dog? That‚Äôs just not good
enough man. Simon just slaps his forehead in disgust. Paula gives me a
little encouragement to get my aim. Wow! Right? I mean you can get so
much from American Idol I hope others join my Black Iron Prison. Some
deep thought here now. Just think it over. Can we be aware of how our
singing sounds to the Gods. How can a person know enough to know
when it needs some work? When you need to fire your instructor/ coach!
When you just need to get your money back... or even in some cases... It
might just be APPAULING! Do something else! Or well you get the picture.
Also, what do you consider "the first part"? There's a lot of different stuff in
And what doesn't ring true?
Specifically man I dunno. I can‚Äôt repeat enough how I found the writing to be a great read. It‚Äôs a whole lot more succinct than I had expected at first glance of the table of contents. I also should mention and this is becoming lengthy so I‚Äôll highlight it.I purposefully didn‚Äôt read the library and additional works on the main page such so far but I do plan on doing so.
I wanted to read the BIP as I understand it to be disseminated. Without
the benefit of additional works involved in the ¬ø larger scope of the project?
But like I said I don‚Äôt want to dissect and comment on the entire BIP as
written. So when I say a lot didn‚Äôt ring true perhaps I‚Äôm not the same as
those minded to recognize themselves within it. I‚Äôm basically a materialist
(philosophically) but I‚Äôm not a materialist (in regards to consumerism). If I‚Äôm
not unplugged from the massive herd that is the collective unthinking then
I don‚Äôt know who is and therefore at least have given more thought to how
I go about speaking out of my nether regions! So just overall it didn‚Äôt get in
depth enough to engage me. However my mind is fully engaged on a
number of things at the moment LMNO. I suspect you are too. I honestly
am trying to figure out what meaning is given behind the effort here as I
understand it as a collective project: Black Iron Prison.
Please note I'm not wanting to do a screaming argument. It's been a while since I reviewed my peremisis, I'd like to go over it again with you, to see if I missed something.
Noted. I‚Äôm good for some short replies and such I'm just on a writing kick for the moment. So I wrote and maybe covered it all in this one. I think it‚Äôs (..and of course I would I wrote it) all relevant to the subject at hand here in one way or another.
Also some notes of my own then for further consideration. Within my earlier
reply contains what I consider a useful study ‚ÄòUnskilled and Unaware of It‚Äô
others in that post may contain irreligious ideas but I don‚Äôt mean this to
distract from BIP but to look at the core ideas at play here regarding
existence and reality as well. Statistically speaking the irreligious are the
minority and ideas to question the status quo find themselves dubiously
treading on sacred ground whether they want to or not. So I included links
to explain a position taken of a sort of rational evangelism. The BIP seems
to contain traces of evangelism to me if not overtly in the text
surreptitiously in the appeals to disseminate it.
I've also found epistemological constructivism helpful before and BIP seems
to correlate with some of the ideas found within it; as the active
construction of reality by the perceptions of the mind. Learning isn‚Äôt passive
nor is how reality appears to us in our interpretations of it. Therefore the
construction isn‚Äôt passive so a person can realize they are actively engaged
in creating their own realities. Sounds familiar in the concepts of Black Iron
Prison as I understand it from your explanations and from PKD's.