Author Topic: Fuck you, my mom died from improper arguing!  (Read 4550 times)

LMNO, PhD (life continues)

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Fuck you, my mom died from improper arguing!
« on: September 12, 2012, 06:52:06 pm »
In light of several discussions that got out of hand, I'm pretty much just going to cut and paste this entire blog post:

http://lesswrong.com/lw/85h/better_disagreement/

_________________________________________________ _________________________

Now that most communication is remote rather than face-to-face, people are comfortable disagreeing more often. How, then, can we disagree well? If the goal is intellectual progress, those who disagree should aim not for name-calling but for honest counterargument.

To be more specific, we might use a disagreement hierarchy. Below is the hierarchy proposed by Paul Graham (with DH7 added by Black Belt Bayesian).

 

DH0: Name-Calling. The lowest form of disagreement, this ranges from "u r fag!!!" to "He’s just a troll" to "The author is a self-important dilettante."

DH1: Ad Hominem. An ad hominem ('against the man') argument won’t refute the original claim, but it might at least be relevant. If a senator says we should raise the salary of senators, you might reply: "Of course he’d say that; he’s a senator." That might be relevant, but it doesn’t refute the original claim: "If there’s something wrong with the senator’s argument, you should say what it is; and if there isn’t, what difference does it make that he’s a senator?"

DH2: Responding to Tone. At this level we actually respond to the writing rather than the writer, but we're responding to tone rather than substance. For example: "It’s terrible how flippantly the author dimisses theology."

DH3: Contradiction. Graham writes: "In this stage we finally get responses to what was said, rather than how or by whom. The lowest form of response to an argument is simply to state the opposing case, with little or no supporting evidence." For example: "It’s terrible how flippantly the author dismisses theology. Theology is a legitimate inquiry into truth."

DH4: Counterargument. Finally, a form of disagreement that might persuade! Counterargument is "contradiction plus reasoning and/or evidence." Still, counterargument is often directed at a minor point, or turns out to be an example of two people talking past each other, as in the parable about a tree falling in the forest.

DH5: Refutation. In refutation, you quote (or paraphrase) a precise claim or argument by the author and explain why the claim is false, or why the argument doesn’t work. With refutation, you're sure to engage exactly what the author said, and offer a direct counterargument with evidence and reason.

DH6: Refuting the Central Point. Graham writes: "The force of a refutation depends on what you refute. The most powerful form of disagreement is to refute someone’s central point." A refutation of the central point may look like this: "The author’s central point appears to be X. For example, he writes 'blah blah blah.' He also writes 'blah blah.' But this is wrong, because (1) argument one, (2) argument two, and (3) argument three."

DH7: Improve the Argument, then Refute Its Central Point. Black Belt Bayesian writes: "If you’re interested in being on the right side of disputes, you will refute your opponents' arguments. But if you're interested in producing truth, you will fix your opponents' arguments for them. To win, you must fight not only the creature you encounter; you [also] must fight the most horrible thing that can be constructed from its corpse."
 

Having names for biases and fallacies can help us notice and correct them, and having labels for different kinds of disagreement can help us zoom in on the parts of a disagreement that matter.

_________________________________________________ ____________


This won't fix what's already been broken, and this probably won't stop all the flare-ups we have, but at least we have some sort of framework when things start getting out of hand.
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The Good Reverend Roger

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Re: Fuck you, my mom died from improper arguing!
« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2012, 06:53:36 pm »
This is awesome.
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Re: Fuck you, my mom died from improper arguing!
« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2012, 06:58:12 pm »
If my introduction isn't clear enough, I didn't write it.  But Less Wrong usually makes me wish I had written it.
LMNO
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First Church of Last Exit Before Toll
The Spider Project.

Buy the Chao te Ching, or be doomed forever.

http://www.stonybrook.edu/sb/marburger/index.shtml

"Get offa me, you freaks!  This is not North Korea.  No.  This is America, and I expect to be PAID for that sort of nonsense.  In advance.  No credit...Cash on the barrelhead or GTFO.  I swear to God, there's nothing more annoying than commie perverts who don't understand the intrinsic value of the free market system."

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Re: Fuck you, my mom died from improper arguing!
« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2012, 07:05:20 pm »
If my introduction isn't clear enough, I didn't write it.  But Less Wrong usually makes me wish I had written it.

Less Wrong is AMAZING at all times.

I have C&P'd that for further reminders.
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Re: Fuck you, my mom died from improper arguing!
« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2012, 07:15:24 pm »
Thanks for this, LMNO.

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Re: Fuck you, my mom died from improper arguing!
« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2012, 07:32:24 pm »
Haha! Bookmarked for the next time I'm accused of being subhuman for having the audacity to not agree with some dumbfuck logical fallacy :evil:

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Re: Fuck you, my mom died from improper arguing!
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2012, 08:50:13 am »
Don't forget, however, that all of those are legitimate tactics for 'erisian debate'  :lulz:
- I don't see race. I just see cars going around in a circle.

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Re: Fuck you, my mom died from improper arguing!
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2012, 08:56:48 am »
Paul Graham rocks. I have never regretting starting to read an essay of his, and they can be long and go on all kinds of tangents.
There's a graphical representation (of Graham's original version, without level 7), which might be a good emoticon. :lulz:
Unless stated otherwise, feel free to copy or reproduce any text I post anywhere and any way you like. I will never throw a hissy-fit over it, promise.

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Re: Fuck you, my mom died from improper arguing!
« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2012, 09:28:25 am »
Don't forget, however, that all of those are legitimate mandatory tactics for 'erisian debate'  :lulz:

 :lulz:
Ass-Kicking & Foot-Stomping Ancient Master of SHIT FUCK FUCK FUCK
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"And National Geographic got interested because National Geographic has the theory that the last century, discovery was basically finding things, and in this century, discovery is basically making things."-- Stewart Brand

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Re: Fuck you, my mom died from improper arguing!
« Reply #9 on: September 13, 2012, 10:39:26 am »
If my introduction isn't clear enough, I didn't write it.  But Less Wrong usually makes me wish I had written it.

Less Wrong is AMAZING at all times.

This is the correct motorcycle.

I'm glad everyone is starting to see why myself and Kai and LMNO read the place obsessively.

Incidentally, in many ways DH7 is the Ultimate Troll, especially if you do it well enough to cause cognitive dissonance in the person you are arguing with, and cause them to disagree with their former comrades.
"The thoughts of all men arise from the darkness. If you are the movement of your soul, and the cause of that movement precedes you, then how could you ever call your thoughts your own? How could you be anything other than a slave to the darkness that comes before? Only the Logos allows one to mitigate that slavery. Only knowing the sources of thought and action allows us to own our thoughts and our actions, to throw off the yoke of circumstance."
- R. Scott Bakker, The Darkness That Comes Before

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Re: Fuck you, my mom died from improper arguing!
« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2012, 01:18:11 pm »
If my introduction isn't clear enough, I didn't write it.  But Less Wrong usually makes me wish I had written it.

Less Wrong is AMAZING at all times.

This is the correct motorcycle.

I'm glad everyone is starting to see why myself and Kai and LMNO read the place obsessively.

Incidentally, in many ways DH7 is the Ultimate Troll, especially if you do it well enough to cause cognitive dissonance in the person you are arguing with, and cause them to disagree with their former comrades.

Do you mean like some sort of conversion experience, but one based on irrefutable logic instead of intricate bullshit?
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Life can be seen as a game with no reset button, no extra lives, and if the power goes out there is no restarting.  If that's all you see life as you are not long for this world, and never will get it.

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Re: Fuck you, my mom died from improper arguing!
« Reply #11 on: September 13, 2012, 01:22:27 pm »
Yes.  They either accept the criticisms, in which case you win, or they suffer from massive cognitive dissonance and spazz out...in which case, you win.

Win-win scenarios are best scenarios.
"The thoughts of all men arise from the darkness. If you are the movement of your soul, and the cause of that movement precedes you, then how could you ever call your thoughts your own? How could you be anything other than a slave to the darkness that comes before? Only the Logos allows one to mitigate that slavery. Only knowing the sources of thought and action allows us to own our thoughts and our actions, to throw off the yoke of circumstance."
- R. Scott Bakker, The Darkness That Comes Before

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Re: Fuck you, my mom died from improper arguing!
« Reply #12 on: September 13, 2012, 01:39:35 pm »
Agreed sir!  :lol:
You can't get out backward.  You have to go forward to go back.. better press on! - Willie Wonka, PBUH

Life can be seen as a game with no reset button, no extra lives, and if the power goes out there is no restarting.  If that's all you see life as you are not long for this world, and never will get it.

"Ayn Rand never swung a hammer in her life and had serious dominance issues" - The Fountainhead

551 characters in my signature to go! Oh Joy!

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Re: Fuck you, my mom died from improper arguing!
« Reply #13 on: September 13, 2012, 02:56:36 pm »
Wait ... hold on a minute ... YOU FUCKERS HAVE BEEN DOING THIS TO ME FOR THE LAST FIVE YEARS  :argh!:
Ass-Kicking & Foot-Stomping Ancient Master of SHIT FUCK FUCK FUCK
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"And National Geographic got interested because National Geographic has the theory that the last century, discovery was basically finding things, and in this century, discovery is basically making things."-- Stewart Brand

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Re: Fuck you, my mom died from improper arguing!
« Reply #14 on: September 13, 2012, 05:13:23 pm »
Can you give an example of dh7? All the other ones have them.
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