Author Topic: Fuck you, my mom died from improper arguing!  (Read 4000 times)

LMNO, PhD (life continues)

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Fuck you, my mom died from improper arguing!
« on: September 12, 2012, 06:52:06 pm »
In light of several discussions that got out of hand, I'm pretty much just going to cut and paste this entire blog post:

http://lesswrong.com/lw/85h/better_disagreement/

_________________________________________________ _________________________

Now that most communication is remote rather than face-to-face, people are comfortable disagreeing more often. How, then, can we disagree well? If the goal is intellectual progress, those who disagree should aim not for name-calling but for honest counterargument.

To be more specific, we might use a disagreement hierarchy. Below is the hierarchy proposed by Paul Graham (with DH7 added by Black Belt Bayesian).

 

DH0: Name-Calling. The lowest form of disagreement, this ranges from "u r fag!!!" to "Heís just a troll" to "The author is a self-important dilettante."

DH1: Ad Hominem. An ad hominem ('against the man') argument wonít refute the original claim, but it might at least be relevant. If a senator says we should raise the salary of senators, you might reply: "Of course heíd say that; heís a senator." That might be relevant, but it doesnít refute the original claim: "If thereís something wrong with the senatorís argument, you should say what it is; and if there isnít, what difference does it make that heís a senator?"

DH2: Responding to Tone. At this level we actually respond to the writing rather than the writer, but we're responding to tone rather than substance. For example: "Itís terrible how flippantly the author dimisses theology."

DH3: Contradiction. Graham writes: "In this stage we finally get responses to what was said, rather than how or by whom. The lowest form of response to an argument is simply to state the opposing case, with little or no supporting evidence." For example: "Itís terrible how flippantly the author dismisses theology. Theology is a legitimate inquiry into truth."

DH4: Counterargument. Finally, a form of disagreement that might persuade! Counterargument is "contradiction plus reasoning and/or evidence." Still, counterargument is often directed at a minor point, or turns out to be an example of two people talking past each other, as in the parable about a tree falling in the forest.

DH5: Refutation. In refutation, you quote (or paraphrase) a precise claim or argument by the author and explain why the claim is false, or why the argument doesnít work. With refutation, you're sure to engage exactly what the author said, and offer a direct counterargument with evidence and reason.

DH6: Refuting the Central Point. Graham writes: "The force of a refutation depends on what you refute. The most powerful form of disagreement is to refute someoneís central point." A refutation of the central point may look like this: "The authorís central point appears to be X. For example, he writes 'blah blah blah.' He also writes 'blah blah.' But this is wrong, because (1) argument one, (2) argument two, and (3) argument three."

DH7: Improve the Argument, then Refute Its Central Point. Black Belt Bayesian writes: "If youíre interested in being on the right side of disputes, you will refute your opponents' arguments. But if you're interested in producing truth, you will fix your opponents' arguments for them. To win, you must fight not only the creature you encounter; you [also] must fight the most horrible thing that can be constructed from its corpse."
 

Having names for biases and fallacies can help us notice and correct them, and having labels for different kinds of disagreement can help us zoom in on the parts of a disagreement that matter.

_________________________________________________ ____________


This won't fix what's already been broken, and this probably won't stop all the flare-ups we have, but at least we have some sort of framework when things start getting out of hand.
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The Good Reverend Roger

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Re: Fuck you, my mom died from improper arguing!
« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2012, 06:53:36 pm »
This is awesome.
"The illusion of freedom will continue as long as it's profitable to continue the illusion. At the point where the illusion becomes too expensive to maintain, they will just take down the scenery, they will pull back the curtains, they will move the tables and chairs out of the way, and you will see the brick wall at the back of the theatre."
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LMNO, PhD (life continues)

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Re: Fuck you, my mom died from improper arguing!
« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2012, 06:58:12 pm »
If my introduction isn't clear enough, I didn't write it.  But Less Wrong usually makes me wish I had written it.
LMNO
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The Spider Project.

Buy the Chao te Ching, or be doomed forever.

http://www.stonybrook.edu/sb/marburger/index.shtml

"Get offa me, you freaks!  This is not North Korea.  No.  This is America, and I expect to be PAID for that sort of nonsense.  In advance.  No credit...Cash on the barrelhead or GTFO.  I swear to God, there's nothing more annoying than commie perverts who don't understand the intrinsic value of the free market system."

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Re: Fuck you, my mom died from improper arguing!
« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2012, 07:05:20 pm »
If my introduction isn't clear enough, I didn't write it.  But Less Wrong usually makes me wish I had written it.

Less Wrong is AMAZING at all times.

I have C&P'd that for further reminders.
"The illusion of freedom will continue as long as it's profitable to continue the illusion. At the point where the illusion becomes too expensive to maintain, they will just take down the scenery, they will pull back the curtains, they will move the tables and chairs out of the way, and you will see the brick wall at the back of the theatre."
- Frank Zappa

Bu☆ns

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Re: Fuck you, my mom died from improper arguing!
« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2012, 07:15:24 pm »
Thanks for this, LMNO.

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Re: Fuck you, my mom died from improper arguing!
« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2012, 07:32:24 pm »
Haha! Bookmarked for the next time I'm accused of being subhuman for having the audacity to not agree with some dumbfuck logical fallacy :evil:

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Re: Fuck you, my mom died from improper arguing!
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2012, 08:50:13 am »
Don't forget, however, that all of those are legitimate tactics for 'erisian debate'  :lulz:
- I don't see race. I just see cars going around in a circle.

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Re: Fuck you, my mom died from improper arguing!
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2012, 08:56:48 am »
Paul Graham rocks. I have never regretting starting to read an essay of his, and they can be long and go on all kinds of tangents.
There's a graphical representation (of Graham's original version, without level 7), which might be a good emoticon. :lulz:
Unless stated otherwise, feel free to copy or reproduce any text I post anywhere and any way you like. I will never throw a hissy-fit over it, promise.

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Re: Fuck you, my mom died from improper arguing!
« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2012, 09:28:25 am »
Don't forget, however, that all of those are legitimate mandatory tactics for 'erisian debate'  :lulz:

 :lulz:
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Re: Fuck you, my mom died from improper arguing!
« Reply #9 on: September 13, 2012, 10:39:26 am »
If my introduction isn't clear enough, I didn't write it.  But Less Wrong usually makes me wish I had written it.

Less Wrong is AMAZING at all times.

This is the correct motorcycle.

I'm glad everyone is starting to see why myself and Kai and LMNO read the place obsessively.

Incidentally, in many ways DH7 is the Ultimate Troll, especially if you do it well enough to cause cognitive dissonance in the person you are arguing with, and cause them to disagree with their former comrades.

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Re: Fuck you, my mom died from improper arguing!
« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2012, 01:18:11 pm »
If my introduction isn't clear enough, I didn't write it.  But Less Wrong usually makes me wish I had written it.

Less Wrong is AMAZING at all times.

This is the correct motorcycle.

I'm glad everyone is starting to see why myself and Kai and LMNO read the place obsessively.

Incidentally, in many ways DH7 is the Ultimate Troll, especially if you do it well enough to cause cognitive dissonance in the person you are arguing with, and cause them to disagree with their former comrades.

Do you mean like some sort of conversion experience, but one based on irrefutable logic instead of intricate bullshit?
You can't get out backward.  You have to go forward to go back.. better press on! - Willie Wonka, PBUH

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Re: Fuck you, my mom died from improper arguing!
« Reply #11 on: September 13, 2012, 01:22:27 pm »
Yes.  They either accept the criticisms, in which case you win, or they suffer from massive cognitive dissonance and spazz out...in which case, you win.

Win-win scenarios are best scenarios.

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Re: Fuck you, my mom died from improper arguing!
« Reply #12 on: September 13, 2012, 01:39:35 pm »
Agreed sir!  :lol:
You can't get out backward.  You have to go forward to go back.. better press on! - Willie Wonka, PBUH

Life can be seen as a game with no reset button, no extra lives, and if the power goes out there is no restarting.  If that's all you see life as you are not long for this world, and never will get it.

"Ayn Rand never swung a hammer in her life and had serious dominance issues" - The Fountainhead

551 characters in my signature to go! Oh Joy!

P3nT4gR4m

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Re: Fuck you, my mom died from improper arguing!
« Reply #13 on: September 13, 2012, 02:56:36 pm »
Wait ... hold on a minute ... YOU FUCKERS HAVE BEEN DOING THIS TO ME FOR THE LAST FIVE YEARS  :argh!:
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Re: Fuck you, my mom died from improper arguing!
« Reply #14 on: September 13, 2012, 05:13:23 pm »
Can you give an example of dh7? All the other ones have them.
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