EEG, BCI, and some of the horrible horrible potential uses.

[McGrupp]

I've been thinking a lot about BCI and decided to look a bit more into EEG stuff. I don't actually work with EEG waves but I do work next to an EEG lab and pestered a bunch of people on my lunch break.

The good news is that they totally can't read our thoughts. Not even close. The brainwaves that EEGs can pick up are very broad and really just give a general idea of brain activity. It can tell if you're asleep, awake, alert, relaxed, or deeply relaxed based on the frequency of brainwaves. I'm totally oversimplifying and there's lots of other stuff but this is basically the nuts and bolts of what EEGs are picking up:


Companies and the media are always real quick to use words like mind reading and make claims that it can read your emotions or see your dreams but its basically just pattern recognition. They will ask you to think about something sad, pick up the readings, and then later when the program sees similar patterns it assumes you are sad. This sort of thing is iffy in a controlled research environment and tends to not work at all out of one. So, while amazing (and totally useful for a variety of medical stuff) it's not quite as amazing as actually reading thoughts although Darpa is trying to push the boundaries.

http://www.digitaltrends.com/cool-tech/this-is-your-brain-on-silicon/

Neurofeedback is another application that is still in its infancy. Even in the EEG lab next door to where I work people can't seem to agree whether it works or not. I keep looking at scholarly articles and it seems that the answer is a resounding 'Maybe' One thing they do agree (as much as doctors can anyway) is that it is possible to alter your brainwaves and this has been studies many times with monks and meditation.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A43006-2005Jan2.html

Neurofeedback in the medical settings mostly focuses on an alternative to drugs for ADHD. In ADHD there tends to be an abundance of theta waves and less beta waves. In theory by using biofeedback the patient can learn to control these waves and learn to increase their focus. Some doctors think this works, other doctors think it doesn't, and there is an alarming amount of absolute crazy people who think neurofeedback can cure everything and that it can give us superpowers. Which leads me to horrible use number 1. Oh and there is some good data that about 1 percent or so of people who use neurofeedback go insane so.......there's that too.

1) Changing the brain:  So we know we can change the brain, but we aren't certain what it will do. For example an abundance of Theta waves tends to be present in ADHD but we also know that it is associated with creative activities such as art. The potential to 'cure' the next Picasso is certainly there. Even more scary is to think about it being forced upon mental patients to 'correct' irregularities. Also there are people who claim they can utilize neurofeedback to achieve a state of bliss and ecstasy and/or hallucinate without drugs, which kinda sounds neat but can also go wrong in a wide variety of as yet unknown ways.

2) Brain Profiling: There are some researchers that believe that EEG will eventually be able to identify 'deviant behavior' This could lead to people incarcerated or denied jobs due primarily to their brainwaves. "I'm sorry, but Wal-Mart can't hire you right now. You exhibit too many theta waves. Perhaps you can check yourself into a reconditioning center and apply again next year."

3)Mind Reading and Privacy: Currently they can't read minds but that doesn't mean they aren't trying (Actually in the US I'm reasonably certain they never stopped). One implication is that even assuming your BCI is under your own control that hackers could create spyware that attempts to read your brainwaves. Currently not a whole lot they can do with it, but its a scary thought. A short article about the possibility: http://gizmodo.com/5938279/researchers-are-trying-to-hack-your-brain

4)Marketing: While reading emotions is still extremely unreliable and murky there are possibilities for companies to customize products depending on EEG readings. A benign form would be a program that links with pandora radio or itunes and selects music based on algorithms of previous recordings. A more monstrous form would be a movie theater full of people wearing headsets that gives information about what people find funny, scary, or endearing. As if entertainment hasn't been homogenized enough. I'd like to think that humans wouldn't volunarily wear a 'squid rig' in order to give corporations their brain data but.......aw, who am I kidding. They'll line up for the chance.

5)Mind control and interrogation: If brainwaves can change, what happens if it gets a pulse that attempts to forcibly change the waves. I have to admit I know less about this since most of my job is picking up waveforms rather than giving them. However there is evidence that it might be possible. Since 1839 there has been evidence that things such as binaural beats can affect the brain. This and similar techniques were used in attempts to induce lucid dreaming. The potential is certainly there for mind alteration as well as advanced interrogation techniques.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binaural_beats

6)Neurotheology: This actually isn't new and the field ranges from the somewhat scientific scan of chanting monks brains. To things like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_helmet. Yes, that is what it is called. The God Helmet. As crazy as it sounds there just might be something to it. However, as I said before there are a whole bunch of seemingly unhinged crackpots that are involved in pushing the limits of BCI. This field may produce good things or it could produce some really really messed up fundamentalism. Here is a long article if anyone wants to find out more:  http://www.npr.org/2010/12/15/132078267/neurotheology-where-religion-and-science-collide

For more info on ethical considerations I would suggest this short scholarly article here: https://landing.athabascau.ca/file/download/110427

I'm sure there is more that I haven't thought about and I'm sure I both glossed over much of the finer points of EEG (as well as totally not being an expert in the field) but BCI seems to be as horrifying as it is amazing. Still, the toothpaste isn't going back in the tube so whatever the future holds we're going to have to deal with it. There is massive potential to improve the quality of human life but also the potential to create horrible horrible dystopias.

Currently around 95 percent of the research into BCIs is in the medical prosthesis field. It can make robot arms work. It can allow paralyzed people to communicate. It can do some really really good beneficial things for folks.

After all, what can possibly go wrong with prosthetic limbs?

[Doktor Howl]

Reminds me of the "corporate personalities" issued to people in Warren Ellis' Ocean.

[McGrupp]

I'm convinced that Warren Ellis is a time traveler from the future. I haven't read Ocean. I'm going to the comic book store today I'll definitely look for it.

[Doktor Howl]

I'm convinced that Warren Ellis is a time traveler from the future. I haven't read Ocean. I'm going to the comic book store today I'll definitely look for it.

So is he.

"My life, since writing Transmetropolitan, has been a litany of horror.  Everything I wrote is coming true, even the stupid genetically-engineered animals."

[Cain]

Some of this has crossover with the stuff I am (and will be continuing) to post in the Sinister Forces thread.

US intelligence has had a longstanding fascination with brain science and the horrible uses it can be put towards.  Anyone who doubts that can just look up Ewen Cameron and see what resulted of the "psychic driving" experiments.

Typically, intelligence interests have been threefold when it comes to the science of the mind:

1) interrogation.  How can we get people we are debriefing, whether agents or enemy spies, to tell the truth?
2) "perfect" spies.  How can we use the science of the mind to turn someone into the perfect spy, taking on one persona and shedding it when necessary?  Can we also cause the persona to forget relevant information?
3) "perfect" assassins.  Can we make someone reliably kill someone else, simply by being instructed to do so?

Those seem to be the major preoccupations of the intelligence community in decades gone by.

[Doktor Howl]

Some of this has crossover with the stuff I am (and will be continuing) to post in the Sinister Forces thread.

US intelligence has had a longstanding fascination with brain science and the horrible uses it can be put towards.  Anyone who doubts that can just look up Ewen Cameron and see what resulted of the "psychic driving" experiments.

Typically, intelligence interests have been threefold when it comes to the science of the mind:

1) interrogation.  How can we get people we are debriefing, whether agents or enemy spies, to tell the truth?
2) "perfect" spies.  How can we use the science of the mind to turn someone into the perfect spy, taking on one persona and shedding it when necessary?  Can we also cause the persona to forget relevant information?
3) "perfect" assassins.  Can we make someone reliably kill someone else, simply by being instructed to do so?

Those seem to be the major preoccupations of the intelligence community in decades gone by.

Also:  Fucking people up just because we can.

Thing is, that mind control shit DOESN'T WORK FOR SHIT.  Just hire some thugs and get it done.

[Cain]

Problem is, the Mafia blabbed, and cried, and plea-bargained all the way through the court system.

They wanted people who couldn't tell stories because they literally couldn't remember being instructed to do anything, and would testify to such, even under extreme torture, drugging and hypnosis.

Also, while their success rate was horrifically low, I wouldn't be so sure there weren't some "success" stories, for a given value of success.  But I'll save that for the Sinister Forces thread.

[The Johnny]

I really don't trust the cognitive-behaviourism alliance for mental health purposes, BUT i do almost hold it as fact that, given enough time, resources and no ethical scruples, you can make ANYONE do ANYTHING.

Come to think of it, a well trained psycho-analyst with these tools could make "wonders".

[Left]

So, one could learn to turn A.D.D on and off?
Hmm.
Interesting.
Thinking that meditation's cheaper.
Possibly adderall would be easier, but nobody wants to prescribe me speed, curse them.

[McGrupp]

So, one could learn to turn A.D.D on and off?
Hmm.
Interesting.
Thinking that meditation's cheaper.
Possibly adderall would be easier, but nobody wants to prescribe me speed, curse them.

That's the idea. Neurofeedback for ADD is pretty much computer assisted meditation as I understand it.

Getting meds for ADD is quite a headache. Lots of hoops to jump through. Ask your docs about Vyvvanse. Sometimes they seem more willing to prescribe it than ritalin or adderall. It's done wonders for me and it doesn't make you feel speedy or jittery. Also I think its more difficult to abuse which is why docs might be more amenable to prescribing it.

Some of this has crossover with the stuff I am (and will be continuing) to post in the Sinister Forces thread.

US intelligence has had a longstanding fascination with brain science and the horrible uses it can be put towards.  Anyone who doubts that can just look up Ewen Cameron and see what resulted of the "psychic driving" experiments.

Typically, intelligence interests have been threefold when it comes to the science of the mind:

1) interrogation.  How can we get people we are debriefing, whether agents or enemy spies, to tell the truth?
2) "perfect" spies.  How can we use the science of the mind to turn someone into the perfect spy, taking on one persona and shedding it when necessary?  Can we also cause the persona to forget relevant information?
3) "perfect" assassins.  Can we make someone reliably kill someone else, simply by being instructed to do so?

Those seem to be the major preoccupations of the intelligence community in decades gone by.

Just ordered the first book. The more I read about this stuff the more I think that things like thought reading and mind control may be closer than I previously thought. They may not be able to do it with EEG waves but something like this, cross posted from the downloading memories thread, this just might:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/06/130619122123.htm

The new research could offer crucial insight for scientists responding to President Barack Obama's Brain Research Through Advancing Innovative Neurotechnologies (BRAIN) Initiative, which was announced in April.

Modeled after the Human Genome Project, the objective of the $100 million initiative is to fast-track research that maps out exactly how the brain works and "better understand how we think, learn and remember," according to the BRAIN Initiative website.

Sounds like this would satisfy all three of their interests. Especially if they can figure out how to selectively 'delete' memories. They plan to put 3 billion dollars into the program over the next decade.

I'm convinced that Warren Ellis is a time traveler from the future. I haven't read Ocean. I'm going to the comic book store today I'll definitely look for it.

So is he.

"My life, since writing Transmetropolitan, has been a litany of horror.  Everything I wrote is coming true, even the stupid genetically-engineered animals."

The transients, foglets, and buckets of caribou eyes can't be far behind. D-notices are pretty much already here.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I've never had any problem getting ADD meds, but I started with Ritalin 20something years ago and never saw any reason to jump to anything fancier. I just go to my doc every few months to pick up prescriptions, and since I use the generic it's refuckingdiculously cheap, like eight bucks a month or something.

[Left]

County psych does not prescribe any ADD meds.
...I guess they think we po'folks are gonna sell it.

...Only if I got in a serious bind, but probably not even then.

Sell them drugs once, they will come by, harass me for more,  and probably eventually rob me later...I knows my dopers pretty well.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I get mine from my primary care physician. No insurance, so I have to pay cash for actual proper office visits, but prescriptions I can just walk in and pick up at the front desk.

[McGrupp]

An interesting article about the upcoming BRAIN initiative. Turns out that the pentagon and Darpa are planning on being its biggest funders.

http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/cross-check/2013/05/22/why-you-should-care-about-pentagon-funding-of-obamas-brain-initiative/

There's nothing new about the militarization of brain science. Ten years ago, when I was writing an article on how information is encoded in the brain, Darpa was already a major funder of research on neural coding and neural prosthetics. Darpa program manager Alan Rudolph told me back then that the agency was interested in a wide range of potential applications, including "performance enhancement" of soldiers via either implanted or external electrodes linked to electronic devices.

The best critique I've read is by physician/blogger Peter Freed, who asserts that Pentagon funding of the BRAIN Initiative fulfills President Dwight Eisenhower's 1961 warning about the growing power of the "military-industrial complex."

Barack Obama has asked his Commission for the Study of Bioethical Issues to explore the "ethical, legal, and societal implications raised by [the BRAIN] initiative and other recent advances in neuroscience." Let's not leave it up to government officials and appointees—and neuroscientists–to weigh the pros and cons of neuroweapons

I have mixed feelings about the whole thing but I plan on keeping an eye on this project. Especially with the Society for Neuroscience essentially coming out with the stance of "Shut up, you guys! They want to give us money!"
http://blogs.nature.com/news/2013/04/society-for-neuroscience-quashing-dissent-on-brain-initiative-critic-complains.html

Ordered a neurosky mindwave that came in the mail today. Going to download some software and play around with it later tonight.  Also I definitely need to read 'Mind Wars' by Jonathan D. Moreno.

[McGrupp]

I've never heard of Avery Gilbert before 5 minutes ago, but I think I like him. Here he is ripping Larry Swanson, President of Society for Neuroscience a new one.

http://www.firstnerve.com/2013/04/society-for-neuroscience-president-shut.html?showComment=1365781232877#c597630498352736102

Swanson makes two points: SfN members should support the plan because money, and they should keep any misgivings about it to themselves because money.

Exit question: Can you find the part where Swanson describes the actual neuroscience that $100 million in tax money will buy?