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How the West was lost.

Started by Adios, February 14, 2011, 04:30:20 PM

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Cain

Quote from: Charley Brown on February 15, 2011, 08:42:12 PM
So in the interest of making those countries more immune to their fate, America needs to suffer to pay for our past success?
Lucky? Really? People worked their asses off for that 'luck'.

Actually, yes.  Luck and geography.

Up until about 200-300 years ago, it quite easily could have been China, or Russia, that emerged as the world superpower.  Especially Russia, for most of history their military and economic power has overshadowed most countries.  Energy deposits an global positioning plus the transfer of technology plus the adoption of more efficient economic systems are what the modern world's wealth was built on.  It's not like Americans or Brits actually worked harder than anyone else, instead they more successfully used the opportunities afforded to them through circumstance and luck to build vast amounts of wealth.  If China had been closer to California than New England was to actual England, I have no doubt at least some of this conversation would be happening in Mandarin and not English.

Dysfunctional Cunt

Maybe I've misunderstood.  When I think blue collar workers, I'm thinking skilled laborers.  Plumbers, masons and the like.  Are we putting unskilled plant (manufacturing) workers in with this mix?

I guess we have too.  I think outsourcing (out of country outsourcing) unskilled jobs is both bad and good.  Bad in that we have a shit ton of people in the US who have no skills and could do those jobs, but good for those countries who desperately need the income and good for the American pocketbook.  In truth, it's not like any of the "I'm King of the World" generation is going to stoop to doing one of those jobs anyway.  

X-posted from another site.....  my words....

This is a priviledged generation.  We've made it so easy for them.  No challenges or obstacles to overcome.  Hell they even banned dodgeball.

Within the next 10 years, there will be very few trade workers.  We kept telling every child to go to college, but we forgot about those things that must be done, plumbing, construction, electric, carpentry etc...  These trades lose more workers than they gain every year.  I can say, with all confidence, my mechanic makes more than my Rheumatologist.  Why?  There are 300 Rheumatologists to 30 mechanics...

We've reached a point in our history where there are more college graduates than ever before.  Problem is half of them are managing a Starbucks.

So we can drink a nice latte while the building falls down around us because while I have a college graduate fixing my coffee, there is no one to fix the roof.

Adios

Quote from: Khara on February 15, 2011, 09:31:10 PM
Maybe I've misunderstood.  When I think blue collar workers, I'm thinking skilled laborers.  Plumbers, masons and the like.  Are we putting unskilled plant (manufacturing) workers in with this mix?

I guess we have too.  I think outsourcing (out of country outsourcing) unskilled jobs is both bad and good.  Bad in that we have a shit ton of people in the US who have no skills and could do those jobs, but good for those countries who desperately need the income and good for the American pocketbook.  In truth, it's not like any of the "I'm King of the World" generation is going to stoop to doing one of those jobs anyway.  

X-posted from another site.....  my words....

This is a priviledged generation.  We've made it so easy for them.  No challenges or obstacles to overcome.  Hell they even banned dodgeball.

Within the next 10 years, there will be very few trade workers.  We kept telling every child to go to college, but we forgot about those things that must be done, plumbing, construction, electric, carpentry etc...  These trades lose more workers than they gain every year.  I can say, with all confidence, my mechanic makes more than my Rheumatologist.  Why?  There are 300 Rheumatologists to 30 mechanics...

We've reached a point in our history where there are more college graduates than ever before.  Problem is half of them are managing a Starbucks.

So we can drink a nice latte while the building falls down around us because while I have a college graduate fixing my coffee, there is no one to fix the roof.

Like Roger said, it took him 3 years to find 4 young guys who could do mechanical work. I had a kid working for me who once read a tape measure as 9 and 3/4 and 2 of those little lines after that. He never did learn to read a tape measure. And don't get me started on fractions, which every trade need to know. Hell, even my partner couldn't even do fractions when I had my construction company.

Dysfunctional Cunt

Quote from: Charley Brown on February 15, 2011, 09:39:10 PM

Like Roger said, it took him 3 years to find 4 young guys who could do mechanical work. I had a kid working for me who once read a tape measure as 9 and 3/4 and 2 of those little lines after that. He never did learn to read a tape measure. And don't get me started on fractions, which every trade need to know. Hell, even my partner couldn't even do fractions when I had my construction company.

I understand what you are saying.  I don't consider those unskilled labor jobs.   :?

Adios

Quote from: Khara on February 15, 2011, 09:42:24 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on February 15, 2011, 09:39:10 PM

Like Roger said, it took him 3 years to find 4 young guys who could do mechanical work. I had a kid working for me who once read a tape measure as 9 and 3/4 and 2 of those little lines after that. He never did learn to read a tape measure. And don't get me started on fractions, which every trade need to know. Hell, even my partner couldn't even do fractions when I had my construction company.

I understand what you are saying.  I don't consider those unskilled labor jobs.   :?

Me either.

Void

Quote from: Charley Brown on February 15, 2011, 09:39:10 PM

Like Roger said, it took him 3 years to find 4 young guys who could do mechanical work. I had a kid working for me who once read a tape measure as 9 and 3/4 and 2 of those little lines after that. He never did learn to read a tape measure. And don't get me started on fractions, which every trade need to know. Hell, even my partner couldn't even do fractions when I had my construction company.

Change to the metric system, it makes more precise measurements and an old monkey can read it.

In regards to the OP, I think the trouble is nobody is willing to do the hard work because it isn't "glamorous" to be covered in shit and stinking like a rotten diaper. Most kids I've met have either stars in their eyes or suits and ties, looking for the prestige and the nice juicy paycheck that attracts the wemonz. The only people nowadays who actually do the hard work are dropouts who never gained a Year 10 certificate and/or are forced to be a shitkicker due to lack of options.

One big problem we have where I am is that there is a total lack of pride taken in peoples work. I've lived in the same house for over 20 years and we have only had to do only minor repair work (water damage to a small section of the ceiling, re-pointing roof tiles, me busting holes in walls etc) to it in that time.

On the other hand new housing developments are thrown up in as little as 8 months and they barely last 3 years before they have to be gutted and the majority of the internal structure has to be replaced. Developers buy cheap, throw houses up for cheap, sell for big money and wash their hands with it. The sad thing is that people still pay the ridiculous sale price because of the current housing crisis and they don't know what good workmanship looks like. The majority of the workers on these development jobs are unskilled, underpaid foreign labor who follow the work city to city and couldn't give two shits about the wonky walls and the holes in the sheet metal ceiling because, at $12 an hour, they're not paid to care. Driving down wages for the local workforce and taking positions from young kids trying to find an opening in a highly competitive industry.

People go where the money is, and the money isn't on the shop floor. It's in management telling the shitkickers to work harder, faster and cheaper. And if any of them start to cause a fuss over conditions or wages then there are about 50 workers in the third world who are willing to do it at half the price and who will lick your boot for the privilege, if you aren't there already.

East Coast Hustle

Quote from: Charley Brown on February 15, 2011, 09:27:35 PM
Quote from: Rip City Hustle on February 15, 2011, 09:16:32 PM
As callous as it sounds, though, Jenne is right about several things.

The "Guarantee of American Primacy" is a fallacy of the worst order. Socieities and civilizations are never static entities, and neither is trade or global economics. The outsourcing of production from wealthier high-wage countries to poorer low-wage countries was inevitable. Nostalgic talk of a time when american blue-collar workers could make a wage that would support a family is nice and all, but it's talk of a tiny window in time set during very particular circumstances. And nobody wants to think about the fact that, in the end, such talk brought to fruition would result in $20 disposable razors, $5000 laptops, and $65,000 compact cars.

If your wages suddenly double, but your cost of living more than doubles, who's coming out ahead?

And at what cost do we protect those unable to adapt to ever-changing economic conditions?

At the cost of not bringing back sweatshops, slave-like conditions and destroying the environment. Or is that not happening in the countries the companies are moving into?

That's going to happen wherever those industrial and manufacturing jobs are. If they move back here, you can bet your ass that repeals of worker protections won't be far behind (and will probably be ahead).
Rabid Colostomy Hole Jammer of the Coming Apocalypse™

The Devil is in the details; God is in the nuance.


Some yahoo yelled at me, saying 'GIVE ME LIBERTY OR GIVE ME DEATH', and I thought, "I'm feeling generous today.  Why not BOTH?"