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I had a GREAT idea for a book

Started by Cain, March 08, 2009, 12:42:32 PM

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Cainad (dec.)

Quote from: Zenpeanut on June 03, 2009, 12:57:41 AM
Quote from: Cainad on June 02, 2009, 02:10:56 PM
I'd like to take this opportunity to recommend R. Scott Bakker's The Prince of Nothing trilogy. Again.

The main character (or rather, the biggest mover and shaker in story terms, because the story is told from several perspectives) is a monk from an isolated sect that breeds for the strongest, fastest, and smartest among them and trains and conditions them to a nearly superhuman degree.

This character is, as you might imagine, totally unsympathetic to all other people and is basically a sociopath who is really, really good at getting people to become loyal to him. Hilarity ensues (not really, as the story is set in a Crapsack World).

If you aren't up for reading it (I haven't got the PDFs, after all), I can probably draw up a spoileriffic synopsis with focus on this character, just to help develop the sociopathic hero for this story.

Woh, I remember reading that a long long time ago. It might be worthwhile to dig it back out.

The first book of the next trilogy is out, The Judging Eye.

Sorry, </threadjack>

Cain

What do you guys think about magic?

Personally, I'm somewhat leery about it.  Particularly because of the RPG influence on the fantasy genre, magic comes across to me as something of a plot breaker.  Too much leads to idiocy, and breaks willing suspense of disbelief.  It also tends to overshadow human motivations and political considerations, for some reason.

But equally, without some element of magic, I don't think it can be a proper fantasy detournement, since fantasy does rely on magic to some degree.  If I did include it, it would have to be similar to how GRRM had it in Westeros, I think - something very few people have access to, or even believe in, dangerous, time-consuming and with significant political ramifications when pulled off correctly (the assassination in Game of Thrones of one of the pretenders, the whole Azor Ahai deal, Valyrian steel, the Others, the Faceless Men).

I think that is the way I'd like to use it.  Perhaps even take a leaf out of the book of IRL life occultists (the ones who don't treat it like DIY psychoanalytics) and have it as something bothersome, easy to get wrong and unreliable in the extreme.

But I'm open to other suggestions of how I could deal with this.

Corvidia

Quote from: Cainad on June 02, 2009, 04:35:07 PM
Quote from: Cain on June 02, 2009, 02:15:42 PM
I might be able to find them, I'll look around.

If not, then don't worry, as I might read them later, and in the meantime, I have The Handbook of Psychopathy and the Designated Hero/What the hell, hero?/Complete Monster pages from TV Tropes to work with

(the actual idea for this came from surfing TV Tropes for about 36 hours on end, unsurprisingly)

Been there, thanks to your links. :argh!:
^ That.


On magic. You could do it like Pratchett does with the Witches. Most of the ritual is for show (this could be great fun for your hero), and what really matters is the will.
Alternately, do it like the modern occultists do. And have the hero try it and kill himself. Or one of his foes try it, kill himself or herself, and do it publicly in such a fashion that helps the hero in the long run.
One for sorrow,
Two for joy,
Three for a girl,
Four for a boy,
Five for silver,
Six for gold,
Seven for a secret never to be told.

Cainad (dec.)

Quote from: Cain on June 04, 2009, 03:46:57 AM
What do you guys think about magic?

Personally, I'm somewhat leery about it.  Particularly because of the RPG influence on the fantasy genre, magic comes across to me as something of a plot breaker.  Too much leads to idiocy, and breaks willing suspense of disbelief.  It also tends to overshadow human motivations and political considerations, for some reason.

But equally, without some element of magic, I don't think it can be a proper fantasy detournement, since fantasy does rely on magic to some degree.  If I did include it, it would have to be similar to how GRRM had it in Westeros, I think - something very few people have access to, or even believe in, dangerous, time-consuming and with significant political ramifications when pulled off correctly (the assassination in Game of Thrones of one of the pretenders, the whole Azor Ahai deal, Valyrian steel, the Others, the Faceless Men).

I think that is the way I'd like to use it.  Perhaps even take a leaf out of the book of IRL life occultists (the ones who don't treat it like DIY psychoanalytics) and have it as something bothersome, easy to get wrong and unreliable in the extreme.

But I'm open to other suggestions of how I could deal with this.

I think that's a good way to go about it. Stories with lots of magic can be done well, but they do require spending a fair amount of time explaining that "Magic A is Magic A".

Another thing to consider is that even the high and mighty wizards can be chumps. They might be absentminded professor types, or greedy and selfish power-grubbers who can be manipulated by people more cunning than they are. Even if the magic seems like it could be ridiculously powerful or a plot breaker, it doesn't amount to squat if the people in control of it can be manipulated.

Triple Zero

Another idea, if you want to stay away from magic, but still want to keep a proper fantasy setting, is to include a bunch of mythical or magical creatures. add some Dragons or some sort of monsters, and you don't need magic in the rest of the setting, or you can keep it really localized to the creature. Maybe make it a very strict one-off sphinx like encounter, which puts the hero (or other character) to a dilemma of sorts, which can then be used to showcase any part of their personality or morality that needs showcasing, and perhaps make something happen to move the plot along.

Just having a few magical creatures should put you safely in the fantasy genre, allowing you to concentrate further on the politicky and intrigey bits that we know you are so fond of :)

Just an idea, see if it works for you or inspires you. Basically, instead of having magic to gain fantasy-cred, include some mythical creatures to get there. They don't even need to do magic.

Another idea is to add a fantasy race, such as Orcs. Or perhaps something slightly different to not be entirely cliche (I wouldnt touch dwarves or elves at all). This would also allow you to explore a racism/superiority angle and all the fun concepts that can come with that.
Ex-Soviet Bloc Sexual Attack Swede of Tomorrow™
e-prime disclaimer: let it seem fairly unclear I understand the apparent subjectivity of the above statements. maybe.

INFORMATION SO POWERFUL, YOU ACTUALLY NEED LESS.

LMNO

Magic could be interesting, if you attach it to enormous cost, like physical pain, or taking a dozen years off your life, or something. 

So you could have something like a magical suicide bomber squad, who train all their lives to cast a fireball, but they die in the process; or magicians are like nuclear mutually assured destruction, in that nobody uses them except to bring them out for grandstanding and threats... you could even have the magicians be tatamount to slaves, in that they are forced to learn the dark secrets of annihilation against their will, and used as pawns...

Rococo Modem Basilisk

Why not treat it *as* psychology? That's something that to my knowledge hasn't been done in fiction really. Additionally, it makes it more or less useless in most of the situations where it would be a deus ex machina, but quite absurdly useful in certain other places where you might need it (taking the place of psychological warfare and in some cases psychoanalysis).


I am not "full of hate" as if I were some passive container. I am a generator of hate, and my rage is a renewable resource, like sunshine.

Bebek Sincap Ratatosk

Or you could go the 'Cthulhu' route and have all Magic simply be poorly understood Science. That giant, mostly invisible creature you just summoned is actually a multidimensional being and your 'ritual' was a manipulation of dimensional mechanics. The mostly 'invisible' bits are just the bits in the other dimensions.

Also, magicians should often call up that which they cannot put down....
- I don't see race. I just see cars going around in a circle.

"Back in my day, crazy meant something. Now everyone is crazy" - Charlie Manson

Rococo Modem Basilisk

Quote from: Ratatosk on June 04, 2009, 04:56:32 PM
Also, magicians should often call up that which they cannot put down....

Or put on hold. Cthulu HATES musak.


I am not "full of hate" as if I were some passive container. I am a generator of hate, and my rage is a renewable resource, like sunshine.

Bebek Sincap Ratatosk

Quote from: Enki-][ on June 04, 2009, 05:06:04 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on June 04, 2009, 04:56:32 PM
Also, magicians should often call up that which they cannot put down....

Or put on hold. Cthulu HATES musak.

QFT! That shit drives him Mad...
- I don't see race. I just see cars going around in a circle.

"Back in my day, crazy meant something. Now everyone is crazy" - Charlie Manson

Rococo Modem Basilisk

Quote from: Ratatosk on June 04, 2009, 05:07:51 PM
Quote from: Enki-][ on June 04, 2009, 05:06:04 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on June 04, 2009, 04:56:32 PM
Also, magicians should often call up that which they cannot put down....

Or put on hold. Cthulu HATES musak.

QFT! That shit drives him Mad...

What goes around comes around :-)


I am not "full of hate" as if I were some passive container. I am a generator of hate, and my rage is a renewable resource, like sunshine.

LMNO

Quote from: Enki-][ on June 04, 2009, 04:52:15 PM
Why not treat it *as* psychology? That's something that to my knowledge hasn't been done in fiction really. Additionally, it makes it more or less useless in most of the situations where it would be a deus ex machina, but quite absurdly useful in certain other places where you might need it (taking the place of psychological warfare and in some cases psychoanalysis).

Isn't that pretty much the majority of what the Lancre Witches do on Discworld?


"Headology"

Rococo Modem Basilisk

I dunno. I'm halfway through Thud and I haven't read any other discworld novels.


I am not "full of hate" as if I were some passive container. I am a generator of hate, and my rage is a renewable resource, like sunshine.

Corvidia

Quote from: Enki-][ on June 04, 2009, 06:08:33 PM
I dunno. I'm halfway through Thud and I haven't read any other discworld novels.
KEEP READING. Pick up the Rincewind series and the Granny Weatherwax series as well.

Quote from: LMNO on June 04, 2009, 05:47:08 PM
Quote from: Enki-][ on June 04, 2009, 04:52:15 PM
Why not treat it *as* psychology? That's something that to my knowledge hasn't been done in fiction really. Additionally, it makes it more or less useless in most of the situations where it would be a deus ex machina, but quite absurdly useful in certain other places where you might need it (taking the place of psychological warfare and in some cases psychoanalysis).

Isn't that pretty much the majority of what the Lancre Witches do on Discworld?


"Headology"
Kinda sorta. There's magic for sure, but the ritual is just for show. They don't really need any of it, but it's still useful for dealing with other people.
One for sorrow,
Two for joy,
Three for a girl,
Four for a boy,
Five for silver,
Six for gold,
Seven for a secret never to be told.

Triple Zero

headology is sort of psychology combined with Stubborn Old Woman-ology. While the latter may seem like part of psychology as well, is in fact a much more tangible manifestation of Pure Will. Tangible like the educational smack on the head.

Plus, not everybody can do it, you have to be a Stubborn Old Woman first.
Ex-Soviet Bloc Sexual Attack Swede of Tomorrow™
e-prime disclaimer: let it seem fairly unclear I understand the apparent subjectivity of the above statements. maybe.

INFORMATION SO POWERFUL, YOU ACTUALLY NEED LESS.