Small Scale Utopia

[Cramulus]

Alright, I get it

Anarchy isn't going to work. Which is a shame because I really really like the idea of not ever having a boss, and my labor supporting my local community rather than wall street's drug habit.

And socialism is iffy. I don't even trust the government to deliver the mail, let alone provide actual needs. But its heart is in the right place.

But I have this idea about governance in general - which is that the larger the group of people, the less adequately the government addresses their needs. I think a good government should be able to adapt and respond to issues without getting gridlocked in partisan politics or compromised by financial incentives. The smaller government we're talking about, the better chance it has to do this. As globalism is on the rise, we're all becoming world citizens, and I want an alternative.

Our pal Ed Wilson (co author of Art of Memeics) has a new blog, and this entry seems to be pointing in the right direction. Ed asks -

With our alternate visions we can begin building alternate structures in the gaps of the current system. We can take the innovations and legal structures that already exist and adapt them to our purposes. Corporations, Churches, Non-profits, Co-Ops… these are things that already exist. How can we use them differently?

so consider this

would anarchy or socialism work on a really small scale, suspended within the aether of democratic capitalism?

Imagine living a community of 40-100 people, perhaps on a farm in Montana somewhere where land is really cheap. Would those wacky idealistic government options work?

We'd still have the protections of democracy - like there being a police force to stop roving bikers from taking our drugs and women. But within the community, we wouldn't have to worry about landlordism, taxes, etc.

Perhaps the backdrop is that we would all be employees of some company. Obviously somebody in the community would have to interface with the outside world and sell them things we make. Somebody would be in charge of paying rent and taxes and getting us all insurance.

I'm reminded of the "republican reservations" in Transmetropolitan. Its an area which is walled off to the outside world so the people inside can pretend they're republicans in the 1980s. They created this little bubble within society where they could build their own form of utopia.


Do you think it could work?

[The Johnny]

5 people sharing a house is hell.

I cant imagine all the complications of just doubling that.

And im not sure what benefits moving to the middle of nowhere would give, other than having constant interaction with whom you like.

[Elder Iptuous]

Of course.  Seems like a no brainer to me.  It seems that all the forms of governance are workable on a small scale in the way their proponents envisioned, and it is upon scaling up that they don't work.
This is why I support being power being as distributed as possible.  Why allocate to the county what the municipality can handle?  To the state what the county can handle?  To the federal govt. what the state can handle?  All it does is limit choice, and adaptability.   Oh... and increase the personal power and wealth of those at the higher levels.... Hmmm...
I'm of the opinion that we will be seeing large scale changes in our lifetimes that will "allow" us to explore more local options.
If I had to guess, I'd put decent money on the idea that there are already many 'Galts Gulches' out there operating without any of us knowing it...

[Cain]

Isn't this just another way of proposing counter-economics and economic secession?  Lots of people talk the talk on the issue, even the Centre for A Stateless Society has had some pieces up on it recently (here and here and here) but few are walking the walk.

Which makes me wonder if

a) ignoring the state isn't as easy as it sounds, because the state has an active interest in expanding its power to every facet of social life, including your commune or whatever where you are trying to escape from, or
b) most libertarians and anarchists are dicks who are incapable of getting along with other people, or
c) something else is going on

[Cramulus]

5 people sharing a house is hell.

I cant imagine all the complications of just doubling that.

And im not sure what benefits moving to the middle of nowhere would give, other than having constant interaction with whom you like.

humans lived in tribal units for literally millions of years before we caught the city virus.

The advantage to moving to the middle of nowhere? That you can start your own little country.



without getting into a big diatribe about what I dislike about Shit These Days....

From where I'm sitting, I'm extremely frustrated with how I live, and it's not something I'm doing wrong, it's just a growing disenchantment regarding large scale capitalist democracy. I gotta get a job to earn money to pay rent and taxes, even if I build my own house and shoot my own food. To me, that is not freedom.

Also, I'm sick of how the capitalist aether commodifies everything. You have to put a dollar value on everything - how much money is it worth for you to ditch your friends and family and move into a city you hate? Financial transactions are the real mode of expressions for love, hate, sympathy, and desire. Sometimes it feels like money is the only thing happening in America, and we're just the interchangable red blood cells which carry it.

but anyway, I want to get away from all that, and my only choices are living in a kind of dangerous country.

so can we just build our own world inside the cracks of this one?

If I had to guess, I’d put decent money on the idea that there are already many ‘Galts Gulches’ out there operating without any of us knowing it…

see yeah, that's pointing in the right direction. I've never read Atlas Shrugged, is this Galt's Gulch thing basically what I'm describing?

[Elder Iptuous]

Cain,
yes the local thing gets shut down by the state.
Check out the success and subsequent banning of Wara scrip in depression era Germany.

Check out the success of Unemployed Exchange Association and their issues with Roosevelt, WPA and FedGov in depression era US.

Cram,
Yeah, sorta.  I never finished the book.  to slow for me, but that's kinda the idea.  the 'captains of industry' that were fettered by the state run by leeches shrugged off the burden by going to a place called Galts Gulch where I presume everything because awesome...  that's the gist of it as I understand it.
Perhaps somebody will make a comic book form of it someday so I can get through it with the aid of extra Biff, Pow! Flash!

[The Johnny]

5 people sharing a house is hell.

I cant imagine all the complications of just doubling that.

And im not sure what benefits moving to the middle of nowhere would give, other than having constant interaction with whom you like.

humans lived in tribal units for literally millions of years before we caught the city virus.

The advantage to moving to the middle of nowhere? That you can start your own little country.



without getting into a big diatribe about what I dislike about Shit These Days....

From where I'm sitting, I'm extremely frustrated with how I live, and it's not something I'm doing wrong, it's just a growing disenchantment regarding large scale capitalist democracy. I gotta get a job to earn money to pay rent and taxes, even if I build my own house and shoot my own food. To me, that is not freedom.

Also, I'm sick of how the capitalist aether commodifies everything. You have to put a dollar value on everything - how much money is it worth for you to ditch your friends and family and move into a city you hate? Financial transactions are the real mode of expressions for love, hate, sympathy, and desire. Sometimes it feels like money is the only thing happening in America, and we're just the interchangable red blood cells which carry it.

but anyway, I want to get away from all that, and my only choices are living in a kind of dangerous country.

so can we just build our own world inside the cracks of this one?

If I had to guess, I'd put decent money on the idea that there are already many 'Galts Gulches' out there operating without any of us knowing it...

see yeah, that's pointing in the right direction. I've never read Atlas Shrugged, is this Galt's Gulch thing basically what I'm describing?

If it ever is possible, id be glad to join in.

I just think you cannot escape the system.

[Elder Iptuous]

Just to point out, it seems like much of what you are desiring can be found in any small rural town in the US.
There are many that are not backwoods hick places, but are quaint and some that are artistically oriented that you may fit into....
have you simply considered moving to a small town?

[Captain Utopia]

This is why I support being power being as distributed as possible.  Why allocate to the county what the municipality can handle?  To the state what the county can handle?  To the federal govt. what the state can handle?  All it does is limit choice, and adaptability.   Oh... and increase the personal power and wealth of those at the higher levels.... Hmmm...
I'm of the opinion that we will be seeing large scale changes in our lifetimes that will "allow" us to explore more local options.

I'd substitute "enable" in place of "allow". Once the technology to do this is viable, those advocating that their vote should be worth more than that of the people they represent, will have a hard sell to hold onto the power they've been granted in the past.

[Cramulus]

Just to point out, it seems like much of what you are desiring can be found in any small rural town in the US.
There are many that are not backwoods hick places, but are quaint and some that are artistically oriented that you may fit into....
have you simply considered moving to a small town?

nah it's close but it's really not the same thing

I don't want to work for someone who will threaten my biosurvival by taking away those green tickets if I don't french kiss his ass


I don't want my lifestyle be determined by the lords who own the land I'm living on


I barely want to participate in the greater american theater.

And while the reality of it may turn out to be kind of harsh, I think the idea of living off-grid is really romantic

[Elder Iptuous]

Cram,
Off grid is fine, but it seems that you want to get away from the rat race, but you are still very much a people person rather than a hermit.  therefore, small town.  That's all i was saying.  Small town people have more of a self sufficient mindset, and even if you have a boss, he's going to be more in line with that thinking than in The City.
there are small town art communities that are pretty sweet that i've seen...
Self sufficiency is a noble goal in my opinion, and i am working on improving it as much as possible.  i furthermore would suggest that everyone do the same as quickly as possible because the structures that currently support us are crumbling.

sorry for going kind of off topic.

exactly what type of people would you be looking for?

[Cramulus]

I'm not really interested in the merits of small town live vs big city life

I'm interested in whether it'd be possible to start an entirely new society WITHIN our society



is that possible? or would it collapse due to external pressure?
anarchy or socialism don't seem to work on large scales, but will they work on small scales like this?

[hooplala]

The Amish get away with it.

[Requia ☣]

I've been thinking a lot about these lately, and it seems a good way to leverage mokeyspheres instead of having them used against you.  It isn't even necessarily a matter of economic secession, there are a *lot* of advantages you can get just from banding together, things are cheaper when you have enough people to buy them in bulk, you can use nepotism in your favor, either by having the commune start its own business or by getting some people within the group into position to get others good jobs.

Of course, my vision of setting up these things is a bit different than others' (the Galt thing for example, has absolutely nothing to with how I'd set one up, even in the slightest), and thats possibly the biggest problem, you really need to have enough people who share a vision of how it should work

[Elder Iptuous]

Gotcha.
I would say the answer is yes.  You have ethnic enclaves that pretty well separate themselves... (in both rural and urban environments)
Small scale socialism seems to work pretty well for the Mennonites, no?

I'm still fuzzy on what kind of 'society' you would be seeking?