Small Scale Utopia

[Elder Iptuous]

I'm a middle class prick, looking for land.
but i don't want any hippy artists clogging it up with their colorfully muraled housing and crappy acoustic guitarring.
I would consider firearms to be an effective way of determining whether the land i find is suitable.

Probably still doable.  I think this falls in line with the "sharing a vision" thing.

Oh, I'm not looking for a commune.
Although it would be nice to live on adjoining pieces of property, and there would be significant logistical advantages, if necessary, I really just need to be within short travel distance from other tribe members.

As far as creating a society within society, as OP suggests, I still don't get it.  What is the distinguishing characteristic that would set it apart from the rest of society?   The only thing I saw was that there would be no hierarchy?  Nobody works for anybody else?  Or something about money?

[BabylonHoruv]

Isn't this just another way of proposing counter-economics and economic secession?  Lots of people talk the talk on the issue, even the Centre for A Stateless Society has had some pieces up on it recently (here and here and here) but few are walking the walk.

Which makes me wonder if

a) ignoring the state isn't as easy as it sounds, because the state has an active interest in expanding its power to every facet of social life, including your commune or whatever where you are trying to escape from, or
b) most libertarians and anarchists are dicks who are incapable of getting along with other people, or
c) something else is going on

I'll go with (a)

Also there actually are a fair amount of intentional communities based on anarchist concepts, they just aren't being loud about it.  It is the failures that get press coverage.

[Cramulus]

As far as creating a society within society, as OP suggests, I still don’t get it.  What is the distinguishing characteristic that would set it apart from the rest of society?   The only thing I saw was that there would be no hierarchy?  Nobody works for anybody else?  Or something about money?

let's pretend for a moment that you're an anarchist. You don't want to live on the bottom rung of a hierarchal society. So you move in with your anarchist friends where you can live in peaceful anarchy. But you can't live in anarchy in a little suburban cul de sac. Because when you leave the house, you still have to pay taxes, you still have to pay rent, and that means getting a job and being a capitalist.

so there's this corporation, maybe it's a co-op, maybe it's a non-profit, whatever. And it owns some land, and you go live there, and you do something which helps it (which means everybody else) survive. And in trade it pays your taxes and doesn't charge you rent. And you can live in your anarchist utopia without ever having to stage a revolution.

[LMNO]

If you carve out a commune in the middle of a capitalistic state, someone has to get their hands dirty guarding the borders.

Taxes still have to be paid, utility companies want their share, any food not homegrown must be bought.  And someone has to either earn, collect donations, or donate their savings in order to satisfy the outside entities.

So, someone doesn't get to share in the utopia, because they have to keep the rest of the world out.


I think Cram just said the same thing, in the opposite direction.

[BabylonHoruv]

As much as I want to say, "damn the Man", I really like indoor plumbing and electricity.

I was raised without indoor plumbing and I have to say it is over rated.  An outhouse is way less hassle.

Now admittedly I wouldn't want to go outside to poop in the winter in the midwest, but on the west coast or in the south I see no reason why people should be pooping inside their houses, that's really pretty disgusting.

[LMNO]

Who said anything about taking a shit?  I want to take a hot shower every morning.

[Vaudeville Vigilante]

As far as creating a society within society, as OP suggests, I still don't get it.  What is the distinguishing characteristic that would set it apart from the rest of society?   The only thing I saw was that there would be no hierarchy?  Nobody works for anybody else?  Or something about money?

Possibly to escape the larger pitfalls of consumer driven society?  I'd like to get out from underneath hierarchical structures, and I'd most definitely like to do what some of the good folks at Orange Twin are doing: spend not some but MOST of my time writing and making music and art, or fleshing out innovative ideas in a community of not same-minded but like-minded individuals.  I think it would be much more satisfying to work hard for the basic necessities if the profits weren't all going to some gigantic corporate entity.  I think a community with self-sustained electricity, food, water, etc. could potentially create a lot more free time for creative pursuits, critical thinking, and even idle fucking off than one in which you put in your 9 to 5 doing mindless shit for one company and then 6 to 10 for another, every day, hoping like hell you'll make that late payment on your utility bills before the Man comes in and shuts down the things you need to live.  

Getting out from underneath a socially mandated schedule would be nice too.  Imagine going to sleep when you are tired, waking up when you see fit, and then "working" for your own ends.  

Ugh, I sound like an Idealist.

[BabylonHoruv]

As far as creating a society within society, as OP suggests, I still don't get it.  What is the distinguishing characteristic that would set it apart from the rest of society?   The only thing I saw was that there would be no hierarchy?  Nobody works for anybody else?  Or something about money?

let's pretend for a moment that you're an anarchist. You don't want to live on the bottom rung of a hierarchal society. So you move in with your anarchist friends where you can live in peaceful anarchy. But you can't live in anarchy in a little suburban cul de sac. Because when you leave the house, you still have to pay taxes, you still have to pay rent, and that means getting a job and being a capitalist.

so there's this corporation, maybe it's a co-op, maybe it's a non-profit, whatever. And it owns some land, and you go live there, and you do something which helps it (which means everybody else) survive. And in trade it pays your taxes and doesn't charge you rent. And you can live in your anarchist utopia without ever having to stage a revolution.

People that don't make or spend money don't pay taxes.  That's a big part of why the government will move to eliminate local currencies and barter.

Of course a small community is unlikely to be completely self sufficient, and if they are interfacing with the outside world money, and thus taxes, are going to come into play somewhere, but at that point they aren't really my taxes, they are the whole group's taxes.

Also, I don't really see a problem with paying taxes for the privilege of using the currency system that has it's value created by the force and imaginings of the government.  It's only when they try to keep me from using alternate systems that I have an issue with it.

Admittedly there is also property tax on the space owned by the co-op.

[Cramulus]

If you carve out a commune in the middle of a capitalistic state, someone has to get their hands dirty guarding the borders.

why? what is the commune doing which requires the outside world to intervene?

they pay their taxes and utilities, and so long as they keep the noise down, I don't see why there need to be "guards".

I don't know too much about communes, but they faced these problems too - didn't people living there have to do something productive in order to keep living there? I recall reading in the Electric Kool Aid Acid Test that Ken Kesey's commune sold works of art, thew parties, and probably produced other stuff to sell to the outside world. They grew food AND bought food. Likely it was somebody's job to go into town and be a merchant or something.

[BabylonHoruv]

Who said anything about taking a shit?  I want to take a hot shower every morning.

That's easy.  Showers are about the easiest sort of plumbing to rig and if you have access to water at all you can work out a decent shower system.  Baths are, admittedly, even easier, but showers aren't much more difficult.

It is, admittedly, easier to have an outdoor shower, because of the problem of dealing with the drainage water, but that doesn't take all that much work to integrate into the house.

[LMNO]

Of course, when I say "guarding", i meant more figuratively than literally.

some people cavort and play within the garden of delights, and some people pay the bills in order to keep the garden up and running.

[Vaudeville Vigilante]

Even the most ideal situation has its limitations, but I think minimizing your exposure to the negative effects of the larger consumer driven society is possible, and desirable.  I'm pretty sure Orange Twin gets a break on some tax-related shit, because they are also involved in the effort to preserve/protect a wildlife area.  There will still be taxes on certain things, and certainly still a need for money, but I would liken it to the difference between running a successful record label with your friends, and working FOR one.  For me, it's really about having more creative control over my time, working hard at things worth working hard for.

[BabylonHoruv]

Of course, when I say "guarding", i meant more figuratively than literally.

some people cavort and play within the garden of delights, and some people pay the bills in order to keep the garden up and running.

In any functioning intentional community everyone contributes in a meaningful way.  Dealing with the outside world could be the function of some people, producing goods for sale to the outside world could be others, another could do repairs, another do gardening, depending on personal aptitudes.  You just have to make sure you have a good balance of talents and preferences so that all the necessities are covered.

[LMNO]

Vaud, you realize that Twin Orange isn't actually up and running yet, right?

[Vaudeville Vigilante]

In any functioning intentional community everyone contributes in a meaningful way.  Dealing with the outside world could be the function of some people, producing goods for sale to the outside world could be others, another could do repairs, another do gardening, depending on personal aptitudes.  You just have to make sure you have a good balance of talents and preferences so that all the necessities are covered.

Yes.