Small Scale Utopia

[Kai]

so then if you want to avoid human drama, avoid living with humans.




the question in the OP was - yes, we agree that large scale anarchy is kind of dumb. But does it work on a small scale? And I think everybody's been agreeing so far - the smaller number of people, the more likely it is to work. and the other question is - does it work better if your anarchy is an island floating within democratic capitalism?

Babylon Horuv gave us some great anecdotes about what its' like to grow up in an anarchist/communal lifestyle. He said the police only showed up once, and it turns out they weren't really needed. I like that they were available in case some biker gang came in to start fucking shit up, but were willing to basically leave the farm alone and let it do its own thing.

Okay, so we've established that a small group of people can live in a communal arrangement, provided they aren't in a societal vacuum.

I don't see what's different between that and a half a dozen people renting a place together.

Sounds like a community house to me. IMO, the best way of living, and how I want to end up someday.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Life is full of hard work, no matter where you live or what work you do. I've worked on farms before and for me it was pretty satisfying work. Sure it was hard work (sitting at this desk is much easier) but it was enjoyable work for me. In fact, I'd argue that it was probably less stressful and more healthy than my current job.

But, to each their own, ya know? Some people are willing to slave for the machine, so that they're close to lots of people, concerts, clubs, events and a wide swath of friends and a feeling of personal freedom. Some people are willing to slave for the Earth, so that they're away from the press of mindless hoards of monkeys, free of the PoPo man looking over their shoulder and a feeling of personal freedom.

Most of the 'off-grid' people I've talked to have a balance. They have a garden large enough to serve their needs, hunt (and maybe have some ckickens or some small game) and have something else they do via the Internet to make most of their money. One guy is an architect that is self employed. He rarely needs to leave his home for work and schedules his client meetings so that he can manage them all on a day trip. Another person runs websites and generally those just make money without any sort of daily work.

We're slowly moving past the City Mouse/Country Mouse dichotomy.  

[Kai]

Life is full of hard work, no matter where you live or what work you do. I've worked on farms before and for me it was pretty satisfying work. Sure it was hard work (sitting at this desk is much easier) but it was enjoyable work for me. In fact, I'd argue that it was probably less stressful and more healthy than my current job.

But, to each their own, ya know? Some people are willing to slave for the machine, so that they're close to lots of people, concerts, clubs, events and a wide swath of friends and a feeling of personal freedom. Some people are willing to slave for the Earth, so that they're away from the press of mindless hoards of monkeys, free of the PoPo man looking over their shoulder and a feeling of personal freedom.

Most of the 'off-grid' people I've talked to have a balance. They have a garden large enough to serve their needs, hunt (and maybe have some ckickens or some small game) and have something else they do via the Internet to make most of their money. One guy is an architect that is self employed. He rarely needs to leave his home for work and schedules his client meetings so that he can manage them all on a day trip. Another person runs websites and generally those just make money without any sort of daily work.

We're slowly moving past the City Mouse/Country Mouse dichotomy.  

So, basically we're down to the "it's only viable for a few people, and only if they can live off society's leftovers" conclusion. That's the same for freegans, btw.

I still like my community house idea.

[Doktor Howl]

Life is full of hard work, no matter where you live or what work you do. I've worked on farms before and for me it was pretty satisfying work. Sure it was hard work (sitting at this desk is much easier) but it was enjoyable work for me. In fact, I'd argue that it was probably less stressful and more healthy than my current job.

But, to each their own, ya know? Some people are willing to slave for the machine, so that they're close to lots of people, concerts, clubs, events and a wide swath of friends and a feeling of personal freedom. Some people are willing to slave for the Earth, so that they're away from the press of mindless hoards of monkeys, free of the PoPo man looking over their shoulder and a feeling of personal freedom.

Most of the 'off-grid' people I've talked to have a balance. They have a garden large enough to serve their needs, hunt (and maybe have some ckickens or some small game) and have something else they do via the Internet to make most of their money. One guy is an architect that is self employed. He rarely needs to leave his home for work and schedules his client meetings so that he can manage them all on a day trip. Another person runs websites and generally those just make money without any sort of daily work.

We're slowly moving past the City Mouse/Country Mouse dichotomy.  

So they're not really off the grid, just telecommuting.

[LMNO]

I still like my community house idea.

There's a co-op housing community in my neighborhood.  It's a square of condos around a communal courtyard.  I'm not sure how it works exactly, but everyone seems to help out around the place; it looks like everyone gets to have their own house/apartment, but still shares in the responsibities and expenses. 

They look happy, so I guess it's working.

[Kai]

I still like my community house idea.

There's a co-op housing community in my neighborhood.  It's a square of condos around a communal courtyard.  I'm not sure how it works exactly, but everyone seems to help out around the place; it looks like everyone gets to have their own house/apartment, but still shares in the responsibities and expenses. 

They look happy, so I guess it's working.

Yep, that's the type. There's a lot of those places in Toronto, except squeezed down to a single building.

We never quite lost our tribal tendencies as humans, and a community house/ co-op housing satisfies that. For me, anyway.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Life is full of hard work, no matter where you live or what work you do. I've worked on farms before and for me it was pretty satisfying work. Sure it was hard work (sitting at this desk is much easier) but it was enjoyable work for me. In fact, I'd argue that it was probably less stressful and more healthy than my current job.

But, to each their own, ya know? Some people are willing to slave for the machine, so that they're close to lots of people, concerts, clubs, events and a wide swath of friends and a feeling of personal freedom. Some people are willing to slave for the Earth, so that they're away from the press of mindless hoards of monkeys, free of the PoPo man looking over their shoulder and a feeling of personal freedom.

Most of the 'off-grid' people I've talked to have a balance. They have a garden large enough to serve their needs, hunt (and maybe have some ckickens or some small game) and have something else they do via the Internet to make most of their money. One guy is an architect that is self employed. He rarely needs to leave his home for work and schedules his client meetings so that he can manage them all on a day trip. Another person runs websites and generally those just make money without any sort of daily work.

We're slowly moving past the City Mouse/Country Mouse dichotomy.  

So they're not really off the grid, just telecommuting.

No, 'off the grid' means that they are self sufficient and don't rely on 'the grid' for electricity, gas etc. Most of the people I've talked to don't seem to want to be completely removed from society, but they want to be able to exist in modern society without paying out monthly bills to what they see as antiquated or overpriced services. A lot of them are pushing the minimal impact idea (low carbon footprint, low ecological impact etc). I thought it was interesting how there were a number of different reasons given for living this sort of lifestyle, from these somewhat altruistic ones to the more fringe (like the family I mentioned that home schools their kids to 'protect them').

Off the Grid, but on the net seems to be an interesting concept that's trying to merge the best of both worlds.

[Kai]

Except "self sufficient" means something different.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Except "self sufficient" means something different.

I meant self-sufficiency in the sense used to discuss sustainable living, not self-sufficiency as in a closed economy. 

[Doktor Howl]

Except "self sufficient" means something different.

I meant self-sufficiency in the sense used to discuss sustainable living, not self-sufficiency as in a closed economy. 

In that case, I'm already self-sufficient.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Except "self sufficient" means something different.

I meant self-sufficiency in the sense used to discuss sustainable living, not self-sufficiency as in a closed economy. 

In that case, I'm already self-sufficient.

Dok, just cause the city won't let you use their sewage system anymore doesn't mean you're self-sufficient... it just means you plug the pipes up too often.

[Kai]

Except "self sufficient" means something different.

I meant self-sufficiency in the sense used to discuss sustainable living, not self-sufficiency as in a closed economy. 

In that case, I'm already self-sufficient.

Dok, just cause the city won't let you use their sewage system anymore doesn't mean you're self-sufficient... it just means you plug the pipes up too often.

Okay, Rat, seriously. You just went from off the grid is self sufficiency, which is sustainable living, but it ISN'T sustainable living, just my personal definition of what sustainable happens to be.

[Doktor Howl]

Except "self sufficient" means something different.

I meant self-sufficiency in the sense used to discuss sustainable living, not self-sufficiency as in a closed economy. 

In that case, I'm already self-sufficient.

Dok, just cause the city won't let you use their sewage system anymore doesn't mean you're self-sufficient... it just means you plug the pipes up too often.

That's okay.  I've taken to shitting in the city garden.

I like to think of it as my contribution to a sustainable place for DAs to sit on their lunch hour.

[BabylonHoruv]

people renting a house together is a bit smaller scale than forming an intentional community. In an intentional community you get to be a self-sustaining unit relatively separate from the rest of the country. If everybody rents a place together, they still have to get jobs in the outside world.

Still going to have to pay taxes to the outside world, if you want those police you were mentioning (in fact, you're going to have to pay them anyway).  That means you need outside world currency.

yeah, that's part of the plan

like in Babylon Horuv's anecdote, they did sell some crops to the outside world to cover taxes and other necessities

Actually, most of them had outside jobs, and those that didn't the "crops" they sold were weed.  Some people (my dad, the woman who later became my stepmom and one of the other families) grew enough food that we could have theoretically lived entirely on it, but we still bought things like cheese, which dad never got the hang of making, and flour, which takes more acreage to grow than we had available.  Most people bought the majority of their food.  We had our own water system and most of us were off grid as far as electricity goes, outhouses instead of sewage, but we were not a fully autonomous commune like some.  The non weed crops on the farm were pretty much entirely for internal consumption with the exception of the milk from dad's cow, cause cows produce a LOT of milk and just the people on the farm could not have drunk it all.

[BabylonHoruv]

Life is full of hard work, no matter where you live or what work you do. I've worked on farms before and for me it was pretty satisfying work. Sure it was hard work (sitting at this desk is much easier) but it was enjoyable work for me. In fact, I'd argue that it was probably less stressful and more healthy than my current job.

But, to each their own, ya know? Some people are willing to slave for the machine, so that they're close to lots of people, concerts, clubs, events and a wide swath of friends and a feeling of personal freedom. Some people are willing to slave for the Earth, so that they're away from the press of mindless hoards of monkeys, free of the PoPo man looking over their shoulder and a feeling of personal freedom.

Most of the 'off-grid' people I've talked to have a balance. They have a garden large enough to serve their needs, hunt (and maybe have some ckickens or some small game) and have something else they do via the Internet to make most of their money. One guy is an architect that is self employed. He rarely needs to leave his home for work and schedules his client meetings so that he can manage them all on a day trip. Another person runs websites and generally those just make money without any sort of daily work.

We're slowly moving past the City Mouse/Country Mouse dichotomy.  

Chickens are a huge gift to the gardener.  They eat your garbage, they till up soil and fertilize it too, really perfect for using in a rotation with crops.  Let an area rest and let the chickens into it while it does and you get giant vegetables there next year.  They also aren't that much work, nowhere near as much as a cow or pigs.