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Messages - LMNO, PhD (life continues)

Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 6 7 ... 2012
The Richard Nixon school of ballet and the arts / Re: Ingress
« on: December 16, 2014, 03:45:31 pm »
Yeah, I got a silver Trekker, 48km more to gold, and I'm working on the Engineer (modding a portal).

33 days?  Damn, that's impressive.

Two very good points.  I absolutely agree that language is not necessary for thought.  At first, found it difficult to come up with personal situations where I think without language, but then I realized that when I play music, I'm often not using language to create the rhythms.  I guess my point was in response to the OP, that seemed to state language could not develop in isolation.

And yes, it is a bit arrogant to assume an omnipotent creator entity would have the same mental development as a human.

Yeah, but he said the YHWH thing didn't count as an example, when he mentioned the Elohim. 

So, the sticking point for me is, exactly who is claiming that god was an isolated Mind Before Matter when it created the universe?  So far, I haven't seen any creation myth that has that as part of the story.

I think this is the really interesting part of all of this. It says to me that the monolithic-self (i.e the narrative of self continuity), along with the monotheistic god (the narrative of singular-continuous deity) are 'illusions'.

I'm not sure where how you arrived there from
you can absolutely develop a language in isolation.

I was simply saying that a single person can develop a means of coding, storing, and recalling information absent any other person.

Say a person is in isolation, on an island.  We'll hand-wave the fact that solitary humans don't have a high survival rate, and stay focused.  This person has a pen of goats, and he lets them out in the morning, and pens them up at night.  In order to make sure all the goats are there, when he lets them out in the morning, he puts a stone in a bucket each time a goat walks through the gate. At night, he takes a stone back out as each one walks back in.

That stone is a form of language.  It's a word.  It's coded to mean, "this is a goat," or simply, "goat".
The bucket is also a word.  It means, "field".

A stone in a bucket means, "a goat is in the field".  If there are extra stones left over in the bucket at the end of the day, he's telling himself that "there's a goat missing."  This is one form of language that can develop in isolation.

And you can easily show it's a form of communication, because if there were two people on the island, one of them could put the stones in the bucket in the morning, and the other one could take the stones out at night, and the second person would immediately know if there was a goat missing, without having to speak to the first person.

The Richard Nixon school of ballet and the arts / Re: The Dark Room
« on: December 16, 2014, 11:56:51 am »
Wow.  Fantastic use of second person.

The Richard Nixon school of ballet and the arts / Re: Ingress
« on: December 16, 2014, 11:53:48 am »
It's not a good idea to become too territorial with your portals, but I do have a "couchie" and a "deskie" I like to think of as MINE (that is, a portal always in range of where I sit during work, and a portal in range of my living room).  I basically check them throughout the day, see how they're doing, and if they get hit, I can flip them easily.

As far as making some place 'your turf', there are two approaches.  One, you meet up with a bunch of other players, and set up a large swath of L8 portals and fields.  Those can last for a few days, if it's in the middle of a cycle.

The other way is to be a total pain in the ass, and patrol the area at least once a day, if not more (at work, I usually do a circuit around my building in the morning, go exploring/farming at lunch, and then circle again when I'm going home).  Unless you're deep in enemy territory, they'll eventually move on.

In the end though, the only real way to maintain control is to have a lot of people in the same area working together.  On the other hand, it can get kind of boring.  My work neighborhood is almost always green, so there's not much to do aside from the occasional raids.  I have to do some serious walking to get some action.

It's all good.

The Richard Nixon school of ballet and the arts / Re: WHERE THE FUCK IS ECH
« on: December 15, 2014, 09:27:00 pm »
Well, good thing neither of them are white.*

*I don't think anyone who has lived in St Thomas qualifies, really.

The Richard Nixon school of ballet and the arts / Re: Ingress
« on: December 15, 2014, 07:20:48 pm »

FINALLY.  I woulda gotten this last month, but some spag kept attacking my guardian portal.

Techmology and Scientism / Re: So M$ finally forced the 8.1 update...
« on: December 15, 2014, 06:50:44 pm »
Incidentally, in the market for a decent new laptop and couple of desktops (standard office gear) if anyone feels like throwing some advice around.

Get a mac.

The Richard Nixon school of ballet and the arts / Re: Spagbook
« on: December 15, 2014, 05:50:52 pm »

The Richard Nixon school of ballet and the arts / Re: Spagbook
« on: December 15, 2014, 04:06:56 pm »
cuz he just don't give a fuck.

Ok, so I guess the question about whether language can develop in isolation isn't that hard to figure out.  It's looking like just about every common definition of language includes some reference to "communication", so there necessarily must be a sender and a receiver, even if that receiver is the Self (leaving notes and reminders, for example).

So yeah, as long as it's a set of symbols, or sounds, or just about anything that can be sensed (Original Story Idea: A language communicated through taste), and has a structure that can be understood by a sender and a receiver, you can absolutely develop a language in isolation.

Which means, concerning the OP, we're left, again, with Nigel's list of assumptions.  And, perhaps, the complete overuse of commas, specifically by me.

Sorry I had to take the long way to get there, Nigel.

So, let's go over some of the points, then.

We have not observed minds being mindful in isolation
Is this true?  Have there been experiments where subjects were put in isolation tanks, and subsequently stopped being Mindful?*

*Also, what constitutes "being mindful"?

A mind thinks in language and behaves via reason
Nigel has already pointed out the first half of this is a dubious proposition, and I'll suggest that the second half is also suspect; rationality is HARD, and rarely does it manage behavior.

But what use is language in isolation? Language NEEDS someone to listen, as well as someone to speak.
This, I feel, has some weight behind it.  I can't easily think of an example where language is used for something other than communication.  Even if taking notes for personal use later on is a form of communication for one's self.  Could a language naturally develop in isolation without the purpose of communication?

Therefore, God speaking creation into existence cannot be tenable. For whatever else you define God as, apart from the paradoxes of omnipotence and omniscience, God is Mind preceding Matter. SINGLE Mind.
I believe others have spoken to this point.  However, since we're essentially creating the characteristics of an unknowable and untestable entity, we may have some leeway.  Perhaps, instead of "for whatever else.." we replace it with "if we definie God as..." That way, you're setting up the boundaries of the proposition. 

Although, then we would need to have an example of a theology that does posit a single creator that was an isolated Mind before Matter.  Otherwise, you'll need to come up with a complete cosmology that ultimately doesn't bear much resemblance to commonly held religious beliefs.

And a Mind speaking by itself does not make any logical sense.

This seems to hold water, as suggested by the above quote regarding language.

Polytheism would have to result, which can be seen in the concept of Elohim, the plural form of God, in Genesis.

I see, so the reference to YHWH was an example against an isolated creator Mind.

Talking to yourself makes more sense when you're purely Mind, and able to split up without it being seen as socially transgressive. Hell, it leads to CREATING society.
I think this needs to be fleshed out more.  I'm not sure I'm fully grasping what you're getting at, here.

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