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Messages - Mangrove

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Apple Talk / How to NOT be Metal...a primer by Dave Mustaine
« on: January 04, 2013, 04:17:27 pm »
Lesson #1

Make outrageous claim about Obama being a gun-grabbing nazi who conspired to create various mass shootings. (Bonus points for believing Rick Santorum had presidential qualities...)

Lesson # 2

Utilize social media to make an enormous fuss over nothing.

Please note the hysterically inconsistent: I really think that it sucks when people make false claims.." Also, please note well established career musician pleading poverty. Ok, so he's not making Justin Beiber money, but still, I can't help but think his plea of "We are all living in very tight financial times right now.." is a little disingenuous.

Lesson #3

Nothing quite says 'rock and roll rebel' quite like a Christmas Card competition. SRS BIZNESS

A posting on reads, "Although we were notified of the possible plagiarism by an anonymous fan in Brazil after the Christmas Day call was already placed, we are investigating this matter further."

Yes. Getting to the bottom of the fraudulent winner of a Megadeth art contest is the best use of Dave's critical faculties.

And that's how to NOT be metal. Tune in next week when I explain why Taylor Swift doesn't really play country music.

Apple Talk / Re: Interesting thing about the 2nd amendment.
« on: January 02, 2013, 08:00:12 pm »
1920 Firearms Act started it off, really, though there was some pistol legislation in 1903.

Basically, post-WWI fear of social unrest, Communism and crime led to the need for licences to buy firearms, and to provide reasons for wanting them.

Thank you, sir!

I did wonder if this was connected to WWI.

Apple Talk / Re: Interesting thing about the 2nd amendment.
« on: January 02, 2013, 07:48:45 pm »
He made the point that the 2nd Amendment was not a new idea but merely existed to enshrine existing rights carried over from English law. (Cue the delicious irony that 99.9% of all Brits think Americans are impossibly stupid and irresponsible for loving guns so much.)

Well, that's just the British, not knowing their own history (nothing new there).  In Victorian England, you could buy a gun for personal use, no questions asked, no forms to fill in.  A gentleman was practically required to own at least one handgun and one hunting rifle.

When/how did Britain end up being a largely gun-free nation with some of the strictest laws?

Apple Talk / Re: Touchy Subjects
« on: January 02, 2013, 06:33:25 pm »
I always thought kinesthetics was a touchy subject.

Apple Talk / Re: Interesting thing about the 2nd amendment.
« on: January 02, 2013, 06:31:39 pm »
Hey Roger,

Don't know if you (or anyone else in this thread) have come across this book:

I saw the author doing an interview on the history of gun legislation and it was an eye opening experience. He made the point that the 2nd Amendment was not a new idea but merely existed to enshrine existing rights carried over from English law. (Cue the delicious irony that 99.9% of all Brits think Americans are impossibly stupid and irresponsible for loving guns so much.)

He then went on to say that gun legislation and control has always existed even back in ye olde colonial 'founding father' times that Conservatives seem to love so much. People were required to serve in militias as needed and if they didn't have their own weapon, the town would rent them one - all of which was registered and recorded. Interestingly, no one ever mentioned guns for either hunting or self defense.

Other interesting side avenues was the fact that, well established towns in the so called 'wild west' had gun control and it was a legal requirement that visitors turned their fire arms over to the sheriff. If you were not freezing your ass off in a little shack on the frontiers, there was gun control. The 'everyone packing heat in the old West' notion has been greatly over stated by that bastion of accuracy 'Hollywood'. (This also ties in nicely with Nigel's point about puncturing the myth of the 'rugged individualist'.) The rugged individualist also had to hand over his gun and if he didn't, he was in deep shit - which is funny because the author mentioned that the legendary OK Corral incident was, a dispute that owed itself in part, to the unwillingness to comply with gun surrender laws. [He also got into the issues concerning concealed carry and why that is a hangover from the popularity in the Southern states for pistol dueling.]

Perhaps what was most startling was there was a time when the NRA actually was in support of measures following the rash 1960s assassinations (Kennedys & MLK.) Back then, even Charleton Heston was behind it, it was only later that he got entrenched into the 'first step to tyranny' meme.

Seems that the NRA took a new approach in the 80s which took the form of 'the police can't protect you, do it yourself' and have been flogging it ever since. The whole notion that 'Freedom = Own a gun'  as representing American values and history doesn't pan out on closer examination. There has always been laws surrounding fire arms and it began with the

What the NRA are really doing (IMHO) is playing upon what has really been the issue for much of the 20th century which is 'the freedom to be a consumer'. Tell people absolutely anything and everything to make them want your product and do absolutely anything and everything to make sure that access to said product is entirely unimpeded - no matter how impractical, dangerous or irrelevant that product may be. All the better if you can push the emotional 'patriotism button' and cite authority based on a convenient, revisionist view of history.



Apple Talk / Re: The Last Whiskey Bar
« on: December 24, 2012, 06:38:54 pm »
While you're at it, sue Steve Jackson.  Just because.

Well, it WAS the SJ version of the Principia that I discovere and I DO remember my wife giving me some strange looks when I was trying to explainit to her.  I'm gonna take him to the cleaners!

Discordianism contributed to the demise of your marriage. Case closed. Check cashed!  :banana:

Apple Talk / Re: The Last Whiskey Bar
« on: December 24, 2012, 01:56:26 pm »
With batshit crazy commentary from Victoria Jackson:

"I can't stop crying.  America Died.  Thanks a lot, Christians, for not showing up.  You disgust me."


I had to the google that. Wish I hadn't.  :argh!:

Apple Talk / Re: The Last Whiskey Bar
« on: December 24, 2012, 01:38:15 pm »
While you're at it, sue Steve Jackson.  Just because.

Expect counter suit by Latoyah Jackson. Her lawyer just released the following:

"My client has absolutely no idea what's going, who Mr RWHN is or why he's persecuting her family. However, it sounds like VH1 could make a reality show about it. We just want to be litigious thereby letting the producers & network execs know we are available for work."

Apple Talk / Re: The Last Whiskey Bar
« on: December 24, 2012, 01:32:08 pm »
It occurred to me today that the 11 year relationship I had with my "wife" has been bookended by the LOTR movie trilogies.  Which is poetic in a way.  She gave me a "One Ring" replica as an engagement ring, one of our first dates was seeing the first movie. 

So I guess that means it's time for me to cast my ring back into the fiery chams from which it was made.  I'm just worried she might chuck it back at my head.

Sue Peter Jackson! Find yourself a shonky Lionel Hutz style lawyer and go after him for emotional distress because, if you're successful, it still wouldn't be the dumbest lawsuit in history.  :wink:


Sorry Mang! I conflated you with Burns.

Aha! Burns is my double. He can work on my client this morning and I can go home  :lol:

The again, where exactly does it end for small business? What if you don't want to employ someone who's black because you're a racist piece of garbage?

On one hand, its their business and it may fail or succeed based in the small choices they make and the relationships they build or fail yo build.

On the other hand they're a racist piece of garbage.

This guys sounds like an asshole who needs to get his monkey brain in check and/or get laid.

Courts have ruled that small businesses can practice certain types of hiring discrimination if it suits their business model. Some large businesses can also practice hiring discrimination... Hooters, for example. Many small business owners practice racial preference in hiring... unless they tell someone, who's going to know? You're describing something that is more or less impossible to legislate.

My argument isn't whether the business owner is right, it's whether the court was right in upholding his right to fire an employee for the simple reason that he doesn't, for whatever reason, want to work with her anymore. In my opinion, a small business owner should not be legally forced to continue to work with an employee they don't want to work with, for any reason. For the court to rule otherwise would throw a huge wrench in the ability of small business owners to run their businesses, which is why the rules are different for them in the first place.

Mang's argument is that the burden should be upon the business owner to get therapy so that he can deal with his issue of being attracted to his assistant.

How far do you really want to take that, if it became a precedent? I don't think any of you guys are really thinking through the absurdity of the ramifications you're proposing. Sure, in this case, you're like "That guy is wrong! It's his problem and he should have to suck it up and deal with it!" but the burden that precedent could potentially place on small business owners or other smalltime employers is pretty heavy. Alty and Mang, as small business owners, I'd like you to imagine for a moment that you found yourself the employer of an assistant that for some reason made you really uncomfortable, but you could not legally let go. Going to work puts a knot in your stomach... you hate it. The stress of the situation is taking a toll on your marriage. You are powerless to do anything about it, and your emotional state and ability to do your job is slipping.

What do you do?

That's the situation a court ruling against him would have put thousands of small business owners like yourselves in.

I haz doppleganger? I didn't make an argument in this thread.  :)

Apple Talk / Re: UNLIMITED holist appreciation thread
« on: December 23, 2012, 11:00:13 pm »

I don't know if this is helpful but Roger's use of the word 'hippy' covers a multitude of meanings. Now, I don't want to seem like I am speaking for him, and if he's reading this, please jump in and make the necessary corrections. However, I've been on the forum for a good while and I can say that when Roger says 'hippy' he is describing:

(a) Hippies in the classic sense
(b) New Agers
(c) Pagans
(d) Occultists
(e) Any other unscientific belief or worldview
(f) Self indulgent philosophies with little/no redeeming pragmatic value
(g) Special sub-category: People with superficial, speculative interpretations of Quantum Mechanics
(h) Stoners
(i) People with poor personal hygene

There may be more classifications but these are the ones that end up in common use on PD. Might be useful to not interpret 'hippy' in a literal sense.

I have more to add on this subject, but dinner is ready  :)

Apple Talk / Re: Define "metal".
« on: December 23, 2012, 08:40:48 pm »
Wow, you're our very own Ian Christie. 

Kudos for the Dio reference.  Until his death, I thought his place in the history of metal was often overlooked.(heh, I know). For sure he really brought the fantasy element to the fore-front which inspired many bands, particularily those in the Power Metal genre.  And of course he brought us the devil horns (which was actually an Italian gesture created by his Mom), but I think another key is he was one of those guys who lived and breathed and unapologetically waved the Metal flag.  He was an ambassador.  And of course, one hell of a voice.

Being unapologetic is, I think, a distinctly metal trait in itself. If you call Jimmy Page a 'godfather' of heavy metal he gets all twitchy and defensive. If you said the same to Dio or Rob Halford they would say "HELL YEAH!!" and be totally happy with that identification. Reveling in one's own 'metalness' is part of the experience.

Speaking of which, myself and Step Mang #3 went to see Testament, Heaven & Hell (Dio Sabbath) & Judas Priest. I was a Skolnik fan years ago so I thought it'd be cool to see & hear him but the sound was so godawfully bad, he could've been playing Bach runs on a banjo and it wouldn't have made a difference.

Dio & gang were fantastic and unsurprisingly, they got a much better deal at the sound desk. I don't know if many people knew Dio was sick at the time. If he was, you certainly couldn't tell because he belted his way through all the classic songs, bounded across the stage and waved his finger horns all over the shop. When I first started playing guitar, I was big into Tony Iommi, so it was cool to see one of my heroes.

Judas Priest were very entertaining. I was never into their music however, they were really good. Even though I wasn't a Priest fan, I could appreciate that they were a genre defining act and had a gazillion hours of road experience. Then came the point when Halford shows up on his Harley. It was both very metal and very gay at the same time. HELL BENT FOR LEATHER!  :lol: I came away with a new found respect for them.

I however was very un-metal. Step Mang #3 and I had nosebleed seats and we sat up there drinking coffee surrounded by metal fans....and their little kids. It was the first metal show I ever went to that was family friendly. The same could not be said for the 1992 Monsters of Rock Festival.

Apple Talk / Re: Define "metal".
« on: December 23, 2012, 04:56:45 pm »
The classic proto-metal bands: Led Zeppelin, Black Sabbath & Deep Purple while all known for 'heavy riffs' still had  other musical influences going on. All of them owe a huge debt to blues. Sabbath & Purple had a certain jazz sensibility in their drumming as did bands like Cream, The Doors and The Jimi Hendrix Experience. John Bonham in Zeppelin had a harder, heavier style but one that was in a funky, fatback vein. (No wonder then that the Beastie Boys lifted the drum intro from 'When The Levee Breaks'. It was a lot more funky than metal.)

Zeppelin had their folk and what people would now call 'world music' influences, while Purple delved into the European classical tradition, especially because of guitarist Richie Blackmore. I think the first really 'metal' music saw a narrowing of dynamic range, tighter time, less blues/swing/funk feeling (from Black American music) and instead amped up the operatic vocals as well as bringing a more European classical style virtuosity. (Go from Hendrix, to Blackmore to Yngwie Malmsteen.) 

For instance, Zeppelin liked their heavy guitar riffs. The opening figure to 'Whole Lotta Love' is an old blues lick recycled, in this case recycled from Willie Dixon but the same intervals with a slightly different rhythm is the bass lick to Coltrane's 'A Love Supreme'. Zeppelin would also bust out a mandolin and layer in acoustic guitars tuned in non-standard tunings. Now, imagine Iron Maiden, Judas Priest or Saxon doing the same thing. Tends not to happen.

Ian Gillan & Robert Plant helped set up the operatic vocal style for metal, Ozzy just didn't have the range. Rob Halford of Judas Priest had the high end of Plant, someone like Bruce Dickinson from Maiden had depth & power but without being shrill. Plant could certainly be bluesy, but you're not likely to find that in J.Priest. Let us not forget Ronnie Dio, a little guy with a huge voice (and oddly enough, disproportionately large hands) - very much in the metal camp.

Seems to me that once people hit upon the idea of 'heavy metal', the seemingly non-heavy elements were removed. Instead, bands looked to see how they could become 'heavier'. Some thought that being faster made it more heavy hence 'thrash', some thought that being slower & doomier than Black Sabbath was the way to go. For some, it wasn't just a matter of tempo, but of texture which gives you bands with 2 or more guitars. And when two guitars plus bass isn't enough, you go for de-tuning instruments for an even thicker sound.

The 'heaviness' of the metal can also be found in the lyrics and subject matter. Black Sabbath were the early champions of bleak subject matter until Ozzy got bumped for Dio whereby they shifted into the land of D&D, sword & sorcery fantasy songs. Early Sabbath's songs had more occult themes (cf: Black Sabbath, NIB etc) but were borne out of a fear of rather than glorification of dark, spooky stuff. Later acts decided that it would be 'heavier' to be in league with the devil (thematically speaking) than afraid of him/it which gives us all the so called 'Satanic' versions of metal. Of course, not all metal is centered on the macabre. The 'fantasy' element is still fairly common and some bands (Saxon) like being metal so much they write songs about how...uhh...metal they are (eg: Denim & Leather).

Then you get hair bands of the 80s, but that's a whole other thing.

Basically though - put on early records by the 3 proto-metal bands, then put on Judas Priest, Iron Maiden. Then move on to Metallica, Slayer etc. I think you'll hear things becoming 'more metal' as you go along.

Apple Talk / Re: Define "metal".
« on: December 22, 2012, 11:23:53 pm »
Well "soul" can have different connotations in this discussion.  There is "Soul" as a descriptor of certain forms of music.  But there is "soul" as in whether something has depth and isn't superficial.


I think there's a number of ways in which the word 'soul' gets used. Obviously, it is the name for a particular genre of music 'soul'. However, as a musician I've noticed that there is usage of the word which brings up a stereotype regarding (so called) 'black' vs 'white' music.

The stereotype is essentially that 'black' popular music culture is cooler, hipper, looser and has more emotional heft (soul) than 'white' music which is restrained, uptight and less expressive (not soul). As such, there's plenty of Caucasian musicians who believe they play or aspire to sound what they think of as 'black'.

Check out the movie 'Crossroads' (with Ralph Macchio, not Britney). Young white kid at Julliard playing classical guitar but obsesses over country blues music in his spare time. He tracks down the legendary 'Willie Brown' and busts him out of a nursing home to go on a journey down south into the delta to learn the secrets of Robert Johnson and his 'lost song'. The whole movie is about Ralph Macchio struggling to gain musical & cultural acceptance from African Americans. "See? Look how cool I play...I'm just like you, please love and validate me!"

The movie has a supernatural twist. Willie Brown sold his soul to the devil at the crossroads in exchange for his 15 minutes of fame in the world of blues music. Ralphie steps up to the challenge to win back the contract by battling Steve Vai in a head-cutting guitar jam contest.

Ralph plays bluesy bottleneck slide riffs (played by Arlen Roth) while Steve Vai was basically being himself. Well, lo and behold Vai comes up with a lick so brain melting, Ralph's confidence is shaken - he might not win! ERHMAHGERD! And what does he do? Why, he puts down his glass guitar slide and hammers out a classical piece which had some Paganini runs in it. Vai in his role of 'Jack Butler' cannot copy the lick and thus Faustian pact annulled, Willie saved and devil unhappy but, a deal's a deal, right?

So for 99% of the movie, Ralph Macchio wants to be the ultimate blues man, until his ass gets in trouble when he meets the shred monster so he plays [ahem] so called 'difficult, proper music' and wins. [It's stupid...not as stupid as that movie 'Soul Man' about the kid who sports black face to get into college. Of course, none of the real African Americans]

Contrary to the stereotype we have Wynton Marsalis who plays classical music. Jimi Hendrix idolized Bob Dylan, Charlie Parker wanted to hang with Stravinsky & Miles Davis did some of his best work with Gil Evans (who was white and Canadian). And then there's dear old Elvis who popularized 'Hound Dog', a cover of a song originally done by Big Mamma Thornton but was written by Lieber & Stoller who were Jewish. Jazz musicians love playing songs by Cole Porter who was white and gay and also works by Billy Strayhorn who was black and gay.

The reality shows a great deal of complexity and diversity. However, there's still an idea in pop culture which equates ethnicity to authenticity. It's a bullshit idea but it's there. It's why people are like "Wow...can you believe Eminem raps so well..and he's WHITE!???"  One of my (black) friends (lol, love a cliche) thinks the sun rises and sets on Coldplay. Some of his other (white) friends thinks that makes him less African-American.

Congratulations, you've noticed that fucked-up racial dynamics with deep historical roots exist.

Nigel, I'm confused.

Yes, some white people like myself do notice, contemplate & discuss these things. I'm nearly 39 years old, I've played music since I was 14 and started on the guitar because of Jimi Hendrix. Not only have I spent a great deal of time listening to and playing music, I've also spent time reading about the history, lives & cultures of the music & musicians that I like. Given my interests in jazz and its history, it means that I'm not completely ignorant about racism in music and popular culture. I'm not sure why that deserves a sarcastic response.

Is it preferable that myself, LMNO and others had no idea about these things? (Or worse still, bought into and perpetuated these same stereotypes?)




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