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Messages - Mangrove

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91
The again, where exactly does it end for small business? What if you don't want to employ someone who's black because you're a racist piece of garbage?

On one hand, its their business and it may fail or succeed based in the small choices they make and the relationships they build or fail yo build.

On the other hand they're a racist piece of garbage.

This guys sounds like an asshole who needs to get his monkey brain in check and/or get laid.

Courts have ruled that small businesses can practice certain types of hiring discrimination if it suits their business model. Some large businesses can also practice hiring discrimination... Hooters, for example. Many small business owners practice racial preference in hiring... unless they tell someone, who's going to know? You're describing something that is more or less impossible to legislate.

My argument isn't whether the business owner is right, it's whether the court was right in upholding his right to fire an employee for the simple reason that he doesn't, for whatever reason, want to work with her anymore. In my opinion, a small business owner should not be legally forced to continue to work with an employee they don't want to work with, for any reason. For the court to rule otherwise would throw a huge wrench in the ability of small business owners to run their businesses, which is why the rules are different for them in the first place.

Mang's argument is that the burden should be upon the business owner to get therapy so that he can deal with his issue of being attracted to his assistant.

How far do you really want to take that, if it became a precedent? I don't think any of you guys are really thinking through the absurdity of the ramifications you're proposing. Sure, in this case, you're like "That guy is wrong! It's his problem and he should have to suck it up and deal with it!" but the burden that precedent could potentially place on small business owners or other smalltime employers is pretty heavy. Alty and Mang, as small business owners, I'd like you to imagine for a moment that you found yourself the employer of an assistant that for some reason made you really uncomfortable, but you could not legally let go. Going to work puts a knot in your stomach... you hate it. The stress of the situation is taking a toll on your marriage. You are powerless to do anything about it, and your emotional state and ability to do your job is slipping.

What do you do?

That's the situation a court ruling against him would have put thousands of small business owners like yourselves in.

I haz doppleganger? I didn't make an argument in this thread.  :)


92
Holist,

I don't know if this is helpful but Roger's use of the word 'hippy' covers a multitude of meanings. Now, I don't want to seem like I am speaking for him, and if he's reading this, please jump in and make the necessary corrections. However, I've been on the forum for a good while and I can say that when Roger says 'hippy' he is describing:

(a) Hippies in the classic sense
(b) New Agers
(c) Pagans
(d) Occultists
(e) Any other unscientific belief or worldview
(f) Self indulgent philosophies with little/no redeeming pragmatic value
(g) Special sub-category: People with superficial, speculative interpretations of Quantum Mechanics
(h) Stoners
(i) People with poor personal hygene

There may be more classifications but these are the ones that end up in common use on PD. Might be useful to not interpret 'hippy' in a literal sense.

I have more to add on this subject, but dinner is ready  :)



93
The Richard Nixon school of ballet and the arts / Re: Define "metal".
« on: December 23, 2012, 08:40:48 pm »
Wow, you're our very own Ian Christie. 


Kudos for the Dio reference.  Until his death, I thought his place in the history of metal was often overlooked.(heh, I know). For sure he really brought the fantasy element to the fore-front which inspired many bands, particularily those in the Power Metal genre.  And of course he brought us the devil horns (which was actually an Italian gesture created by his Mom), but I think another key is he was one of those guys who lived and breathed and unapologetically waved the Metal flag.  He was an ambassador.  And of course, one hell of a voice.

Being unapologetic is, I think, a distinctly metal trait in itself. If you call Jimmy Page a 'godfather' of heavy metal he gets all twitchy and defensive. If you said the same to Dio or Rob Halford they would say "HELL YEAH!!" and be totally happy with that identification. Reveling in one's own 'metalness' is part of the experience.

Speaking of which, myself and Step Mang #3 went to see Testament, Heaven & Hell (Dio Sabbath) & Judas Priest. I was a Skolnik fan years ago so I thought it'd be cool to see & hear him but the sound was so godawfully bad, he could've been playing Bach runs on a banjo and it wouldn't have made a difference.

Dio & gang were fantastic and unsurprisingly, they got a much better deal at the sound desk. I don't know if many people knew Dio was sick at the time. If he was, you certainly couldn't tell because he belted his way through all the classic songs, bounded across the stage and waved his finger horns all over the shop. When I first started playing guitar, I was big into Tony Iommi, so it was cool to see one of my heroes.

Judas Priest were very entertaining. I was never into their music however, they were really good. Even though I wasn't a Priest fan, I could appreciate that they were a genre defining act and had a gazillion hours of road experience. Then came the point when Halford shows up on his Harley. It was both very metal and very gay at the same time. HELL BENT FOR LEATHER!  :lol: I came away with a new found respect for them.

I however was very un-metal. Step Mang #3 and I had nosebleed seats and we sat up there drinking coffee surrounded by metal fans....and their little kids. It was the first metal show I ever went to that was family friendly. The same could not be said for the 1992 Monsters of Rock Festival.

94
The Richard Nixon school of ballet and the arts / Re: Define "metal".
« on: December 23, 2012, 04:56:45 pm »
The classic proto-metal bands: Led Zeppelin, Black Sabbath & Deep Purple while all known for 'heavy riffs' still had  other musical influences going on. All of them owe a huge debt to blues. Sabbath & Purple had a certain jazz sensibility in their drumming as did bands like Cream, The Doors and The Jimi Hendrix Experience. John Bonham in Zeppelin had a harder, heavier style but one that was in a funky, fatback vein. (No wonder then that the Beastie Boys lifted the drum intro from 'When The Levee Breaks'. It was a lot more funky than metal.)

Zeppelin had their folk and what people would now call 'world music' influences, while Purple delved into the European classical tradition, especially because of guitarist Richie Blackmore. I think the first really 'metal' music saw a narrowing of dynamic range, tighter time, less blues/swing/funk feeling (from Black American music) and instead amped up the operatic vocals as well as bringing a more European classical style virtuosity. (Go from Hendrix, to Blackmore to Yngwie Malmsteen.) 

For instance, Zeppelin liked their heavy guitar riffs. The opening figure to 'Whole Lotta Love' is an old blues lick recycled, in this case recycled from Willie Dixon but the same intervals with a slightly different rhythm is the bass lick to Coltrane's 'A Love Supreme'. Zeppelin would also bust out a mandolin and layer in acoustic guitars tuned in non-standard tunings. Now, imagine Iron Maiden, Judas Priest or Saxon doing the same thing. Tends not to happen.

Ian Gillan & Robert Plant helped set up the operatic vocal style for metal, Ozzy just didn't have the range. Rob Halford of Judas Priest had the high end of Plant, someone like Bruce Dickinson from Maiden had depth & power but without being shrill. Plant could certainly be bluesy, but you're not likely to find that in J.Priest. Let us not forget Ronnie Dio, a little guy with a huge voice (and oddly enough, disproportionately large hands) - very much in the metal camp.

Seems to me that once people hit upon the idea of 'heavy metal', the seemingly non-heavy elements were removed. Instead, bands looked to see how they could become 'heavier'. Some thought that being faster made it more heavy hence 'thrash', some thought that being slower & doomier than Black Sabbath was the way to go. For some, it wasn't just a matter of tempo, but of texture which gives you bands with 2 or more guitars. And when two guitars plus bass isn't enough, you go for de-tuning instruments for an even thicker sound.

The 'heaviness' of the metal can also be found in the lyrics and subject matter. Black Sabbath were the early champions of bleak subject matter until Ozzy got bumped for Dio whereby they shifted into the land of D&D, sword & sorcery fantasy songs. Early Sabbath's songs had more occult themes (cf: Black Sabbath, NIB etc) but were borne out of a fear of rather than glorification of dark, spooky stuff. Later acts decided that it would be 'heavier' to be in league with the devil (thematically speaking) than afraid of him/it which gives us all the so called 'Satanic' versions of metal. Of course, not all metal is centered on the macabre. The 'fantasy' element is still fairly common and some bands (Saxon) like being metal so much they write songs about how...uhh...metal they are (eg: Denim & Leather).

Then you get hair bands of the 80s, but that's a whole other thing.

Basically though - put on early records by the 3 proto-metal bands, then put on Judas Priest, Iron Maiden. Then move on to Metallica, Slayer etc. I think you'll hear things becoming 'more metal' as you go along.

95
The Richard Nixon school of ballet and the arts / Re: Define "metal".
« on: December 22, 2012, 11:23:53 pm »
Well "soul" can have different connotations in this discussion.  There is "Soul" as a descriptor of certain forms of music.  But there is "soul" as in whether something has depth and isn't superficial.

2nded.

I think there's a number of ways in which the word 'soul' gets used. Obviously, it is the name for a particular genre of music 'soul'. However, as a musician I've noticed that there is usage of the word which brings up a stereotype regarding (so called) 'black' vs 'white' music.

The stereotype is essentially that 'black' popular music culture is cooler, hipper, looser and has more emotional heft (soul) than 'white' music which is restrained, uptight and less expressive (not soul). As such, there's plenty of Caucasian musicians who believe they play or aspire to sound what they think of as 'black'.

Check out the movie 'Crossroads' (with Ralph Macchio, not Britney). Young white kid at Julliard playing classical guitar but obsesses over country blues music in his spare time. He tracks down the legendary 'Willie Brown' and busts him out of a nursing home to go on a journey down south into the delta to learn the secrets of Robert Johnson and his 'lost song'. The whole movie is about Ralph Macchio struggling to gain musical & cultural acceptance from African Americans. "See? Look how cool I play...I'm just like you, please love and validate me!"

The movie has a supernatural twist. Willie Brown sold his soul to the devil at the crossroads in exchange for his 15 minutes of fame in the world of blues music. Ralphie steps up to the challenge to win back the contract by battling Steve Vai in a head-cutting guitar jam contest.

Ralph plays bluesy bottleneck slide riffs (played by Arlen Roth) while Steve Vai was basically being himself. Well, lo and behold Vai comes up with a lick so brain melting, Ralph's confidence is shaken - he might not win! ERHMAHGERD! And what does he do? Why, he puts down his glass guitar slide and hammers out a classical piece which had some Paganini runs in it. Vai in his role of 'Jack Butler' cannot copy the lick and thus Faustian pact annulled, Willie saved and devil unhappy but, a deal's a deal, right?

So for 99% of the movie, Ralph Macchio wants to be the ultimate blues man, until his ass gets in trouble when he meets the shred monster so he plays [ahem] so called 'difficult, proper music' and wins. [It's stupid...not as stupid as that movie 'Soul Man' about the kid who sports black face to get into college. Of course, none of the real African Americans notice..wtf...]

Contrary to the stereotype we have Wynton Marsalis who plays classical music. Jimi Hendrix idolized Bob Dylan, Charlie Parker wanted to hang with Stravinsky & Miles Davis did some of his best work with Gil Evans (who was white and Canadian). And then there's dear old Elvis who popularized 'Hound Dog', a cover of a song originally done by Big Mamma Thornton but was written by Lieber & Stoller who were Jewish. Jazz musicians love playing songs by Cole Porter who was white and gay and also works by Billy Strayhorn who was black and gay.

The reality shows a great deal of complexity and diversity. However, there's still an idea in pop culture which equates ethnicity to authenticity. It's a bullshit idea but it's there. It's why people are like "Wow...can you believe Eminem raps so well..and he's WHITE!???"  One of my (black) friends (lol, love a cliche) thinks the sun rises and sets on Coldplay. Some of his other (white) friends thinks that makes him less African-American.

Congratulations, you've noticed that fucked-up racial dynamics with deep historical roots exist.

Nigel, I'm confused.

Yes, some white people like myself do notice, contemplate & discuss these things. I'm nearly 39 years old, I've played music since I was 14 and started on the guitar because of Jimi Hendrix. Not only have I spent a great deal of time listening to and playing music, I've also spent time reading about the history, lives & cultures of the music & musicians that I like. Given my interests in jazz and its history, it means that I'm not completely ignorant about racism in music and popular culture. I'm not sure why that deserves a sarcastic response.

Is it preferable that myself, LMNO and others had no idea about these things? (Or worse still, bought into and perpetuated these same stereotypes?)

 :?


 

 

96
The Richard Nixon school of ballet and the arts / Re: Define "metal".
« on: December 22, 2012, 03:54:37 pm »
Well "soul" can have different connotations in this discussion.  There is "Soul" as a descriptor of certain forms of music.  But there is "soul" as in whether something has depth and isn't superficial.

2nded.

I think there's a number of ways in which the word 'soul' gets used. Obviously, it is the name for a particular genre of music 'soul'. However, as a musician I've noticed that there is usage of the word which brings up a stereotype regarding (so called) 'black' vs 'white' music.

The stereotype is essentially that 'black' popular music culture is cooler, hipper, looser and has more emotional heft (soul) than 'white' music which is restrained, uptight and less expressive (not soul). As such, there's plenty of Caucasian musicians who believe they play or aspire to sound what they think of as 'black'.

Check out the movie 'Crossroads' (with Ralph Macchio, not Britney). Young white kid at Julliard playing classical guitar but obsesses over country blues music in his spare time. He tracks down the legendary 'Willie Brown' and busts him out of a nursing home to go on a journey down south into the delta to learn the secrets of Robert Johnson and his 'lost song'. The whole movie is about Ralph Macchio struggling to gain musical & cultural acceptance from African Americans. "See? Look how cool I play...I'm just like you, please love and validate me!"

The movie has a supernatural twist. Willie Brown sold his soul to the devil at the crossroads in exchange for his 15 minutes of fame in the world of blues music. Ralphie steps up to the challenge to win back the contract by battling Steve Vai in a head-cutting guitar jam contest.

Ralph plays bluesy bottleneck slide riffs (played by Arlen Roth) while Steve Vai was basically being himself. Well, lo and behold Vai comes up with a lick so brain melting, Ralph's confidence is shaken - he might not win! ERHMAHGERD! And what does he do? Why, he puts down his glass guitar slide and hammers out a classical piece which had some Paganini runs in it. Vai in his role of 'Jack Butler' cannot copy the lick and thus Faustian pact annulled, Willie saved and devil unhappy but, a deal's a deal, right?

So for 99% of the movie, Ralph Macchio wants to be the ultimate blues man, until his ass gets in trouble when he meets the shred monster so he plays [ahem] so called 'difficult, proper music' and wins. [It's stupid...not as stupid as that movie 'Soul Man' about the kid who sports black face to get into college. Of course, none of the real African Americans notice..wtf...]

Contrary to the stereotype we have Wynton Marsalis who plays classical music. Jimi Hendrix idolized Bob Dylan, Charlie Parker wanted to hang with Stravinsky & Miles Davis did some of his best work with Gil Evans (who was white and Canadian). And then there's dear old Elvis who popularized 'Hound Dog', a cover of a song originally done by Big Mamma Thornton but was written by Lieber & Stoller who were Jewish. Jazz musicians love playing songs by Cole Porter who was white and gay and also works by Billy Strayhorn who was black and gay.

The reality shows a great deal of complexity and diversity. However, there's still an idea in pop culture which equates ethnicity to authenticity. It's a bullshit idea but it's there. It's why people are like "Wow...can you believe Eminem raps so well..and he's WHITE!???"  One of my (black) friends (lol, love a cliche) thinks the sun rises and sets on Coldplay. Some of his other (white) friends thinks that makes him less African-American.




 


97
Hippies should be leaving the Sanskrit alone.

Maya is the term used in Hindu and Buddhist schools of thought to describe 'the illusion of permanence' not that 'nothing exists'.

Yeah, just look what they did to the "singularity" concept.  It went from "the point in the future about which and after which you can no longer make accurate predictions", to "AI Jesus".

Quote
The 'illusion' is that the physical world appears on the surface (to our very limited physical perceptions) to appear one way. However, we know from SCIENCE that, indeed, there's lots of shit going on that is very different to how it seems

Never listen to physicists.  They're just making that shit up.  Fucking cat is DEAD, do you hear me?

YUO CANNOT KILL TEH QUANTUM KITTEHZ!!!!!!

98
The Richard Nixon school of ballet and the arts / Re: Define "metal".
« on: December 21, 2012, 05:32:22 pm »
For what it's worth, Faith No More really didn't go out of their way to self-identify as metal, let alone funk metal.  In fact, they really hated the funk metal term because, particularily in the early days, they'd get endleesly compared to the Chili Peppers.  (which is horseshit because the Peppers are crap, where FNM are clearly superior)


People lazily classified FNM as funk metal because of Billy Gould's approach to bass.  Of course in the past they've also been mis-labled rap-metal, thrash metal, proto nu-metal...they were just a great rock band that happened to have five very talented musicians with extremely varied musical backgrounds.

Good point. I wasn't suggesting that these bands necessarily put themselves out there as 'funk metal' only that plenty of people bought into the label without noticing that funk & metal were very different musical genres that I don't think work together. Some genres can be intermixed better than others and I believe that 'funk' and 'metal' are on the 'not as well as others' list.

Mind Funk? See, that's exactly the kind of early 90s retarded nonsense I was talking about.  :argh!:

As for the RHCP, I should have mentioned 'Give It Away' which is fairly funky but not really metal in any way. No one is going to hear that song and think it's like listening to early Metallica.

99
Hippies should be leaving the Sanskrit alone.

Maya is the term used in Hindu and Buddhist schools of thought to describe 'the illusion of permanence' not that 'nothing exists'.

The 'illusion' is that the physical world appears on the surface (to our very limited physical perceptions) to appear one way. However, we know from SCIENCE that, indeed, there's lots of shit going on that is very different to how it seems

The chief problem is that some humans get lulled into thinking that the world around them is permanent and doesn't change. Our ancient oriental thinker friends however, posited the opposite that, it is impermanent and does nothing else but change. Because it changes ALL THE FUCKING TIME, we should not place too much emotional stock in things 'staying the same' or having our all desires successfully fulfilled.

Believing in the permanence of the apparent world creates attachments (I want reality to be this way!) and aversions (I don't want reality to be this way!) which produce 'dukka' or dissatisfaction.

Having been delving into Buddhist and Vedantic thought a lot over the past couple of years, I've found that many of the things that we brought up here with regards to BIPs & barstools had already been covered thousands of years ago.

Authentic Buddhist or Vedic scholars do not deny the reality of being hit with the barstool. The hippy dippy interpretation comes about from cherry picking quotes and ideas without having understood the terminology, methods or context in which they should be used. The problem that arises from that is that so called 'teachers' throw out phrases that people either misinterpret and then extrapolate stupid ideas or they simply ignore the import. (Reality is the Matrix? Big deal!)

As one Swami explained, telling someone 'we are all one!' or 'enlightenment is NOW!' without building an appropriate context often does more harm than good. He said it's like a really poor person who learns that a rich, distant relative has died and left them a vast fortune......if only they can pay the exorbitant legal fees first. That person was acutely aware of their poverty and all they are left with is a frustrating 'if only' story. Bottom line is - you're still poor and now you have to be poor knowing that there was a chance to be filthy rich.

Thus, the world is real it's just that there's a disparity between how it IS and what we wish it to BE.

Hippies are fucking dilettantes. Never accept Sanskrit terminology from hippies.

     

 

100
The Richard Nixon school of ballet and the arts / Re: Define "metal".
« on: December 21, 2012, 04:22:23 pm »
Also, James Brown explained America™, but he did it ON PURPOSE, and he was LAUGHING AT US.

Sorry to double back to earlier points, but Roger mentions James Brown which was something I wanted to bring up before I went to bed last night.

Using the word 'soul' as a musical descriptor is kind of pointless. To say that some music has 'soul' (like blues or uhh...soul..) but to say that metal doesn't really help.

African American derived musical forms like blues, jazz etc have a characteristic rhythmic feeling of 'swing' (cf: Duke Ellington). It's the way those 8th notes get smooshed and pulled around. It's taking rhythmic liberties that would not be permissible in so called Classical music.

Does metal swing? No absolutely not. The even, tight rhythm is, in part what makes it sound metal. However that's not the same as asking if it has emotional content. Metal does have a range of moods that it portrays from aggression to doom n' gloom etc.

I don't get into the 'black music has soul = emotion' but white music doesn't. It would be fairer to say that black musical genres have taken a particular approach to groove that is typically more pliable than the European approach. Whether one is more emotional or 'soulful' than the other is a matter of (a) the artist concerned & (b) the listener. There's plenty of metal that has some guts & blood to it and plenty of soul/RnB music that is completely sterile. There's no end of permutations to this.

Which brings me to James Brown and the sheer fucking idiocy of the late 80s/early 90s belief in FUNK METAL. This, IMHO is utterly impossible because what makes something funky is diametrically opposed to sounding metallic and vice versa.  For reasons that I cannot fathom, there were musicians and music fans who thought that 'We Care A Lot' by Faith No More and even 'Get the Funk Out' by Extreme(!) were funk metal songs. 

That's not to pass judgment on these songs or the artists, but come on, really? When you hear either of these songs does anyone seriously think "Yeah...this totally puts me in the same vibe as James Brown or Parliament?"

THERE WAS NEVER FUNK METAL...and while we're at it THE POLICE WERE NOT A REGGAE  BAND.

   

101
The Richard Nixon school of ballet and the arts / Re: Define "metal".
« on: December 21, 2012, 12:20:17 am »
Led Zeppelin, Black Sabbath & Deep Purple all get labelled as being progenitors of 'metal' even though all three bands have resisted this definition.

Some people are of the opinion that 'metal' came into being with Judas Priest. They took all the loud, crunchy stuff from the above acts but essentially expunged all the 'blues' elements. 

[If you liked 'Headbanger's Journey', the same guy also made the series 'Metal Evolution'.]

102
Ahh Paes, trouble is you've been mislead by the mainstream media who, as always are not reporting the real story.

What do Jose Arguelles, Terrence McKenna and Zachariah Sitchin have in common?

They were all major players in developing the entirely unfounded Maya doomsday urban myth....and they're all dead.   :eek:

2013 - the new batshit conspiracy is that they were all offed for saying 'too much' about 2012. You heard it here first  :tinfoilhat:


PS Glad you guys didn't get annihilated.

103
HELL YEAH!!!


 :banana: :banana:

104
PS New London & Groton???

Xanadu for bedbugs. EXTERMINATE! EXTERMINATE!!!

And the largest submarine base in country. Though anywhere outside of Navy territory is skeevetastic or an extension of Fairfield County (Long Point) that couldn't be arsed to even share a police force with the rest of the city.

New London is high weirdness. I think Roger would like it.

Oh and lest we forget - Submarines and Pfeizer.


105
The Richard Nixon school of ballet and the arts / Re: The Last Whiskey Bar
« on: December 13, 2012, 10:06:39 pm »
Lol, a pizza tax slice? I kind of love it. What'd you get a degree in?

I'm contemplating just losing the spot. It's my favorite, but it's not like there aren't other seats I like.

I didn't. I was in for pre-vet medicine. My program lost its accreditation and then I had a psychotic break and then it was 9/11/2001 and I was in a semi headed for Iowa and my parents were on their way to my college in PA to "SAVE MAH SOUL FROM DER DEBIL!" and it got a little confusing for a few years, there.



I keep meaning to go back, but I'm broke and lazy.

Did it work?  :wink:

I went to work with a silly 'Santa loves me' badge that I found on Mrs Mang's bookcase. Think she got it at J C Penny. Anyway, someone sees the badge and says "Hey, that looks really cool...what does it say?" She squints to look and reads it "Santa loves me!"

I look at her quizzically and say "Santa? I thought it said Satan. I was given this by a coven of dyslexic devil worshippers."

My work colleague fell about laughing, but the woman concerned failed to get the Santa/Satan gag and didn't know what dyslexic meant. Joke roont.

Aww. No it didn't by the time they got to PA I was halfway to Iowa and by the time I got to Iowa, they decided I'd run off and joined a cult and thus my soul is forfeit forever. :P My mom still sends me an e-mail once in awhile to tell me if I don't get baptized I'm going to hell. So I send her one back reminding her that I baptized myself with some home-made holy water and not to worry, the forest spirits will shelter my soul when this fleshy prison can no longer contain my soul.  :lulz:

According to my priestly friend, anyone is entitled to perform a baptism. As long as it includes water, marking the cross and the phrase 'Father, Son & Holy Spirit/Ghost' it counts. [I'm less sure about saying 'Big Daddy, Junior & The Spook' but I can always ask him this weekend.]

I don't whether this will satisfy your mother, but as far as my seminary trained gnostic friend is concerned, you are good to go.
 

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