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Messages - Cain

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Or Kill Me / Re: The Fascist Virus: Defeat
« on: July 06, 2009, 08:53:42 pm »
I wasn't especially pleased with that, but at least there weren't two other active or recent threads addressing the exact same topic.

Principia Discussion / Re: An experiment with Babylon and LMNO
« on: July 06, 2009, 08:52:39 pm »
Survivor bias.  Lots of stock brokers do real well too....until they don't and lose hard.

The House always wins in the long run.  Unless you cheat.

Or Kill Me / Re: The Fascist Virus: Defeat
« on: July 06, 2009, 08:40:52 pm »
Hey fuckers, you already have a thread to discuss your ill-defined, pie in the sky "libertarianism" in.

I suggest you use it and stop hijacking this thread.

« on: July 06, 2009, 08:18:56 pm »
Excellent layout skills there, guys and girls.

Yes, but they can't control these people and one day they have to know the fundies will eat them alive.

Happened in Kansas and it'll happen on a national level too.

Or Kill Me / Re: The Fascist Virus: Defeat
« on: July 06, 2009, 07:06:42 pm »
I'd also like to state, for the record, that I got about 4 hours sleep last night, got up at 8am and its now 7pm in the evening.  If I am making mistakes, then that is why.

I will correct tomorrow.

Or Kill Me / Re: The Fascist Virus: Defeat
« on: July 06, 2009, 07:04:07 pm »
I also thought it was interesting that Reich correctly identified that the Soviet Union was no longer a communist state back in 1935.

I also found this interesting, in an interview I was reading of Zizek's:

It was typical in philosophy after World War II to evoke Nazism and the Holocaust as the most radical evil. You cannot comprehend it with any rational strategy. The idea is also that the experience of the Holocaust is something which undermines the entire traditional philosophy, which was basically the divine regulation, the idea that even if things appear thwarted, failed, and so on, ultimately, in some kind of rational totality, all of these tragedies are relativized as part of a harmonious project. It can be a divine plan; it can also be the development of humanity or whatever. The idea is that the Holocaust cannot be rationalized philosophically here.

Of course, I think that the Holocaust was horrific (my god, it is gross to even have to say that), but for me, Stalinism was even a greater philosophical problem than Nazism. For example, there is a basic difference between Stalinist and Nazi victim status, from a simple phenomenological approach. Under Nazism, if you were a Jew, you were simply killed, no questions asked, you had nothing to prove. You are guilty for who you are, you are a Jew, you are killed, that’s it. Under Stalinism, of course, most [victims] were on trial for false accusations; most of them were not traitors. Nonetheless, there is one interesting feature: that they were tortured or through some kind of blackmail forced to confess to being traitors.

BLVR: So your line of questioning is of the functioning of the system?

Sˇ: Yes. Why this strange need to make them confess? And why the total absence of this in Fascism? In Fascism, if you were a Jew, you were simply killed. Nobody had the idea of arresting Jews and torturing them to confess the Jewish plot. Because in Fascism, you are guilty for your whole being. The very fact that you had to confess makes Stalinism paradoxical and perverse. The idea is that, in a strange way, it admits that you are still a free human being, you had a choice. You are guilty, you have to confess. This does not make Stalinism cause any less suffering; nonetheless, this pure quarrel of radical objectivization, “You are a Jew, you are guilty for who you are,” was absent in Stalinism. In a totally perverted, thwarted, and twisted way, some margin of human freedom was acknowledged under Stalin. So the result is that in Stalinism, everybody was potentially a victim in a totally contingent way.

BLVR: So your interest is not to forget Nazism, but to reexamine Stalinism.

Sˇ: To put it in simplistic terms, Fascism is relatively easy to explain. It is a reactionary phenomenon. Nazism was some bad guys having some bad ideas and unfortunately succeeding in realizing them. In Stalinism the tragedy is that its origin is some kind of radical emancipatory project. In the origins you had a kind of workers’ uprising; the true enigma is how this project of emancipation went so wrong. This is a much greater enigma. The most representative orientation of Marxism in the twentieth century—critical theory of the Frankfurt school—obsessed over Fascism, anti-Semitism, and so on, and simply ignored the topic of Stalinism. Sure, there are a couple of small books, but there is no systematic theory of what Stalinism is. So for me, the key phenomenon to be accounted for in the twentieth century is Stalinism. Because again, Fascism is simple, conservative reaction going wrong. The true enigma is why Stalinism or communism went wrong.

BLVR: Any conclusions?

Sˇ: It is very difficult; I am still working on it. My conclusions are not some kind of conservative or liberal vision according to which Stalinism should be pointed out as kind of a logical demonstration of any project of our so-called post-political era: the idea that the time for projects is over, all we can do is accept capitalist world-market economy, globalism, and so on. Today, whenever somebody tries to risk something politically, you immediately get, “Oh, didn’t you learn the lesson from history, this will end up in Holocaust.” This is the eternal topic of modern liberal-conservative skeptics, that the lesson of the twentieth century is that every radical attempt at social change ends up in mass murder. Their idea is a return to pragmatism, “Let’s strictly distinguish politics from ethics, politics should be limited, pragmatic, only ethics can be absolute.” What I aim at in my rethinking of all of these problems is precisely not to draw this conclusion.

Or Kill Me / Re: The Fascist Virus: Defeat
« on: July 06, 2009, 07:02:10 pm »
Fascism is a form of totalitarianism, but totalitarianism is not always fascism.

Small diagram

                              /         |         \
                   Communism   Nazism     Phalangism

All of them are (arguably) totalitarian, but not a single one has a monopoly on the term.  I also say arguably because within both Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union, interest group-based social models work better, and I have read a good case for decentralized authoritarianism in China.

Given progressive is usually a name for Third Way politics (a mix between social democracy and neoliberalism) it would be very hard to envision a Progressive Totalitarian state.  It would have to collapse into something like Communism or like Fascism to make that transition, since becoming totalitarian (in terms of state terror, a controlled mass media, single party etc) would involve massive violation of their stated beliefs.

Or Kill Me / Re: The Fascist Virus: Defeat
« on: July 06, 2009, 06:52:39 pm »
Renton's, World Fascism and Orcinus.

"More real" is a horrible litmus test for political office, by the way.  Sure, liars aren't great either, but lets just imagine that the "real" Sarah Palin is the VP.

Now, imagine the protests over the Iranian election have started, and McCain has incapacitated himself with an Ambien overdose.

Sarah Palin would almost without a doubt order the invasion and/or bombing of Iran, to support the attempts to overthrow the regime.  Causing chaos to spread through Iraq, Syria and Lebanon.  Hezbollah retaliating with attacks on Tel Aviv.  Iranians attacking shipping in the Straits of Hormuz.  Iraq exploding into violence.  Etc etc

Being real don't matter squat when your politics make Nero look sensible.

Or Kill Me / Re: The Fascist Virus: Defeat
« on: July 06, 2009, 06:45:09 pm »
Well, that varies on your definition.  I mean, if you want to focus on the Young Marx, then you can dismiss pretty much every Communist Party in the world, which is normally Marxist-Leninist, Stalinist or Maoist.  It very much turns into a heresy/true believer thing after a while, which is not helped by Marx's own prodigious output.  The work which has built from Marx over a century and a half makes that even worse.

Noticing things was seriously wrong, from the outside, is pretty impressive though.

Or Kill Me / Re: The Fascist Virus: Defeat
« on: July 06, 2009, 06:37:09 pm »
Wilhelm Reich's "The Mass Psychology of Facism" makes a very good case that Facism did not arise because of Marxism, but it arose when the Marxist revolution failed in the 1930s.

Slavoj Zizek also made this case several times, going as far as to say that every successful Fascist revolution was a sign of a failed Communist revolution.

Which ties back into my whole point that fascism is a club that comes out to beat down on the revolutionary left when everything else fails (see the introductionary piece and next one for more on that).

Many were turning on her before the election - in other words saw the writing on the wall. The fundies like her, but if there was good a turn out in the election she would be a liability

The thing is though, both Kristol and Krauthammer also liked her, but they're atheists.

What is with the Neocons wanting to put their political dicks in every Christian fundie going?  Its pathological, it really is.

Or Kill Me / Re: The Fascist Virus: Defeat
« on: July 06, 2009, 06:31:32 pm »
Dave Renton's Fascism: Theory and Practice
Nigel Copsey's Contemporary British Fascism: The British National Party and the Quest for Legitimacy
Peter Davis and Derek Lynch's Routledge Companion to Fascism and the Far Right
Alexander J. De Grand's Fascist Italy and Nazi Germany: The 'fascist' style of rule (2nd edition)
Lorna Waddington's Hitler's Crusade: Bolshevism and The Myth of the International Jewish Conspiracy
Cyprian P. Blamires et al's World Fascism: A Historical Encyclopedia
Philip Morgan's Fascism in Europe 1919-1945
David Neiwert's blog, Orcinus

Some of the above texts might be available on but its very possible the links will have expired.

Wingnutese to English translation:

"Sarah Palin made me look like a fucking idiot for supporting her so much and so publically.  Goddamn I really hate her now, I look like a moron.  Fuck Palin, fuck her in the ass with a rusty screwdriver, I'll never live this down."

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