A Brief Unverifiable History in Pictures

[AFK]

possibility 3:
Human evolution has always been in an infantile state of boundary testing

Kids as they grow up are constantly testing boundaries through acting out, language development, symbolism development, learning how to use tools, etc., etc. 

Perhaps, in an evolutionary sense, the whole of humanity is in a constant state of infancy.  We're trying to 'grow up' by finding new ways to do things, or simply finding new things to do.  But as we exceed some boundaries (whatever that may mean) we find new ones. 

And like infants, sometimes we go too far, and then get put into "time out". 

[LHX]

the notion of a mystery god and eternal punishment dont really jive with being in a infantile state of boundary testing --

[AFK]

yeah, well I'm a blasphemous heathen so I don't jive well with the notion of eternal gods and mystery punishment.   :-D

But back to the discussion the only thing I wonder with possibility 1 is if the ancients really viewed their situation as "having it bad".  We have a bias of living in a world of "advanced" technologies.  So to many, not having a toilet would be "having it bad"  But with no concept of a toilet the ancients might not come to such a conclusion. 

[B_M_W]

yeah, well I'm a blasphemous heathen so I don't jive well with the notion of eternal gods and mystery punishment.   :-D

But back to the discussion the only thing I wonder with possibility 1 is if the ancients really viewed their situation as "having it bad".  We have a bias of living in a world of "advanced" technologies.  So to many, not having a toilet would be "having it bad"  But with no concept of a toilet the ancients might not come to such a conclusion. 

When the people of the Earth all know beauty as beauty,
   There arises (the recognition of) ugliness.
When the people of the Earth all know the good as good,
   There arises (the recognition of) evil.

Connections...

[Triple Zero]

i talked about the origin of the lie again at a party yesterday, "i have no idea what this guy is trying to get at with it, but he goes on and on about the origin of the lie, what do you think of that", with the right people around you, this will almost always launch you into one of those hyper-intelligent discussions (and trying to keep on track by hitting them with the right barstools).

anyway, where i said "consciousness" before, i should say "self-consciousness" as a friend pointed out, a dog is conscious because it can feel pain, but a dolphin is self-conscious because it can recognize its reflection in a mirror.

now, self-consciousness in itself doesn't do much advantage to an individual. but there are some features that flow out of having self-consciousness: creativity, ability to tell good (working) lies, and probably more but with this little bit of distilled idea we came to an agreement in our heated discussion and thus, interest was lost, and beers were shared.

[LHX]

i have no idea what this guy is trying to get at with it,

i guess i stumbled upon this entire thing in a attempt to determine why this society is so self-destructive in a situation where everybody has good intention

what other possible reasons is there?

weak will power?
'primitive competition'?

it is within our ability to determine the various possible scenarios about what may have happened



sometimes it seems important to try and determine how this situation developed ("if you dont know where youre from, you sure as hell dont know where youre going")

sometimes it seems like nothing more than a hobby


the more refined your map is, the better you can navigate the territory

[ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞]

i have no idea what this guy is trying to get at with it,

i guess i stumbled upon this entire thing in a attempt to determine why this society is so self-destructive in a situation where everybody has good intention

what other possible reasons is there?

weak will power?
'primitive competition'?

You call it self-destructive, they call it an honorable sacrifice.

[LHX]

i have no idea what this guy is trying to get at with it,

i guess i stumbled upon this entire thing in a attempt to determine why this society is so self-destructive in a situation where everybody has good intention

what other possible reasons is there?

weak will power?
'primitive competition'?

You call it self-destructive, they call it an honorable sacrifice.

--- in the name of ---?

[ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞]

Safety, freedom, gods, children, poor defenseless grizzly bears... it doesn't really matter as long as they have the key. 

But it depends on how you're thinking of self-destructiveness and good intention, what specifically do you mean with those terms?


At what point is something destructive, and by what measure is intent good?

[LHX]

At what point is something destructive, and by what measure is intent good?

these are key questions

the only reasonable answer i can put out there is that something is destructive when it appears to be destructive


and intent is good when it seeks to provide a nurturing environment where living things have a opportunity to thrive and perpetuate life (in whatever form it takes)


THAT BEING SAID

there are other reasonable angles to look at this from:

namely - the 'threat' or 'pressure' of being in a destructive situation is a catalyst for creation

(ie. the best art comes out of the worst, most bleak circumstances)


without the slums, there is no Wu-Tang


in a nurturing world, we dont even get brought together

no BIP

no orbital platforms

[Kai]

I am bumping this thread for great justice in reference to the epic Origin of the Lie thread of the late The Discordian Network.

[rong]

maybe i shouldn't be butting in here as i haven't been through this discussion, but dammit, sometimes something is so interesting you feel compelled to post.

from my own personal experience, moving from the city to the woods - i have never been more compelled to lie to people.  the lies i'm compelled to tell are about how many fish did i catch? where did i catch them? seen any bucks lately?  no matter what the truth is - i don't want anyone to know there's a nice 8 pointer hanging out on my land.  i don't want anyone to know where the walleye are biting. 

this got me thinking that the origin of the lie could stem simply from putting the needs of the self over the needs of the species. 

the irony being that preserving the self does preserve the species (assuming the self procreates).  but it also alters the species - in favor of the liar.

anyhow, maybe this has all been covered ad nauseum, but thanks for giving me something new to think about today. 

[Captain Utopia]

maybe i shouldn't be butting in here as i haven't been through this discussion, but dammit, sometimes something is so interesting you feel compelled to post.

from my own personal experience, moving from the city to the woods - i have never been more compelled to lie to people.  the lies i'm compelled to tell are about how many fish did i catch? where did i catch them? seen any bucks lately?  no matter what the truth is - i don't want anyone to know there's a nice 8 pointer hanging out on my land.  i don't want anyone to know where the walleye are biting. 

this got me thinking that the origin of the lie could stem simply from putting the needs of the self over the needs of the species. 

the irony being that preserving the self does preserve the species (assuming the self procreates).  but it also alters the species - in favor of the liar.

anyhow, maybe this has all been covered ad nauseum, but thanks for giving me something new to think about today. 

Is the tasty butterfly species, which has evolved to show the markings of a poisonous butterfly species, telling a lie? Or is the individual butterfly telling a lie?

Does a childs first lie express an intent to deceive or a lack of comprehension of the difference between a preferred reality and consensual reality? What starts as an accident may be propagated because it confers an advantage?

Your example is interesting because presumably these are lies you have a very low chance of being caught out on. Have you found yourself lying more in other contexts?

[rong]

maybe i shouldn't be butting in here as i haven't been through this discussion, but dammit, sometimes something is so interesting you feel compelled to post.

from my own personal experience, moving from the city to the woods - i have never been more compelled to lie to people.  the lies i'm compelled to tell are about how many fish did i catch? where did i catch them? seen any bucks lately?  no matter what the truth is - i don't want anyone to know there's a nice 8 pointer hanging out on my land.  i don't want anyone to know where the walleye are biting. 

this got me thinking that the origin of the lie could stem simply from putting the needs of the self over the needs of the species. 

the irony being that preserving the self does preserve the species (assuming the self procreates).  but it also alters the species - in favor of the liar.

anyhow, maybe this has all been covered ad nauseum, but thanks for giving me something new to think about today. 

Is the tasty butterfly species, which has evolved to show the markings of a poisonous butterfly species, telling a lie? Or is the individual butterfly telling a lie?

Does a childs first lie express an intent to deceive or a lack of comprehension of the difference between a preferred reality and consensual reality? What starts as an accident may be propagated because it confers an advantage?

Your example is interesting because presumably these are lies you have a very low chance of being caught out on. Have you found yourself lying more in other contexts?

i would say the butterfly example supports the evolutionary advantage of the liar altering the species notion.

i would guess that a child's first lie depends on the child. 

personally, it's only as to the whereabouts of good things in nature.  around here, i'm not the only one in that regard - nobody will ever tell you where they find their morel mushrooms. ever.

i guess i would call it protecting a limited supply of something you can't physically defend.

edit: in responding to your questions, i forgot to mention some other related things that came to mind.

there's some sort of quandry, i think:
-in the "defense of self" sense justification of the lie, it would seem that only the "weak" or "unsuccessful" really need the Truth.

-only those in power are in the position to demand the Truth.

-a lie is the only defense the weak has against those in power.

speaking in broad generalizations here, i suppose.  and i need to think about this some more before i see what i'm really getting at.

(where the definition of the Truth remains to be determined - and i did read enough of this thread to see that the Truth is where the discussion eventually headed, but i don't think i'm done with the lie yet)

[Captain Utopia]

I realise we're likely retreading old hashed-out ground here - having missed out on the original thread also, but I really like where you're going with this, so if you wanna bash this out some more, I'm game.

personally, it's only as to the whereabouts of good things in nature.  around here, i'm not the only one in that regard - nobody will ever tell you where they find their morel mushrooms. ever.

To a certain extent then, that environment supports multiple realities more easily - e.g. the one where you say you saw a buck but didn't, vs the one where you say nothing when you do - the cost of the lie is very cheap.

I suppose, living in the city, I could equally make up stories/lies.. but since a city is built for consumption, there's rarely as much personal benefit to doing so. What's the point of not telling my friends about some great new place to eat, when if it's good it's going to be packed within a few weeks anyway?

i guess i would call it protecting a limited supply of something you can't physically defend.

Also, in more "civilised" areas, you don't need to personally defend things physically, as you can depend upon other institutions to uphold your rights. If your car gets stolen, you can replace it on insurance.

there's some sort of quandry, i think:
-in the "defense of self" sense justification of the lie, it would seem that only the "weak" or "unsuccessful" really need the Truth.

Yes and no I think. It's like the Tragedy of the Commons - when no-one has a motivation to cooperate, the weak and unsuccessful are those who play by the rules. But if most (I think there's a critical mass) people play by the rules, then everyone can benefit.

For example, if you trusted your neighbour to share your mushroom patch fairly, he may tell you about good resources on his land. I'd be surprised if long-term acquaintances, who have built trust, don't do this already in secret.

-only those in power are in the position to demand the Truth.

Very true.

-a lie is the only defense the weak has against those in power.

I'm not sure about this.. yes on one level, but I think it maintains the power disparity in a broader sense. For example, if everyone who supported the legalisation of weed stood up and were a united political force, that would be unstoppable. But instead most of those people are concerned about their jobs/relationships/criminal records, and lie themselves into a weaker position.

When lying is easier than telling the truth, it becomes the path of least resistance?