At Any Given Moment

[Cain]

fear of the unknown has no foundation

it is a flaw

it doesnt make sense


calling back to 'the lie' issue -
that seems to be the main beef i have with most evolution theories - they dont address a flaw such as this


it seems like a box that was opened and a something was unleashed (those parables make more and more sense)

and in the terror - man was driven to technological heights that would otherwise have been impossible



fear of the unknown and striving to achieve illusionary feats

a ill wind

something is rotten

Except it DOES have a foundation. Because for early humans what was unknown was also often dangerous, and not in a psychological "tearing down walls" way, but in a physical "killed and eated" way. What was unknown, what might be hiding behind that bush, waiting in that tree, could be the death of you. And for life to survive and evolve, it has to be programed to avoid death. Otherwise there wouldn't been any living things. Get it?

However, for a large part we have outgrown this fear.

Of course, the unknown always holds the promise of something better too.  From the mysterious new world to nanotech, the unknown is an opportunity, nothing more or less.

[B_M_W]

Not the promise of, just the possibility for the opportunity of. And maybe dangerous as well.

Hiroshima/Nagasaki, anyone?

[LHX]

Except it DOES have a foundation. Because for early humans what was unknown was also often dangerous, and not in a psychological "tearing down walls" way, but in a physical "killed and eated" way. What was unknown, what might be hiding behind that bush, waiting in that tree, could be the death of you. And for life to survive and evolve, it has to be programed to avoid death. Otherwise there wouldn't been any living things. Get it?

However, for a large part we have outgrown this fear.

from what i gather - people / things draw back from pain

but this fear of death seems to be something different

i agree that it took that fear to push man to the heights of technology (worldwide communications) and depths of suffering (poverty, unfulfillment, inequality, lack of freedom, etc that he has gotten to

kids dont understand 'a universe without them in it' at first, because (at root) its bullshit and it takes a lot of explaining

[LHX]

why?

i really still don't get where you are trying to go with this "lie" stuff. the advantages are there, the ways to accidentally stumble upon the concept are also there. keep in mind we're talking about tens of thousands of <i>generations</i>. even a monkey could figure it out.

yeah - my hunch is that it was accidentally stumbled upon - but it was intentionally put into use

[LHX]

Of course, the unknown always holds the promise of something better too. From the mysterious new world to nanotech, the unknown is an opportunity, nothing more or less.

thats not a popular gamble tho - like if you took a poll of people, not many would choose the unknown and unexplored


it takes a real bad situation - one where any change would be a welcome change from the current experience


if you are in a situation thats almost intolerable - what would be the drawback of leaping into the unknown?

[B_M_W]

A physical need could turn into a psychological condition in post-sentience evolution.

It could become more than just avoiding pain, it could become avoiding death as well.

Though, I would say that avoiding death would have evolved first. Do trees feel pain? No, but their processes indicate a teleos which tries to avoid death.

[LHX]

Though, I would say that avoiding death would have evolved first. Do trees feel pain? No, but their processes indicate a teleos which tries to avoid death.

got dam that shit is fascinating

A physical need could turn into a psychological condition in post-sentience evolution.

It could become more than just avoiding pain, it could become avoiding death as well.

that makes sense

and once it is known that things move in a way to avoid death, there is the observation that one can use that fear of death as a penalty, and apply pressure / suffering

if the penalty for disobedience is that thing that you are afraid of, then guess who is gonna obey?

the math is basic at that point



good eye Monk
good eye

[Triple Zero]

why?

i really still don't get where you are trying to go with this "lie" stuff. the advantages are there, the ways to accidentally stumble upon the concept are also there. keep in mind we're talking about tens of thousands of <i>generations</i>. even a monkey could figure it out.

yeah - my hunch is that it was accidentally stumbled upon - but it was intentionally put into use

but of course.
i told you before, in order to observe the advantage, and then to put telling a lie to use, you need a certain amount of self-reflection. you can't get that without consciousness.

mmm i'm just going on a limb here, ok? let's say telling lies is advantageous to an individual. in order to tell better and better lies, one needs to develop the consciousness.


could it be?

[LHX]

man

this attempt to re-construct history is fun


i think i see what you are saying

consciousness is necessary to lie

-- i dont really know what you mean by that second part tho

[AFK]

fear of the unknown has no foundation

it is a flaw

it doesnt make sense

I agree with this, though, it may be from a splitting hairs perspective. 
In a way, isn't it really fear of the known happening at an unexpected time. 
And moreover, this fear of the unknown is basically a rest area on the interstate to the fear of death. 

Actually, I think that is a bigger flaw really.  Because it is a fear of something inevitable.  Something I've never really understood, from a personal point of view.  I don't fear death.  It's going to happen.  It may happen 20 years from now, it may happen 40 years from now.  Hell, I could get hit by a bus when I leave work today. 

And this fear has definitely been fuel for technological innovation, especially in medicine.  At the same time, though, I think it has increased human suffering.  Longer lives has lead to more people getting cancer.  I often wonder sometimes if human innovation is outpacing human physiological evolution (assuming it exists). 

[P3nT4gR4m]

Fear of the unknown/fear of death seems to me to be closely associated with fear of change/attachment to status quo. That's the one thing that's fucking up the human race more than anything, this whole "better the devil you know" bullshit. Newsflash - the devil you know is still the fucking devil!

The best way to deal with fear of death is to face it, climb a mountain, drive a fast car, do something reckless. Sooner or later you're going to find yourself in that golden place that adrenaline junkies live for, where you're staring death in the face. There's no rush comes close and there's absofuckinglutely nothing more liberating. Sure there's every chance it might kill ya but, if it doesn't, you'll come to realise that that's not really as important as it was back when you were scared of death.

[B_M_W]

Fear of the unknown/fear of death seems to me to be closely associated with fear of change/attachment to status quo. That's the one thing that's fucking up the human race more than anything, this whole "better the devil you know" bullshit. Newsflash - the devil you know is still the fucking devil!

The best way to deal with fear of death is to face it, climb a mountain, drive a fast car, do something reckless. Sooner or later you're going to find yourself in that golden place that adrenaline junkies live for, where you're staring death in the face. There's no rush comes close and there's absofuckinglutely nothing more liberating. Sure there's every chance it might kill ya but, if it doesn't, you'll come to realise that that's not really as important as it was back when you were scared of death.

But the fear of death is still there. Thats why they do it, because they fear death and because the fear is exilarating for them. They still fear death, but they choose to face it.

I don't think there are many people who truly do not fear death. Thats a massive psychological program to stop.

[P3nT4gR4m]

Fear of the unknown/fear of death seems to me to be closely associated with fear of change/attachment to status quo. That's the one thing that's fucking up the human race more than anything, this whole "better the devil you know" bullshit. Newsflash - the devil you know is still the fucking devil!

The best way to deal with fear of death is to face it, climb a mountain, drive a fast car, do something reckless. Sooner or later you're going to find yourself in that golden place that adrenaline junkies live for, where you're staring death in the face. There's no rush comes close and there's absofuckinglutely nothing more liberating. Sure there's every chance it might kill ya but, if it doesn't, you'll come to realise that that's not really as important as it was back when you were scared of death.

But the fear of death is still there. Thats why they do it, because they fear death and because the fear is exilarating for them. They still fear death, but they choose to face it.

I don't think there are many people who truly do not fear death. Thats a massive psychological program to stop.

You're dealing with two different things here

1) The immediate physiological response to impending danger

2) The crippling psychological constraint of obsession

I enjoy no 1 occasionally, however I have no problems with no 2

example - I fall off a cliff and its pretty much a foregone conclusion that I aint surviving the fall, two things will happen: I'll think "wow! so this is when I die", at the same time my body will probably shit itself.

[Jenne]

Fear of the unknown/fear of death seems to me to be closely associated with fear of change/attachment to status quo. That's the one thing that's fucking up the human race more than anything, this whole "better the devil you know" bullshit. Newsflash - the devil you know is still the fucking devil!

The best way to deal with fear of death is to face it, climb a mountain, drive a fast car, do something reckless. Sooner or later you're going to find yourself in that golden place that adrenaline junkies live for, where you're staring death in the face. There's no rush comes close and there's absofuckinglutely nothing more liberating. Sure there's every chance it might kill ya but, if it doesn't, you'll come to realise that that's not really as important as it was back when you were scared of death.

But the fear of death is still there. Thats why they do it, because they fear death and because the fear is exilarating for them. They still fear death, but they choose to face it.

I don't think there are many people who truly do not fear death. Thats a massive psychological program to stop.

I believe this too...and the only way to test it is to put them in a near-death experience and see how they react.

[LHX]

Above all, the Way of the Samurai should be in being aware that you do not know what is going to happen next, and in querying every item day and night. Victory and defeat are matters of the temporary force of circumstances. The way of avoiding shame is different. It is simply in death.
Even if it seems certain that you will lose, retaliate. Neither wisdom nor technique has a place in this. A real man does not think of victory or defeat. He plunges recklessly towards an irrational death. By doing this, you will awaken from your dreams.