CloserToGod: Black Iron Prison Rebuttal

[Manta Obscura]

As many have pointed out CtG seems to have missed the point in claiming to have "escaped".  However it does strike close to something that I've been wondering about, namely that the idea of "jailbreaking" seems to run counter to the BiP metaphor, i.e. that you cannot escape the limitations of your perceptions.  I did a little searching for the term in the PD.com forums but didn't seem to see a discussion on the topic.

  Could someone point me to one perhaps?  Or have I too missed the point albeit in a different way?

I was confused about the "jailbreak" metaphor in relation to the BIP for a long time, too, although I think I may have come to a (possibly erroneous) conclusion regarding it.

My initial thoughts were, "If we can't escape the BIP, but can only tear down/rearrange the bars/walls to find ourselves in a different/larger prison, then why use the term 'jailbreak'?" In my mind looking at the metaphor, a "jailbreak" from the BIP would and could be nothing short of physical death.

But after ruminating on it a little longer, I remembered the bit from the pamphlet (or possibly the "What Now?" section in the Wiki, I can't remember) about how recognizing one's own prisons gives you the ability to free some headspace. And rather than a jailbreak being freedom from the prison itself, I thought that maybe the metaphor is talking about letting go of the mental claustrophobia that comes from feeling trapped in the walls. I have since taken the jailbreak metaphor to be more of a way of saying, "Calm the fuck down, it'll be okay in your cell as long as you remember to breathe," rather than a way of saying, "I got the spoons here, kid; let's tunnel our way out."

To quote RWHN's immortal words: "Suffocation is simply where you stopped breathing."

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

As many have pointed out CtG seems to have missed the point in claiming to have "escaped".  However it does strike close to something that I've been wondering about, namely that the idea of "jailbreaking" seems to run counter to the BiP metaphor, i.e. that you cannot escape the limitations of your perceptions.  I did a little searching for the term in the PD.com forums but didn't seem to see a discussion on the topic.

  Could someone point me to one perhaps?  Or have I too missed the point albeit in a different way?

There are a few hairy debates on this topic... LMNO and I had a rather lengthy one IIRC.

I don't think jailbreak is quite the right term though....

For me, the Prison appears as a prison as long as you don't see it, don't know its there, what its made of or how to modify it.... HOWEVER, once you start changing your prison, once you start considering block by block, bar by bar what stays, what goes, what you can influence and what you can't influence, then I think you can choose to turn your constraints and your limitations into something other than a prison.

Many people disagree with me. Yet I'd consider a submarine, a spaceship, the harness on a roller coaster to all consist of constraints and limitations. Yet, those constraints and limitations, rather than being a prison, are what allow us to go experience space, the deep oceans or a thrill ride. I think, if we are conscious of our limitations, that we can turn our Prison into a vehicle of exploration. After all, getting to experience LIFE seems just as dangerous and rewarding as getting to experience "The Demon Drop".

[fomenter]

that makes some sense ratat a prison which when you leave the cell rearrange the cell blocks becomes a vehicle, its a sloppy metaphor but i agree with the idea it tries to convey

[Manta Obscura]

that makes some sense ratat a prison which when you leave the cell rearrange the cell blocks becomes a vehicle, its a sloppy metaphor but i agree with the idea it tries to convey

It reminds me of the saying, "Turning a house into a home," except in this case I guess it would be "Turning a cell into a cottage."

[fomenter]

an erector set prison, the bars appear sold till you find the wrench and to rework them into the vehicle of your own design.
unfortunately an erector set metaphor is badly dated it needs a modern computer game/toy reference that conveys the same meaning

[Cain]

Actually, between them, Nietzsche Hume and Foucault even did away with the idea of an individual personality.  As Nietzsche pointed out, "there is thinking therefore there is thinking" is the only real conclusion one can draw.

That rules.

I'ma go take a more serious look at these Nietzsche PDFs nao... and by "nao" I mean when finals aren't eating my brain.

I don't know if his objections to Rousseau are in his main books, but they are certainly present within his notes, published as The Will to Power.  His general metaphysic is pretty much global skepticism anyhow, so it fits.

I think Foucault covers the same ground in The Order of Things.

Is the above Nietzschean quote from "The Will to Power"? I've never read that one.

I don't think it is that exact quote, but its very similar, and yes it is from The Will to Power.  Its either in the book on European Nihilism, or the book on Metaphysics, possibly both.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

that makes some sense ratat a prison which when you leave the cell rearrange the cell blocks becomes a vehicle, its a sloppy metaphor but i agree with the idea it tries to convey

It reminds me of the saying, "Turning a house into a home," except in this case I guess it would be "Turning a cell into a cottage."

Maybe, but I always thought of that line as saying you had become comfortable in your house, thus it became a home... or that you had 'settled'. This seems to be the opposite of what someone in the BiP might need to do

I think its important to stress that you modify your 'prison' into a vehicle of exploration that is most useful to experiencing/exploring, it won't necessarily be comfortable and familiar, it might not be roomy, it may be tricky to drive... but its worth the difficulty in order to gain the prize... experiencing life.

It can be difficult to explore if a man is at ease in his Inn... he may need to get OUT.

[Manta Obscura]

that makes some sense ratat a prison which when you leave the cell rearrange the cell blocks becomes a vehicle, its a sloppy metaphor but i agree with the idea it tries to convey

It reminds me of the saying, "Turning a house into a home," except in this case I guess it would be "Turning a cell into a cottage."

Maybe, but I always thought of that line as saying you had become comfortable in your house, thus it became a home... or that you had 'settled'. This seems to be the opposite of what someone in the BiP might need to do

I think its important to stress that you modify your 'prison' into a vehicle of exploration that is most useful to experiencing/exploring, it won't necessarily be comfortable and familiar, it might not be roomy, it may be tricky to drive... but its worth the difficulty in order to gain the prize... experiencing life.

It can be difficult to explore if a man is at ease in his Inn... he may need to get OUT.

I'm digging the idea of the "prison" being transformed into a "vehicle."

When I mentioned the cottage bit, I wasn't necessarily referring to comfort or lackadaisicality (if that's a word), really; I had meant it as an allusion to my previous post about not feeling confined or claustrophobic . . . maintaining the ability to find your situation workable rather than gloom-and-doom. But I see what you mean about not falling into the trap of comfort and familiarity. Good metaphors, Rat.

[fomenter]

i thought the erector set prison was a very good fit , but i actually played with erector sets as a kid so i can get its not hitting people w/o that experience

[Manta Obscura]

i thought the erector set prison was a very good fit , but i actually played with erector sets as a kid so i can get its not hitting people w/o that experience

I've never played with one, although I did play with Tinker Toys and Legos as a kid. Maybe one of those two could be adopted into a BIP-style metaphor.

Come to think of it, Legos might be really good. We're all little Lego dudes stuck in our Lego Block Forts (LBF), and it's up to us to rebuild the block forts into a Lego Block Plane (LBP)*. But we can never really escape from the LBF because, as Legos, we are and ever shall be surrounded by Legos, LBFs, or LBPs. Our very bodies are made of Legos, so we can't escape the LBF until we die, a.k.a. experience the Great Pulling Apart of Pieces (GPAoP) . . . .

Jesus, I need to get some more sleep.





*Sold separately

[fomenter]

the nice thing about erector set was you got tools to build/reconfigure it into the design you want, Lego is definitly more cross generational

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I tend to think of the term "jailbreak", in this metaphor, as "breaking down your jail" by consciously recognizing its component parts, thereby giving you the ability to interact with and change the way you perceive the world.

[Cainad (dec.)]

I tend to think of the term "jailbreak", in this metaphor, as "breaking down your jail" by consciously recognizing its component parts, thereby giving you the ability to interact with and change the way you perceive the world.

TITCM


I've tried to deal with the confusion surrounding this metaphor in the past, but I don't know how successful I was. All I know is that I butted in on one of the famous LMNO-vs-Ratatosk debates.

Basically, I argued that the confusion over "breaking out" of the BIP (which is referred to in the very first part of the BIP pamphlet) is the result of actually having two metaphors with the same name. Somehow this dual metaphor sneaked its way into the publication without anyone complaining, and I rather like that even though, or perhaps because, it causes this confusion. I'm going to try to restate my position.

The first Black Iron Prison I will deal with is the "larger" BIP. This is the BIP that consists largely of biological limits on our perception, and this is the one where we "rearrange the bars" but cannot escape because to "escape" this BIP implies nothing short of omniscience. We as humans are biologically incapable of, say, perceiving all wavelengths of light simultaneously or hearing sounds out of our fairly limited range. However, the other component of this BIP is belief systems, which are highly changeable. Therefore this larger BIP cannot be broken out of, but it can be altered for the purpose of changing one's perception of reality to some extent.

The second Black Iron Prison is the "smaller" BIP. This is the BIP that we are invited to "escape" in the pamphlet, and it's also the BIP that (hypothetically) one escapes by comprehending the psychobabble about Reality Grids in the Principia. This is the BIP of ignorance, since one cannot change one perceptions of reality if one never grasps the idea that one's perceptions are limited.

Corollary to all this is that when we "break out" of the smaller BIP, then we are free to tinker with the belief systems that comprise part of the larger BIP. Your mileage may vary, and certain people seem to be more focused about either the larger BIP or the smaller one.



I did all these fancy metal gymnastics, and then Nigel wrote the above quote and made the idea of two BIPs unnecessary.

[shadowfurry23]

I tend to think of the term "jailbreak", in this metaphor, as "breaking down your jail" by consciously recognizing its component parts, thereby giving you the ability to interact with and change the way you perceive the world.

TITCM

Indeed.  Very cleanly stated, Nigel.

[LMNO]

I like where that just went.

The only apprehension I have is that this creates a Finish Line, and the ability for someone to say "I have broken down my prison cell.  I am free."

Yeah, they're missing the concept, but i'm really feel that the act of breaking down the walls is a constant, unending process which is far more important than "finishing".

Just because you pruned your hedges last spring doesn't mean you never have to garden again.  And just because you broke down your prison walls doesn't mean you're not using the bricks to build a new one.

A true initiation never ends.  The journey is more important than the destination.  Breaking through the wall is more important than what's on the other side.