Author Topic: Fleshing out Occult - refinement of diagrams  (Read 28763 times)

Cain

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Re: Fleshing out Occult - refinement of diagrams
« Reply #45 on: February 15, 2007, 09:43:18 pm »
Being lost is a frequent occurence.  Best bet is to ask people to clarify their terms.

Doc Howl

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Re: Fleshing out Occult - refinement of diagrams
« Reply #46 on: February 15, 2007, 09:45:39 pm »
Being lost is a frequent occurence.  Best bet is to ask people to clarify their terms.

Sounds reasonable.  But I am assuming you guys aren't very evangelical.
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Re: Fleshing out Occult - refinement of diagrams
« Reply #47 on: February 15, 2007, 09:48:52 pm »
Yup.

We explain things until our fingers bleed, however.

Doc Howl

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Re: Fleshing out Occult - refinement of diagrams
« Reply #48 on: February 15, 2007, 09:49:42 pm »
Yup.

We explain things until our fingers bleed, however.

Yup you are, or yup you aren't?
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Mangrove

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Re: Fleshing out Occult - refinement of diagrams
« Reply #49 on: February 15, 2007, 09:51:47 pm »
doc,

don't know if you've been following the thread from the beginning or not.

some time ago, LHX (and others) were contemplating the idea that underpinning various occult systems, there was a lot of commonality and areas of overlap.

what we were thinking of was, removing all the various cultural and historical crud that had built up, find an essential 'skeleton' and then see whether any of the basic tennets contained anything that would be useful to us in the 21st century.

now that LHX has discovered gliffy, he's experiencing much joy in producing pics, diagrams and charts that illustrate this line of thinking.

i decided that in order to dissect occultism, to start with 'divination' and see what, in essence, it was all about. that is, trying to find a bottom line definition that would encompass all methods of divination we could think of.

(that of course, is separate from the discussion whether one believes in fortune telling or not. what we're most concerned here is with symbol systems and their manipulation)

hope that helps
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LHX

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Re: Fleshing out Occult - refinement of diagrams
« Reply #50 on: February 15, 2007, 09:53:34 pm »
thanks LHX.

i mean, so many cultures invented some form of divinatory practise, some of them simple, some of they mind boggling complex, but (IMO) all born from the same impulse.

at the most basic level it's this:

think of something
juggle some symbols
interpret according to the theory
re-think




agreed

the structure of divinatory systems seems virtually identical in all cases
(from what i know of at least)


same animal in different clothes

are not the choice of symbols arbitrary?


i think the choice of symbols CAN BE arbitrary
but the choice of symbols can also be based on a symbol system that is already in place (like the i ching)

bumped in case Mang missed it at the bottom of last page
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Re: Fleshing out Occult - refinement of diagrams
« Reply #51 on: February 15, 2007, 09:54:39 pm »
Yup.

We explain things until our fingers bleed, however.

Yup you are, or yup you aren't?

Yup, we're usually not.  We kind of would like to be, sort of, sometimes, but we don't really stand on street corners shouting on about Eris.

Some do, though.  They tend to be dicks.

Doc Howl

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Re: Fleshing out Occult - refinement of diagrams
« Reply #52 on: February 15, 2007, 09:57:41 pm »
doc,

don't know if you've been following the thread from the beginning or not.

some time ago, LHX (and others) were contemplating the idea that underpinning various occult systems, there was a lot of commonality and areas of overlap.

what we were thinking of was, removing all the various cultural and historical crud that had built up, find an essential 'skeleton' and then see whether any of the basic tennets contained anything that would be useful to us in the 21st century.

now that LHX has discovered gliffy, he's experiencing much joy in producing pics, diagrams and charts that illustrate this line of thinking.

i decided that in order to dissect occultism, to start with 'divination' and see what, in essence, it was all about. that is, trying to find a bottom line definition that would encompass all methods of divination we could think of.

(that of course, is separate from the discussion whether one believes in fortune telling or not. what we're most concerned here is with symbol systems and their manipulation)

hope that helps

It does help.  Thank you very much.

However, I can answer the question about underpinning commonalities for you.  They all have one thing in common:  They are based entirely on what we doctors call "made up bullshit", and they ARE useful in the modern world, mostly for separating fools and their money.
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Mangrove

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Re: Fleshing out Occult - refinement of diagrams
« Reply #53 on: February 15, 2007, 09:59:00 pm »
LHX - sorry, man. i did see your point only i got distracted.  :D

ok, i see what you're getting at in terms of the i-ching. (though i could be a total pain in the ass and argue why a straight line is yang, a broken line is yin and why a stack of 3 lines of varying states of completeness or brokeness should indicate a mountain or thunder or whatever...)

however, i think that's just muddying for its own sake!

i think a more important question is, now that we've found a reasonable working definition, what motivates the creation of these symbol systems?

What makes it so? Making it so is what makes it so.

Doc Howl

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Re: Fleshing out Occult - refinement of diagrams
« Reply #54 on: February 15, 2007, 10:06:50 pm »
Yup.

We explain things until our fingers bleed, however.

Yup you are, or yup you aren't?

Yup, we're usually not.  We kind of would like to be, sort of, sometimes, but we don't really stand on street corners shouting on about Eris.

Some do, though.  They tend to be dicks.

I see.
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Re: Fleshing out Occult - refinement of diagrams
« Reply #55 on: February 15, 2007, 10:10:38 pm »
Isn't choosing to use tarot over I Ching also an arbitrary choice of symbols?  You just choose to use a prepackaged set rather than assembling your own, for whatever reason?

(Oh dear god, I just made myself ill thinking of a "Discordian" tarot deck that gracelessly grabs symbols from a couple dozen different other means of divination and slaps them all on pieces of cardboard.  Hmm, I got Hexagram 28, the Tower, and three sticks lying together in S formation...)

ALSO, just to possibly jack this in another direction, I would consider a choice like this another one of those choices to reshape a wall of your Prison Cell.  I am deliberately choosing to limit the possible insights available to me by choosing tarot over sticks or dice, and it's assumed I have some reason for this.  Mine would be familiarity with the medium - it's easier for me to get to the actual insight-having because the symbols already speak to me.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2007, 10:12:51 pm by DJRubberducky »
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LHX

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Re: Fleshing out Occult - refinement of diagrams
« Reply #56 on: February 15, 2007, 10:13:27 pm »
LHX - sorry, man. i did see your point only i got distracted.  :D

ok, i see what you're getting at in terms of the i-ching. (though i could be a total pain in the ass and argue why a straight line is yang, a broken line is yin and why a stack of 3 lines of varying states of completeness or brokeness should indicate a mountain or thunder or whatever...)

however, i think that's just muddying for its own sake!
actually - you bring up a good point

it does kind of make sense to call it arbitrary

i think a more important question is, now that we've found a reasonable working definition, what motivates the creation of these symbol systems?
this almost seems new-thread-worthy...
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Doc Howl

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Re: Fleshing out Occult - refinement of diagrams
« Reply #57 on: February 15, 2007, 10:14:12 pm »
Isn't choosing to use tarot over I Ching also an arbitrary choice of symbols?  You just choose to use a prepackaged set rather than assembling your own, for whatever reason?

(Oh dear god, I just made myself ill thinking of a "Discordian" tarot deck that gracelessly grabs symbols from a couple dozen different other means of divination and slaps them all on pieces of cardboard.  Hmm, I got Hexagram 28, the Tower, and three sticks lying together in S formation...)

You may as well choose an arbitrary set of symbols, because there is no underlying logic.  This weird quest for a grand unified theory of occult mechanics is  nothing more than mental masturbation.  Amusing, I guess, but ultimately useless, because the only possible application for this shit doesn't require any of this bullshit.  It simply requires charisma and snake oil.
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LHX

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Re: Fleshing out Occult - refinement of diagrams
« Reply #58 on: February 15, 2007, 10:18:26 pm »
You may as well choose an arbitrary set of symbols, because there is no underlying logic.  This weird quest for a grand unified theory of occult mechanics is  nothing more than mental masturbation.  Amusing, I guess, but ultimately useless, because the only possible application for this shit doesn't require any of this bullshit.  It simply requires charisma and snake oil.
if the goal was a grand unified theory of occult mechanics, then it would be pretty lame

in reality, thats just a bump on the road


they already are all related

and the underlying logic is pretty blatant



some lofty claims youre making doc
neat hell

Doc Howl

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Re: Fleshing out Occult - refinement of diagrams
« Reply #59 on: February 15, 2007, 10:19:57 pm »
You may as well choose an arbitrary set of symbols, because there is no underlying logic.  This weird quest for a grand unified theory of occult mechanics is  nothing more than mental masturbation.  Amusing, I guess, but ultimately useless, because the only possible application for this shit doesn't require any of this bullshit.  It simply requires charisma and snake oil.
if the goal was a grand unified theory of occult mechanics, then it would be pretty lame

in reality, thats just a bump on the road


they already are all related

and the underlying logic is pretty blatant



some lofty claims youre making doc

Okay.  In layman's terms, what underlying logic is there?

And the only claim I make is that the occult is unalloyed bullshit.
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