Random News Stories

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Yup.

Just the kind of case you need to reframe the abortion debate. I would hope this is an exceptional incidence but I suspect it may be portrayed by some to be happening everywhere. Horrific shit tends to be good for creating horrific laws. Think about all the crazy GOP statements from the past year. Expect to hear them again soon referencing this, with a side of "I told you so"

And just enough people will buy it to keep the bullshit going on and on.

The other side will argue that this is the kind of thing that happens when you make it hard for women to get abortions in nice clean safe well-regulated hospitals, and that more laws restricting abortion will make it happen more, not less.

Don't know how effective that counterargument will be in influencing public opinion, though.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Where there was a moral issue, they would create a crime.

And that's really all you have to know, to understand the 21st century.

[Junkenstein]

I'd say it would usually be quite effective. However this case is going to get the emotions going of those who would normally act fairly rationally. I'd bet on a rise in statements along the lines of "I used to be Pro-choice but now....."

The other part is that this is dealing with child murder really. Abortion and relevant laws/practices have little to do with the case. I really doubt that the discourse will make this distinction.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I'd say it would usually be quite effective. However this case is going to get the emotions going of those who would normally act fairly rationally. I'd bet on a rise in statements along the lines of "I used to be Pro-choice but now....."

The other part is that this is dealing with child murder really. Abortion and relevant laws/practices have little to do with the case. I really doubt that the discourse will make this distinction.

And that's the basic disconnect.  The moral result of Roe v Wade was that a fetus is a baby if the mother wants it to be a baby.  Therefore a viable fetus IS a person in a murder trial, but not when it comes to abortion.

The Family, etc, understand this concept, but it is a blasphemy to them...As it puts the decision-making power into the hands fo the woman, and that is utterly unacceptable.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I'd say it would usually be quite effective. However this case is going to get the emotions going of those who would normally act fairly rationally. I'd bet on a rise in statements along the lines of "I used to be Pro-choice but now....."

The other part is that this is dealing with child murder really. Abortion and relevant laws/practices have little to do with the case. I really doubt that the discourse will make this distinction.

Yes, the fact that the preterm babies were born alive and THEN killed may seem like a technicality, but it is an important one.

One of the questions I have, which may never get answered, is why so many of these women were having late-term abortions in the first place, and I suspect that it has to do with scheduling and accessibility issues... pregnant women don't usually decide six months in that they don't want a baby after all. They usually don't want one right from the beginning.

Which makes me wonder if he was making them wait because he was overbooking.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Also, I think that restricting abortion enough to ensure that atrocities like this take place is the deliberate, premeditated goal of the pro-life crowd.

[Junkenstein]

The late term aspect will need close examination.

I gather that mental health is not really a priority in the US (or anywhere really) and I would be surprised if this was not at least an element in some cases, alongside other societal pressures (Work/family/money/etc). I recall post-partum depression figures always being higher than anticipated. Could this just be profiteering from pre-partum depression? I would suspect some women(and partners) get past the legal abortion point and the situation becomes much more real as the final solution is no longer there. Then it is.

If he's that busy, surely hiring help would be wise? Would the usual hippocratic oath not apply, forcing him to send them to another facility?

I'm not going to claim any expertise on anything here, just speculating. All I'm sure about is this is the next big abortion clusterfuck.

If this is a deliberate, premeditated goal then I would say it's one of the shittiest things in history. That crowd is crazy, but not that crazy. I would think it more likely to be a hopefully anticipated side effect. If quite a few similar cases come along quickly that would support deliberate evil.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I gather that mental health is not really a priority in the US

[Junkenstein]

Make 'em laugh, Make 'em laugh make 'em laaaaaaaugh!

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Make 'em laugh, Make 'em laugh make 'em laaaaaaaugh!

GO OUT WITH A SMILE!

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

The late term aspect will need close examination.

I gather that mental health is not really a priority in the US (or anywhere really) and I would be surprised if this was not at least an element in some cases, alongside other societal pressures (Work/family/money/etc). I recall post-partum depression figures always being higher than anticipated. Could this just be profiteering from pre-partum depression? I would suspect some women(and partners) get past the legal abortion point and the situation becomes much more real as the final solution is no longer there. Then it is.

If he's that busy, surely hiring help would be wise? Would the usual hippocratic oath not apply, forcing him to send them to another facility?

I'm not going to claim any expertise on anything here, just speculating. All I'm sure about is this is the next big abortion clusterfuck.

If this is a deliberate, premeditated goal then I would say it's one of the shittiest things in history. That crowd is crazy, but not that crazy. I would think it more likely to be a hopefully anticipated side effect. If quite a few similar cases come along quickly that would support deliberate evil.

They are completely that crazy, because forcing conditions that foster this kind of situation gives them what they want; dirty dangerous abortions where those sluts are punished. The goal is not to save lives, but to outlaw abortion, and the more atrocities occur because of laws that restrict the accessibility of safe early-term abortions in high-quality hospitals and clinics, the more unsafe late-term abortions will take place in low-quality abortion mills, giving them the fuel they want to lobby for even more restrictive laws.

"Pre-partum depression"? What is that? Did you just make it up?

Seriously, people are stupid, but you're really underestimating women, or have an incredibly poor idea of how pregnancy works, if you think that so many women would just "let it slide" until the 7th month or so, when they are heavily, visibly pregnant and the procedure is very expensive and dangerous.

I suspect that the key factor here has to do with the unavailability of early-term abortions for these women.

[Junkenstein]

"Pre-partum depression"? What is that? Did you just make it up?

I'll be honest - I pulled it out of my ass. I freely admit I know pretty much fuck all about pregnancy personally beyond the basics. If the gods are kind to the world I never will.

I googled, it appears to be a thing. Or at least a psuedo thing. Not an expert.
For those who are: Feel free to chime in.
http://scholar.google.co.uk/scholar?q=pre+partum+depression&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart&sa=X&ei=RYQ_UaUag9I54piAIA&ved=0CC4QgQMwAA

I have very low opinion of people, it's not just women. I base that line of reasoning around the fact things like Jeremy Kyle and Jerry Springer exist. The people I work with exist. More than a few cases where people were unaware of pregnancy until going into labour (mainly teens I think, but also a few past 30) so it's possible some cases were not aware until late stages?

You are most likely spot on that the availability is the key issue, I'm waiting for more evidence before I call this a planned pre-meditated goal though.

Again, totally not an expert here. Just speculating based on random information.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

There is such a thing as pregnancy depression, but it's not properly called "pre-partum" depression, and it would never be called "pre-partum" in a woman who had an abortion.

The reason might become clear when you look up the word "partum".

Anyway, I think that you are brilliantly optimistic regarding how evil people can be when it comes to pursuing their moral goals. Degraded, unsafe abortion conditions is not the ultimate goal of the pro-lifers, it's a means to an end, and since it's readily foreseeable, I think it's safe to conclude that it's deliberate.

As far as people being unaware that they are pregnant until they go into labor, yes, it happens, INCREDIBLY rarely, usually in extremely obese women. The odds that this doctor would encounter hundreds, let alone thousands, such cases are astronomically small. The odds that he would encounter even a dozen are vanishingly small. So there's clearly something else going on; some other reason the women were waiting until the last trimester to obtain an abortion.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

BTW, almost all of the hits you pulled up are about post-partum depression, and just happen to also have the word pre-partum in them somewhere. FYI.

[minuspace]

There is such a thing as pregnancy depression, but it's not properly called "pre-partum" depression, and it would never be called "pre-partum" in a woman who had an abortion.

The reason might become clear when you look up the word "partum". [...]

[There is] some other reason the women were waiting until the last trimester to obtain an abortion.

Although development is still a gradual process, "and life does not begin at conception", I guess it still makes abortion appear more like infanticide because of the images formed in the mind. [and just to rub it in, someone outside just started operating a power drill  ]