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[tyrannosaurus vex]

Like with any head of state, the Pope's power isn't absolute. The Pope is the leader of the RCC, and has quite a bit of power and influence, but is still smaller than the organization he leads. The Church is very capable of removing "heretical" Popes from office, and has done so in the past. The people believe in the Pope and support him (usually) as long as the Pope serves to reinforce their higher belief and faith in the Church as an institution. He can lead the way to change, but he can't just declare it to be so, especially these days when it's more or less considered bad manners to have his vocal opponents beheaded. If his reforms are to have any lasting effect at all, he has to avoid crossing the line between "reformer" and "radical." Like that time some guy in Egypt wiped out all the references to the old gods and forced everyone to become monotheists - soon as he was dead, they erased him from their history.

Everybody wants everything done yesterday, and in the case of the Roman Catholic Church, I agree that it's a few centuries behind schedule when it comes to generally not being a force for shittiness. But let's not forget this is the Roman Catholic Church. These assholes took four centuries to finally apologize to Galileo. Things being what they are, I think Francis has done what he can do at this point -- and he's already in hot water with half of his congregation. Pushing things to far will probably just get the rest of the Catholic establishment to put up with him while blocking his reforms from taking root, and then quickly undoing everything he's done once he's out of office (one way or another). One promising thing to note is that he has been reorganizing many of the top posts among the cardinals, removing some of the most vocal proponents of the Culture War. His overall strategy seems to be one of softening the tone and removing some of the hateful elements of the establishment, paving the way for deeper reforms after he's gone.

Or, he's just an asshat trying to stop the Church hemorrhaging membership by pretending a put a happy face on the whole thing.

[Left]

His overall strategy seems to be one of softening the tone and removing some of the hateful elements of the establishment, paving the way for deeper reforms after he's gone.

I sincerely hope that's what he's after.

He can lead the way to change, but he can't just declare it to be so, especially these days when it's more or less considered bad manners to have his vocal opponents beheaded.

They always take out the FUN stuff!

*wants to behead vocal opponents*

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

I understand that on one level, but there's still a monkey in my head shouting "WHY NOT".

A Pope that took say, a sensible stance on birth control would be an incredible force for good. Not being able to do so just seems like the institution will always be a force if not for evil then for the continued shittiness.

Comes down to papal infallibility.

"Papal infallibility" sounds a lot like "digging your heels in and screeching". 

[Junkenstein]

Yes, but the Pope has to do so in Latin.

Because nothing shores up bullshit like a dead language.

[tyrannosaurus vex]

Yes, but the Pope has to do so in Latin.

Because nothing shores up bullshit like a dead language.

I actually liked going to Catholic mass a long time ago, until they started doing it all in English. Completely fucked the mystery and ritual.

[Junkenstein]

His overall strategy seems to be one of softening the tone and removing some of the hateful elements of the establishment, paving the way for deeper reforms after he's gone.

More seriously, if this is the case, fuck this guy.

Here's why: He's essentially betting on others making gradual incremental changes to some future positive effect. At best the given timescales seem to be in centuries so it's a bit of a long shot. If you're smart enough to think that far ahead, you're smart enough to do shit now to a much more immediate positive effect. We talk about the man as a bit of joke, at least I do, but this is still an incredibly influential figurehead with access to VAST wealth and huge cultural impact on the 3rd world.

Instead, I see yet another old man in a strange hat who only really cares about keeping shit ticking over. A speech is a powerful tool and he makes them like clockwork. I just wish he'd say/visibly,effectively do something that was actually as progressive as this guy apparently is. The more I think on it, this possible plan is fucked from the start as hellfire and brimstone always filled more seats than love and peace.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

His overall strategy seems to be one of softening the tone and removing some of the hateful elements of the establishment, paving the way for deeper reforms after he's gone.

More seriously, if this is the case, fuck this guy.

Here's why: He's essentially betting on others making gradual incremental changes to some future positive effect. At best the given timescales seem to be in centuries so it's a bit of a long shot. If you're smart enough to think that far ahead, you're smart enough to do shit now to a much more immediate positive effect. We talk about the man as a bit of joke, at least I do, but this is still an incredibly influential figurehead with access to VAST wealth and huge cultural impact on the 3rd world.

Instead, I see yet another old man in a strange hat who only really cares about keeping shit ticking over. A speech is a powerful tool and he makes them like clockwork. I just wish he'd say/visibly,effectively do something that was actually as progressive as this guy apparently is. The more I think on it, this possible plan is fucked from the start as hellfire and brimstone always filled more seats than love and peace.

Okay.  So some improvement is as bad as no improvement at all.

[Junkenstein]

Yes, but the Pope has to do so in Latin.

Because nothing shores up bullshit like a dead language.

I actually liked going to Catholic mass a long time ago, until they started doing it all in English. Completely fucked the mystery and ritual.

It was one of the reasons I tended to respect Catholic priests more than protestant ones. At least the RC's can get a chant going. COE is the closest existing thing to the living death.

[Junkenstein]

His overall strategy seems to be one of softening the tone and removing some of the hateful elements of the establishment, paving the way for deeper reforms after he's gone.

More seriously, if this is the case, fuck this guy.

Here's why: He's essentially betting on others making gradual incremental changes to some future positive effect. At best the given timescales seem to be in centuries so it's a bit of a long shot. If you're smart enough to think that far ahead, you're smart enough to do shit now to a much more immediate positive effect. We talk about the man as a bit of joke, at least I do, but this is still an incredibly influential figurehead with access to VAST wealth and huge cultural impact on the 3rd world.

Instead, I see yet another old man in a strange hat who only really cares about keeping shit ticking over. A speech is a powerful tool and he makes them like clockwork. I just wish he'd say/visibly,effectively do something that was actually as progressive as this guy apparently is. The more I think on it, this possible plan is fucked from the start as hellfire and brimstone always filled more seats than love and peace.

Okay.  So some improvement is as bad as no improvement at all.

Well no, it's just the apparent some improvement seems to be largely behind the scenes so I can't really assume anything positive.

[Junkenstein]

Like that time some guy in Egypt wiped out all the references to the old gods and forced everyone to become monotheists - soon as he was dead, they erased him from their history.

That's another thing, this is no longer a viable fear. Technology has moved on somewhat. He says something in public, particularly something "radical" which can be largely agreed with by 60%+ of the general population, and he changes the entire game.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Like that time some guy in Egypt wiped out all the references to the old gods and forced everyone to become monotheists - soon as he was dead, they erased him from their history.

That's another thing, this is no longer a viable fear. Technology has moved on somewhat. He says something in public, particularly something "radical" which can be largely agreed with by 60%+ of the general population, and he changes the entire game.

And gets unseated by the college of cardinals, who then install a conservative.

[Junkenstein]

By this point, I figure it's worth a roll of the dice. I'm open to better ideas. And filled with work related bile.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

By this point, I figure it's worth a roll of the dice. I'm open to better ideas. And filled with work related bile.

So, we give a new pope 4 weeks to completely change the Catholic church, and then toss him out and roll the dice?

Okay.  I'm down with it.

[Junkenstein]

IT. COULD! WORK!

                                   /


I've got nothing.

[tyrannosaurus vex]

First of all, he probably doesn't believe that gays or women should be 100% equal to straight males in the eyes of the Church. He is a reformer, but that doesn't mean he's secretly a Marxist or a Feminist or even all that keen on equal rights for LGBTs in general. So even if he did have the power to institute immediate, radical changes in Church doctrine (which for the multiple reasons I stated before, he DOESN'T), he wouldn't do it. But he's also clearly acknowledging that the Church is backward and outdated in many of the ways it goes about its business, if not the fundamental doctrines underpinning the faith. So he is giving the Church a much needed housecleaning to get it a little lighter on its feet so it is capable of moving faster on social change issues - which will, over time, allow the Church to amend its standing on some of its more basic doctrinal stances.

Look, I'm not a fan of the RCC in anything except its sense of aesthetics. I wish everyone would quit being Catholic this afternoon. But just because I disagree with the RCC strongly on what I believe to be fairly sturdy moral grounds, doesn't mean that an abrupt change in its direction wouldn't tear the entire organization to pieces - doubtlessly leaving a majority of its followers still headed in the same direction as they were before, only more determined to never ever change. As much as the Church tells its followers what to believe and how to behave, they also tell the Church what it is allowed to teach. That's the nature of a huge organization. It can lead the way to change, but it must do so incrementally and slowly if it wants to maintain legitimacy in the eyes of its members and influence over their opinions. With an institution the size and age of the RCC, yes, time often moves on the scale of centuries, or at least decades. There are still Catholics who are pissed off about Vatican II, for fuck's sake. You're not going to turn that boat on a dime, no matter how much you or anyone else wishes you could.

I also think it's a little disturbing how everyone wants everything to happen right fucking NOW NOW NOW. Thanks, Internet. Would you be blaming Suffragettes for taking half-measures against patriarchy because all they wanted was the vote? Things take time, no matter what it seems like on the evening news. Especially with things as deeply held as human sexual identity, you can't just say "well we all believe X now." You have to move slowly so the masses end up thinking that they've always believed X.