ELEMENTARY BRAIN WASHING MATERIAL...

[Ambassador KAOS]

Alright, market research results are in for the day and Ambassador Kaos has decided to school you mother fuckers on some core values as it seems many of you either 1, got dropped on the head too many times as an adult or 2, had parents that didn't properly instill a sense of individuality in you and you've since been living your life as a sad excuse for a failed abortion.

Well, no more excuses. Sit down and shut up you moron.

Leadership acronym.  LDRSHIP.


Loyalty    Bear true faith and allegiance to the U.S. Constitution, the Army, your unit, and other soldiers.yourself and those that provide benevolence to you.

Duty    Fulfill your obligations.

Respect    Treat people as they should be treated.  Respect everyone, be they subordinate, enemy or stupid people in large numbers.

Selfless-Service    Put the welfare of the nation, the Army, and your subordinates before your own.

Honor    Live up to all the Army values.  Go research code of the Samarai, that's where stole this shit from anyhow.

Integrity    Do what,Äôs right legally and morally... and do as thou wilt shall be the whole of the law, but don't expect people to praise your integrity you frequently go on changing the rules to suit your whims.

Personal Courage    Face fear, danger, or adversity (Physical or Moral).




...that ain't no white Trash talkin redneck bear fucking hippie bullshit neither.  That's straight from Ft. Benning GA, home of the US infantry, largest corperation in America. 

Say what you will about American administration or having a military to begin with, but realize that your peace protests won't do much VS a bullet fired from any man who leads himself responsibly. 

Further, a killer with respect and values will always be superior to one who acts out in anger.

Learn this shit and free yourself from any idea of instITution; in this manner when your safety nets fall apart you'll still be able to land on your feet.

MENTAL ENDURANCE PEOPLE, MENTAL ENDURANCE...

[Payne]

In the spirit of Cains post:

I just want this fucking bullshit over with so we can concentrate on getting some decent writing going.  BIP has hardly been busy for a few weeks and while I'm partly to blame (for not being here and not cracking down on writing my larger idea), this shit isn't helping either.

I'm not going to say you will do something and force it.  But seriously, shut the fuck up.  Especially you, AKK as you know what the reaction will be now.  Pull some quality writing (ranting, poetry, prose, whatever) out of your arse and stick to that for a while, if you truly want to be here for any benign reason.

The rest of you, just ignore him.  He's attention whoring and you are all falling for it.  Don't respond to his bullshit unless its actually of some worth and merit.  Come on, Pavlov's Dog here.  You know the drill.

I will offer some feedback on this post.

This doesn't seem very original within this forum, but thats O.K. little is it seems.

Loyalty to yourself is all well and good, but even those who "provide benevolence" want something from you, and you can never be entirely sure of their motives. Perhaps amend to say only yourself, in this world its the only thing you rely on.

Your obligations should only be set by yourself. Any choice you make will result in consequences, and duty either is a cause of your choice or an effect of any given choice. In this forum, one of the main trains of thought (with a large consensus at least) is in the freedom for you to choose.

Respect for others is a fine ideal, but this ultimately relates to the first point. Stark perhaps, but what is respect without loyalty? The same with self-less service.

If this Infantry mantra is taken directly from code of the samurai, why not post relevant excerpts from that for discussion?

Integrity means nothing really. Integrity is a view of you  held by someone else. Your personal view of yourself is again filed under Loyalty.

Im no anti-militarist, don't misunderstand me. I Just feel that the way the military is currently run (in both our countries) is one of the larger cogs in the nebulous entity we call 'The Machine'. It may well be the largest corporation, as you put it, in America, but is it the most successful? That is the important question to ask.

Afterword: Yes this is de-construction of your post, but it is in no way personally aimed at you AKK. I feel that if you work on this, with perhaps other viewpoints other than my own admittedly naive stand, you may well be able to rebuild into something more robust.




Good luck with this.

[Ambassador KAOS]

In the spirit of Cains post:




If this Infantry mantra is taken directly from code of the samurai, why not post relevant excerpts from that for discussion?

You make several points that indicate you have a grasp on the material.  This is good and I appreciate that.  I assure you didn't mis those things but when writing a laymen document I think it's best to "keep it simple stupid".

As for posting samarai code, I'd considered it, but...

I was never a samarai, just researching it wouldn't make me feel qualified to teach it and  I don't know that it's even possible to still go through the proper channels to become one. 

I did do the US army thing however, and thus feel I have a minor ammount of credit to back up what I am talking about as I have not only understood the material, but also integrated it and lived it.

Further, the material was stolen, like all modern interpretations of ideals from history, but I feel that the chivalric code is lame in comparison to the samarai code.

Too many silly rules that get in the way of the underlying discipline.

[Payne]

But thats the point AKK, you wouldn't be teaching us the samurai code, you would be using it to back up your claim as being the source of this mantra. I don'y doubt the validity of that statement, but I do feel that in the interest of a full discussion, we need access to the material you base this on.

It underlines your point, it describes your view better, for more people, it points the way to where you are coming from.

Its why, in short, I avoid posting threads like this myself, 'cause I'm too lazy to do the transcribing. I leave that kind of stuff to Cain and read his stuff.

What do you think of the points I made? This is after all supposed to be a debate.

Oh one more thing, its only my personal view that you should include relevant excerpts from this code, due to my interest in history. You shouls always quote your sources etc. etc. and assorted bullshit.

Edit: Oh yeah, and I wanted to say that you picked out the first line I wrote in my post. I wrote the rest of it around that line. Maybe it showed up too clearly, as it was more my first reaction on reading your post.

[Ambassador KAOS]

keywords: bushido, honor, honour, 7 virtues

google and wikipedia.

thousands of articles on the subject.

My research stems back to some old tome translations from an extensive collection on Japanese history and culture that I no longer have access to as I was like 11 then, prime age for fascination with ninjas and samarai.

Kinda wish I still had those books because I'd probably get a lot more out of them these days.

Citing sources isn't really all much my thing for 3 reasons:

1) I read too much shit to remember where it all comes from and,

2) Good artists borrow, great artists steal.  Some asshole was quoted saying that once, but it's not like I remember who.

3)There is nothing new under the sun.  You might even quote something and some other asshole is likely to come along and pee in your cheerios by saying, "well actually, the REAL origin is..."

and detract from the point you are making.

This sarcastic asshole can be found here:

click me

[Payne]

www.justfuckinggoogleit.com is a common answer in these here parts, I understand what you mean.

Now back to the OP, what do you think of the suggestions I made?

[LMNO]

Alright, market research results are in for the day and Ambassador Kaos has decided to school you mother fuckers on some core values as it seems many of you either 1, got dropped on the head too many times as an adult or 2, had parents that didn't properly instill a sense of individuality in you and you've since been living your life as a sad excuse for a failed abortion.

Well, no more excuses. Sit down and shut up you moron.

Is that supposed to be a drill instructor?  More on this later.

Leadership acronym.  LDRSHIP.


Loyalty    Bear true faith and allegiance to the U.S. Constitution, the Army, your unit, and other soldiers.yourself and those that provide benevolence to you.

Please define ,Äútrue faith,Äù and ,Äúbenevolence,Äù as it pertains to human social interaction.  ,ÄúTrue faith,Äù seems to imply unquestioning belief in the un-provable, which runs into problems, as ,Äúbenevolence,Äù appears to be a subjective judgment that varies over time.

Duty    Fulfill your obligations.

Please define ,Äúobligations,Äù as it pertains to both the short-term, and the long-term, as well as the internal versus the external.

Respect    Treat people as they should be treated.  Respect everyone, be they subordinate, enemy or stupid people in large numbers.

Please contrast this (in particular, the italicized) with the opening salvo (I told you I,Äôd get back to it), as well as your previous actions on this board.  Also, please explain why unquestioning respect is deserved in all cases.

Selfless-Service    Put the welfare of the nation, the Army, and your subordinates before your own.

Please define ,Äúsubordinates,Äù, and relate it to the Hagbard Celine SNAFU principle.

Honor    Live up to all the Army values.  Go research code of the Samarai, that's where stole this shit from anyhow.

Please explain why this is important.

Integrity    Do what,Äôs right legally and morally... and do as thou wilt shall be the whole of the law, but don't expect people to praise your integrity you frequently go on changing the rules to suit your whims.

Please compare and contrast this with your statement about Obligations.

Personal Courage    Face fear, danger, or adversity (Physical or Moral).

Please explain the best manner in which to ,Äúface,Äù such things.

Further, a killer with respect and values will always be superior to one who acts out in anger.

Please explain how subjective (and usually self-positive) terms such as ,Äúrespect,Äù and ,Äúvalues,Äù makes one human superior to the other.  For example, the SS had their own definitions of respect and values, and they lived up to them fully.  Does that make them superior to others?

[Ambassador KAOS]

Again, I find them to be interperative, which is good because it shows you got the message, but I still wanted to go with the keep it simple stupid approach.

This really should be elementary material and people who need to revisit it need to: "Go sit in the corner dumb ass" as per that pic roger is fond of.

I think also, the word: "rely" as in rely on is a poor choice in wording.  The goal of the excersize is to remove reliances on outside institutions. and thus disagree there.  You are correct that you cannot know the motives of others, but so long as they are providing benevolence to you, then their motives are plus not minus in your subjectivity by definition.  

This sense of loyalty as I refered to it (to clear this up) does not extend past the point of lack of benevolence, if something is a poison to your being, whether it be something outside you or even your own actions, then you need to stop doing it.

I also have to disagree that integrity means nothing.  It is maintaining the wisdom to do the right thing.

Saying on paper "I will not rape infants" and then doing it out of compulsion could be considered a lack of integrity.  Possessing the wisdom when to change the rules and how, is also part of integrity.

I think you're confusing the idea that outside perception is integrity for the concept of honor.

Honor is commonly confused as reputation, but it just as interperative as the abstract concept of love and similarly exists with or without the consent of other bystandards.

As far as obligations only being set by yourself, this is a good point, but it draws on the argument of free will VS determinism.  I agree that people should decide their own level of involvement, but it's also true that everybody is a slave to someone or something, tangible or not, that is beyond their control, even if it is merely to their own will or lack thereof.

I agree in that people need to be responsible for the obligations they pick for themselves and ignore outside restrictions set upon them by societal standards, but again, this is subjective interperetation, and even if I agree with it, it's beyond the scope.

[Ambassador KAOS]

Alright, market research results are in for the day and Ambassador Kaos has decided to school you mother fuckers on some core values as it seems many of you either 1, got dropped on the head too many times as an adult or 2, had parents that didn't properly instill a sense of individuality in you and you've since been living your life as a sad excuse for a failed abortion.

Well, no more excuses. Sit down and shut up you moron.

Is that supposed to be a drill instructor?  More on this later.

Leadership acronym.  LDRSHIP.


Loyalty    Bear true faith and allegiance to the U.S. Constitution, the Army, your unit, and other soldiers.yourself and those that provide benevolence to you.

Please define ,Äútrue faith,Äù and ,Äúbenevolence,Äù as it pertains to human social interaction.  ,ÄúTrue faith,Äù seems to imply unquestioning belief in the un-provable, which runs into problems, as ,Äúbenevolence,Äù appears to be a subjective judgment that varies over time.

Duty    Fulfill your obligations.

Please define ,Äúobligations,Äù as it pertains to both the short-term, and the long-term, as well as the internal versus the external.

Respect    Treat people as they should be treated.  Respect everyone, be they subordinate, enemy or stupid people in large numbers.

Please contrast this (in particular, the italicized) with the opening salvo (I told you I,Äôd get back to it), as well as your previous actions on this board.  Also, please explain why unquestioning respect is deserved in all cases.

Selfless-Service    Put the welfare of the nation, the Army, and your subordinates before your own.

Please define ,Äúsubordinates,Äù, and relate it to the Hagbard Celine SNAFU principle.

Honor    Live up to all the Army values.  Go research code of the Samarai, that's where stole this shit from anyhow.

Please explain why this is important.

Integrity    Do what,Äôs right legally and morally... and do as thou wilt shall be the whole of the law, but don't expect people to praise your integrity you frequently go on changing the rules to suit your whims.

Please compare and contrast this with your statement about Obligations.

Personal Courage    Face fear, danger, or adversity (Physical or Moral).

Please explain the best manner in which to ,Äúface,Äù such things.

Further, a killer with respect and values will always be superior to one who acts out in anger.

Please explain how subjective (and usually self-positive) terms such as ,Äúrespect,Äù and ,Äúvalues,Äù makes one human superior to the other.  For example, the SS had their own definitions of respect and values, and they lived up to them fully.  Does that make them superior to others?

These questions all have subjective answers and you need to answer them for yourself (I will not be pulled in by such maddness). 

What works for me and is beneficial in my life may well prove to be poison to your existence.

This is why humans cannot get along nor is there any universal grid to subscribe to beyond what we all percieve as consensus reality.

How I feel and interperet the message is beyond the scope of what I had intended to show here.

I am reading that link now though, pretty interesting so far, I'll get back to you on my thoughts on it.

[LMNO]

I want your subjective answers.  Why can't you see that?

It is possible to talk objectively about subjective things, after all.

I mean, one of the points of the BIP (and much of RAW) is that your entire existence is in some way subjective.


Is this how it's gonna be every time I ask questions about your posts?

[AFK]

You make some good points.  So are you saying these are the elements of leadership?  If so you are missing the intangibles.  The je ne sais quois that makes some people leaders, and others, well, who try to hard.  You have it or you don't in my estimation.  I think you could find someone who fulfills your acronym but still is a failed leader because of a lack of the leadership intangible quality.  A combination of personality traits and aspects that combine for leadership ability.  But, that's just my experience.  

[LMNO]

What works for me and is beneficial in my life may well prove to be poison to your existence.

Trust me, there is literally nothing you can say on a message board that will "poison my existence."  You may not have intened it that way, but that is the height of arrogance.

This is why humans cannot get along nor is there any universal grid to subscribe to beyond what we all percieve as consensus reality.

First off, your use of the word "nor" completely screws the syntax.
Second, these appear to be two separate thoughts. 
Third, are you saying that because people have different beliefs that can't get along? 
Fourth, consensus reality is not a universal grid, it's an extremely imperfect compromise.

How I feel and interperet the message is beyond the scope of what I had intended to show here.

Why?  Are you scared to reveal your intellectual process?

[Payne]

~~~I use the word rely in the context of only being able to rely on yourself. This is the ultimate in removing reliances on outside institutions. I still don't really know what you mean by benevolence, but by rewarding anyone who helps you with loyalty, only to have them use that against in same way (Checkers=/=Chess) would strike me as not only stupid, but possibly fatal in the context in which this is placed (a mantra directly sourced from warrior codes).

As an example I will use the  Vietnamese during the war there that would lead U.S. patrols into ambushes, while "guiding" them through hostile territory. These Vietnamese were being benevolent to the U.S. Army, but were in fact brutally betraying them.

My belief is that my integrety is directly linked to my choices, as I only make choices that will benefit me, which fits into my own "code if you will" then I always have Integrity. Integrity is, in essance, consistancy. I will let that point go however, what the problem is is the use of the word "right". What is "right" and "wrong" defined by?

Integrity (consistancy) is a virtue that others see in individuals. It is not really something we ever see in ourselves, because we always do what we believe is right. The NAZIs did not believe they were evil after all.

Honour is very much, as you say, based on reputation, but it is something that we use to measure ourselves. I made no mention of honour in my first post, because I didn't feel it neccesary to do so. Honour is again based on a personal "code". If you have Honour, as in something that others perceive in you, then they are measuring you against their own "codes", not yours. Do you really care what others think about you?

The philosophy that I subscribe to is that I am enslaved. By myself. By my possessions and the flotsam and jetsam of life. But to no one else. I will look out for friends and family yes, but only when it will benefit me. Very stark yet again, but I count love as a benefit too, so it's not so bad. I also totally believe that nothing is predetermined. Therefore any obligations or duties are self imposed through my choices.

I think a lot of this boils down more succintly into either "think for yourself, schmuck!" or "kill yourself, fuck the body", but thats maybe just me.

[Ambassador KAOS]

I want your subjective answers.  Why can't you see that?

It is possible to talk objectively about subjective things, after all.

I mean, one of the points of the BIP (and much of RAW) is that your entire existence is in some way subjective.


Is this how it's gonna be every time I ask questions about your posts?

Oh, and here I thought you were joining the fray of dissecting this thing VS curiosity of where I stand on shit.

Read that article BTW, reminds me a lot of my research on hume's fork.

I'd say in reference to the term "damned thing" it's whatever you want to call it, and as long as those who you are communicating it to get a sufficient estimation of what you are communicating, then it really doesn't matter what it's called.  Shakespeare. "A rose by any other name..."

Where I stand on subjective issues is completely transitory based on indiviual circumstance with history factoring in at a low percentage but increasing exponentially with repeated patterns.

Hypothetical Example:

I meet a man on the street, he is grumpy and practically shoves me out of the way.  "must be having a bad day"

Later I meet that man on the bus.  I decide sit next to him because he is mumbling to himself grumpilly as I'd rather not deal with his problem.
I meet him again later, this time it is at the bagel shop, he is preparing my sandwhich, is curt, presents me with a poor quality product and manages to pull of one or two social faux paux's.  "must be he's going through a rough patch"

I see him later at a bar.  I decide not to disturb him because my opinion of him is that he is a bordeline suck human being.  Later he gets hammered and starts some trouble with me and my friends who are in the mdst of an otherwise good time, and gets thrown out of the bar.
"This man is a waste of skin"
I avoid the bagel shop because I'd rather pay for shitty service and product but I eventually wander back because I forgot I was pissed off at him.

He emphatically appollogizes and tells me big sob story.
"this man has made many poor choices that have led him to a shitty end.  I'm not currently pissed at him, but I really don't want to waste my efforts on a belligerant drunkard."

I see the man again, this time he is coming out of an AA meeting.  "good for him, at least he's pretending to make an attempt."

I see the man again, he does a service for me that I am happy with, my opinion increases proportionately...

this system continues throughout the duration of me interacting with a human.  There are infinite variables and much of it also comes from my own subjectivity too.  

Assume I was already pissed about something else when this asshole started a fight while he was drunk... it likely would have taken a much longer time for his bad mojo to bleed off.

So you see, I can't commit to one set pattern of doing things especially since I make it a habbit to undermine my own bullshit in search for newer ground to cover.

How others evaluate my systems are also subjective to there patterns.  I've met people who swore I was kind and gentle and others who swear I'm hot headed and violent.  I suppose it's all in context and viewpoint.

I have some tendancies, but even then, they are just tendancies, meaning they are prone to falling short of being a standard.  EX:  genius IQ man in the field of electricity takes his cell phone to the kiosk and says, it doesn't work.  The man opens the phone, flips the battery around so the poles are in the correct location and hands it back to the man who just finished wiring a hotel earlier that day.

This also brings up another point about how people immeadiately drop to teh lowes common denominator when you are providing a service for them, askk anyone in service or sales and I'm certain that they'll concur that most people are to lazy to use their brains when being waited on.

I do it too, and so does everyone else... ever pull up to the drive thru and not know what you wanted to order?

[Payne]

I dont think that particularly answers the question posed. A dissection, as you call it, of your original post requires us to be able to put it in a framework we understand. It requires subjective material from you.

We do not need a list that you say will make us strong, like the good ol' infantry. What we want is what this mantra means to personally. How you apply it. And I don't mean necessarily in your relation with a fictional grumpy man.

How exactly would you apply your wisdom to know when the time had come to change the rules, whilst still remaining honourable and loyal and all that other stuff?

It sounds that this could mean absolutely anything you want it to, which is not very useful.

But if you could, subjectively, explain to us how this works for you, maybe it will become clearer.

As LMNO has said, the keystone of the BIP and RAW is subjectivity. That is our paint and canvas. Now make us a masterpiece!