Yet another effort, gentleman, if we are to become Discordians!

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Ah.

Your initial post makes sense, then. 

How so?

[LMNO]

If the podcasts are any indication, you seem to be the type of Discordian that talks about Eris and the glorious delightful chaos of the pinealglandfnord23.


Which leads to clarity regarding you post about evolution and Eris.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

If the podcasts are any indication, you seem to be the type of Discordian that talks about Eris and the glorious delightful chaos of the pinealglandfnord23.


Which leads to clarity regarding you post about evolution and Eris.

Sometimes, when its useful.

[Cramulus]

Hi Ratatosk! I remember you from 23ae!

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Hi Ratatosk! I remember you from 23ae!

Ah yes, though my workings with Eris have led me from posting much recently... that, I think may change.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

What?  The pastafarians are worse than the Myspace Discordians, and most of them, literally, are 12 years old.

Our Lady of Discord stands and from one hand she releases every species, born through surviving the chaotic whim of nature; from the other she draws in every species as it falls to chaos and becomes extinct.

Evolution means survival of the fittest Children of Chaos.

The Pastafarians and the MySpace Discordians... INRI.

If we can be warmed by that fire, shall we deny the fuel?


Ratatosk, Squirrel of Discord
Chatterer of the Words of Eris
Muncher of The ChaoAcorn
POEE of The Great Googlie Mooglie Cabal

*scratches head*


This is a really weird metaphore for evolution.

Also, it seems you are talking about it in a social context. Mixed metaphores then. Biological evolution cannot be equated with social change. Its not only stupid, its immoral, the kind of thing that spawns Nazi science.

And social darwinism is a bolus of fecal matter.


Still, I like some of it. You can do better. Keep it up.

Evolution, rather "Survival of the Fittest", works because of Chaos. If the past several million years had been an ordered sort of environment, then the 'not fittest' would have had no disadvantage. If there hadn't been drastic, immediate and chaotic changes, then there would have been no need to evolve. Thus through Chaos (symbolized by Eris) do all species come into existence. However, it is that same Chaos that wipes out entire species. It is a world thrust into Chaos that destroys entire lines of DNA. Thus through Chaos (symbolized by Eris) do all species eventually die out and become extinct.

In a culture that is not chaotic, that is not challenged by absurdity, there is no reason for a subculture... or subcultures or countercultures. It is through Chaos that some idiots believed that they should teach Creationism and thus it is through Chaos that someone was inspired to write an epistle of the FSM and in this the Pastafarians were born. Likewise for the dadaists, Discordians, Sub Geniuses, Goths etc etc etc each exist (or existed) because there was chaotic pressure placed on the culture, spawning a subculture (which fit a niche). In Chaos each of these will grow into something more, or devolve into extinction.

I do not say "Wipe out the Pastafarian, for he is less than us." I do not say "Gas the Goth, for she is less than us."

I say, run everyone through the fire of Action, Discordian, Pastafarian, Goth and SubGenius. Allow each to be tested in the purifying flame of Actually Doing Something. Do not sneer at the 12 year old ZOMG FSM! or the 23 year old ZOMG FNORD! In the action each will have their own tests, and the test will purify them... whats left may be Iron, Gold or nothing more than dross.

From my experience, every Golden Apple has a Golden worm hiding in it somewhere... its just a matter of burning away the crap.

Igne Natura Renovatur Integra

[LMNO]

I liked that post.

One word of caution... BMW is a biologist, and takes evolution fairly seriously, and fairly literally, too.  I have noticed.  Sometimes.  Far be it from me to put words in his mouth, of course.


Of course.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

I liked that post.

One word of caution... BMW is a biologist, and takes evolution fairly seriously, and fairly literally, too.  I have noticed.  Sometimes.  Far be it from me to put words in his mouth, of course.


Of course.

I'll be interested in BMW's opinion on my metaphor then... I'd also be interested in a test drive as I currently have an Eagle and hear that BMW's are much nicer.

[B_M_W]

I liked that post.

One word of caution... BMW is a biologist, and takes evolution fairly seriously, and fairly literally, too.  I have noticed.  Sometimes.  Far be it from me to put words in his mouth, of course.


Of course.

Its true. I'm gonna read through and critique later tonight, though no worries, I like your style Rat.  For the moment, I am gonna ride home from work and try to beat the huge storm heading my direction.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Its true. I'm gonna read through and critique later tonight, though no worries, I like your style Rat.  For the moment, I am gonna ride home from work and try to beat the huge storm heading my direction.

Well, hell.. I take style over substance any day!

[B_M_W]

Evolution, rather "Survival of the Fittest", works because of Chaos. If the past several million years had been an ordered sort of environment, then the 'not fittest' would have had no disadvantage. If there hadn't been drastic, immediate and chaotic changes, then there would have been no need to evolve. Thus through Chaos (symbolized by Eris) do all species come into existence. However, it is that same Chaos that wipes out entire species. It is a world thrust into Chaos that destroys entire lines of DNA. Thus through Chaos (symbolized by Eris) do all species eventually die out and become extinct.

The causes for evolution are two: by natural selection (accumulation of traits by inducing greater probability of survival) and genetic drift. Incidentally, when real biologists ( and not these intelligent design wannabes) talk about evolutionary debate, this is the big one. What percent of evolution is caused by drift, and what percent by natural selection? No one is really sure, because its such a slow process. On the otherhand, there are arguements for a process called punctuated equilibrium, where evolution over long periods is generally slow, until some sort of large scale change occurs, and there is a very fast period of evolutionary change. Extinction events seem to be followed by such events. Again, remember this is still on a million year scale. I believe that model would follow closest with your origina assumption. However, you use the word chaos, by which I believe you mean random events. Drift would certainly be a process such as that, but natural selection is most definatly not ruled by chance. Thats a mistake many people make when looking at evolution. For those traits related to greater survival, they will tend to be conserved, whereas those which are negative will not, simply by the process that those that are not fit will not survive to reproduce, and those that are will be the once most likely to reproduce. Like I said, a non random process. Another mistake that is often made is where evolution occurs, at the population and metapopulation level. Genetically speaking, individuals do not evolve (unless you are talking bacterium and horisonal gene transfer, but lets leave that alone). Only a population changes over time, in the overal genetic composition of its individuals accross generations.

Now, because I got off on a tangent, let me address your "coming into existance" line. To me, this speaks of the believe that species spontaineously come about. In truth, the evolution of a new species is nothing more than the splitting of one into two or more. When these two no longer breed for behavioral or environmental reasons, or cannot due to genetic variance, they are considered two species. Neither is actually "new". I think too many people are under the impression that species evolution comes about by abrupt mutation, as in the "chimp becomes a human" idea. Which is of course not true. Species evolution comes about by millions of years of genetic accumulation of traits. What seems so much obvious differences between two sister species started out with a subtle splitting of their common ansestor. It prolly wasn't so obvious at first.

Now for the "extinction" line. Extinction could be attributed to one of two phenomena, either by catastrophe, or by ecological exclusion. The first is very simple, it brings to mind the impact extinction of the Cretaceous, or the great extinction at the end of the Cambrium. Both were likey caused by disruptive catastrophe, likely what you reffer to as chaos in extinction. The second is a complex and non-random process whereas competition and predation comes into play. Its an ecological process, and generally a very slow one. Ecology is a whole other topic, and I really don't have time to go into its complexity here.

And, obviously not all species go extinct. Otherwise Life would not be on this planet today. Its a continuous chain stretching back to the originating ansestral organisms, possibly like the archea of today, probably much simpler.

If you want to compair that to cultural evolution, go ahead, just realize its a terrible mixed metaphor from my perspective. Its like comparing apples and oranges, the processes are completly different, the only similarity being that things change.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Thanks for the viewpoint BMW, I suppose like the rest of the stuff I write, this is only true in some sense 

I didn't mean it as a full explanation of the entire process of evolution, but perhaps I should rework it before adding it to any of my writings

[SBCU]

Thanks for the viewpoint BMW, I suppose like the rest of the stuff I write, this is only true in some sense 

I didn't mean it as a full explanation of the entire process of evolution, but perhaps I should rework it before adding it to any of my writings

I find it quite interesting that in your writings actually everything and everybody is right, as long as they live up to the formula of chaos, which will come naturally. The teachings of Discordia tell us that the Grey man made the order, not that the order was a result of ordering the chaos. The order is an illusion that needs to be shown as an illusion by Discordians. Like the kings clothes, our dear people are walking around in their order. As long as everybody is telling each other how wonderful their orderly clothes are, there will be order. Then it doesn't matter if the clothes are covered with anarchy, liberal, or even Discordian prints, as long as people have their order in their mind, there is no fun for Eris.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

I find it quite interesting that in your writings actually everything and everybody is right, as long as they live up to the formula of chaos, which will come naturally. The teachings of Discordia tell us that the Grey man made the order, not that the order was a result of ordering the chaos. The order is an illusion that needs to be shown as an illusion by Discordians. Like the kings clothes, our dear people are walking around in their order. As long as everybody is telling each other how wonderful their orderly clothes are, there will be order. Then it doesn't matter if the clothes are covered with anarchy, liberal, or even Discordian prints, as long as people have their order in their mind, there is no fun for Eris.

I find it interesting that you interpreted my statements in such a way.
actually everything and everybody is right, as long as they live up to the formula of chaos, which will come naturally.

Maybe. I'm not sure that I said anywhere that "everybody is right", nor am I at all sure I think "everybody is right", in fact I'm not even sure what they're supposedly right about...

The teachings of Discordia tell us that the Grey man made the order, not that the order was a result of ordering the chaos. The order is an illusion that needs to be shown as an illusion by Discordians.

The teachings of Discordia tell us that we shouldn't believe the teachings of Discordia. However, if we were to examine the PD as useful, then consider the following:

1. I don't think Grey man made the Order. From my reading of the PD, the Greyfaced Hunchbrain looked around, saw order and decided that the Whole Universe was ordered. He didn't invent, create or otherwise make order... he simply saw order and ignored chaos (something that some Discordians do in reverse).

B. Order and Chaos can be described as two sides of the Sacred Chao, existing in a constant balance of "active wobbling". That is, an act of discord, will be balanced by an act of order, while an act of order will be balanced by an act of chaos. If order is not balanced, or if chaos is not balanced then the Chao tips and tipping a Chao isn't nearly as fun as rednecks make it out to be.

III. The order is an illusion that needs to be shown as an illusion by Discordians Don't fall under the Eristic Delusion. Neither Order nor Chaos are necessarily illusion... and both Order and Chaos may well be illusion... if you cut open a Golden apple, you'll usually find a pentagon inside.  Order and Chaos can be considered as games we can play, they're ways to arrange the pebbles of Starbuck. We can see them as points on a pentagram, or points on a pentagon, or just a bunch of busted rock scattered about the ground. To presume that there is One True view of reality (either Chaos OR Order) then we fall to Aristotle and his asinine two-valued logic trap.

Four -  People with order in their mind tend to be great fun for Eris and all of her Discordian acolytes. If everyone had nothing but Chaos in the brain, then acts of Discord would provide no primer for thought. Without the Greyface, there appears no Hodge to match our Podge.

• Every Man Woman and Child is a Pope of the Erisian Movement (even the Greyfaced Hunchbrains). Every Man, Woman and Child plays on the Hodge side, the Podge side, both sides or sits in the middle like a confused chipmunk.

Ratatosk, Squirrel of Discord
Muncher of the ChaoAcorn
Chatterer of the Words of Eris
POEE of the Great Googlie Mooglie Cabal

[Lies]

I find it quite interesting that in your writings actually everything and everybody is right, as long as they live up to the formula of chaos, which will come naturally. The teachings of Discordia tell us that the Grey man made the order, not that the order was a result of ordering the chaos. The order is an illusion that needs to be shown as an illusion by Discordians. Like the kings clothes, our dear people are walking around in their order. As long as everybody is telling each other how wonderful their orderly clothes are, there will be order. Then it doesn't matter if the clothes are covered with anarchy, liberal, or even Discordian prints, as long as people have their order in their mind, there is no fun for Eris.

I find it interesting that you interpreted my statements in such a way.
actually everything and everybody is right, as long as they live up to the formula of chaos, which will come naturally.

Maybe. I'm not sure that I said anywhere that "everybody is right", nor am I at all sure I think "everybody is right", in fact I'm not even sure what they're supposedly right about...

The teachings of Discordia tell us that the Grey man made the order, not that the order was a result of ordering the chaos. The order is an illusion that needs to be shown as an illusion by Discordians.

The teachings of Discordia tell us that we shouldn't believe the teachings of Discordia. However, if we were to examine the PD as useful, then consider the following:

1. I don't think Grey man made the Order. From my reading of the PD, the Greyfaced Hunchbrain looked around, saw order and decided that the Whole Universe was ordered. He didn't invent, create or otherwise make order... he simply saw order and ignored chaos (something that some Discordians do in reverse).

B. Order and Chaos can be described as two sides of the Sacred Chao, existing in a constant balance of "active wobbling". That is, an act of discord, will be balanced by an act of order, while an act of order will be balanced by an act of chaos. If order is not balanced, or if chaos is not balanced then the Chao tips and tipping a Chao isn't nearly as fun as rednecks make it out to be.

III. The order is an illusion that needs to be shown as an illusion by Discordians Don't fall under the Eristic Delusion. Neither Order nor Chaos are necessarily illusion... and both Order and Chaos may well be illusion... if you cut open a Golden apple, you'll usually find a pentagon inside.  Order and Chaos can be considered as games we can play, they're ways to arrange the pebbles of Starbuck. We can see them as points on a pentagram, or points on a pentagon, or just a bunch of busted rock scattered about the ground. To presume that there is One True view of reality (either Chaos OR Order) then we fall to Aristotle and his asinine two-valued logic trap.

Four -  People with order in their mind tend to be great fun for Eris and all of her Discordian acolytes. If everyone had nothing but Chaos in the brain, then acts of Discord would provide no primer for thought. Without the Greyface, there appears no Hodge to match our Podge.

• Every Man Woman and Child is a Pope of the Erisian Movement (even the Greyfaced Hunchbrains). Every Man, Woman and Child plays on the Hodge side, the Podge side, both sides or sits in the middle like a confused chipmunk.

Ratatosk, Squirrel of Discord
Muncher of the ChaoAcorn
Chatterer of the Words of Eris
POEE of the Great Googlie Mooglie Cabal

Fuck yeah.