Stirring the Shit

[AFK]

Now, in the material covered by the BIP project so far, we have focused on the idea that the bars in our prison are often self-imposed illusions.  My question for the rest of the people here is this: Do you think that there are bars in the BIP that are not self-imposed?  I don't mean laws of nature/physics, but illusions that are set up and actively maintained by (at the risk of sounding ridiculous) "Them" ?  And if so, does it amount to the same thing anyway, since even if 'They' get you to believe a lie, it's still you imposing it on yourself?

I think I can sum it up in two words.

ambition and motivation

Someone without sufficient ambition and motivation will conclude, in their minds, that there are bars that have been imposed on them by others.  It's kind of like that quote I used in my contribution to the BIP.  "A conclusion is simply where you stopped thinking."  I say this pertains to your question.  Someone who has concluded that there is an obstace before them that they have no control over has stopped thinking.  

Of course, one could argue that you have to consider nature, human nature, in this equation.  I know you want to take it out but there will be cases where someone perhaps doesn't have the mental capacity, for whatever reason, to properly consider the bars and what they mean, let alone who fucking made them in the first place.  

[LMNO]

You're dipping your toe into Natural Stupidity, there.

If you can tell, the bottom of that pond is Eugenics.


Just a warning.

[Jenne]

RWHN...your answer makes sense, but it's rather isolationist and makes no sense to me in terms of real-life experience...can you elaborate on the

Someone without sufficient ambition and motivation will conclude, in their minds, that there are bars that have been imposed on them by others.

part?

[AFK]

You're dipping your toe into Natural Stupidity, there.

If you can tell, the bottom of that pond is Eugenics.


Just a warning.

Yeah for people who are concerned enough about it that they think they have to come up with an "Ultimate Solution."  Another option, is to just ignore them and keep on walking.  I'm just making an observation.  I'm not saying we have to fix everyone. 

[LMNO]

RWHN...your answer makes sense, but it's rather isolationist and makes no sense to me in terms of real-life experience...can you elaborate on the

Someone without sufficient ambition and motivation will conclude, in their minds, that there are bars that have been imposed on them by others.

part?

Sure, it's like most cabbages:  They see things the way they see them, it's not an option to question them.

The bars have always been the bars, they have no option but to obey.

[Jenne]

RWHN...your answer makes sense, but it's rather isolationist and makes no sense to me in terms of real-life experience...can you elaborate on the

Someone without sufficient ambition and motivation will conclude, in their minds, that there are bars that have been imposed on them by others.

part?

Sure, it's like most cabbages:  They see things the way they see them, it's not an option to question them.

The bars have always been the bars, they have no option but to obey.

So it's ambition and motivation that precludes them from seeing them as their own bars and not placed there by others?

Naw.  I disagree fundamentally based on the human social experience.

[LMNO]

Wait... Rephrase that.  Right now, I can't make heads or tails of it.

[Jenne]

The OP was about bars placed in our individual BIPs by Others, an unnamed "They"...

So, RWHN responded with saying it's only those lacking in motivation and ambition that would see it this way.

I said, in so many words, bullshit, because that thinking is way too isolationist for the human condition as I see it.  We are not islands, so discounting others' direct influences on the BIP seems disingenuous (my fave word, that).

[AFK]

RWHN...your answer makes sense, but it's rather isolationist and makes no sense to me in terms of real-life experience...can you elaborate on the

Someone without sufficient ambition and motivation will conclude, in their minds, that there are bars that have been imposed on them by others.

part?

Sure, the discussions as I've read them have talked about how a bar that someone thinks is imiposed by someone else, in a way, really isn't because they are simply accepting on face value that it was someone else that did it.  They've stopped thinking at this conclusion.  With more ambition and motivation, perhaps they would examine the bar more in their mind and discover, "Well, shit.  If I just do x instead of all of this y and z shit I've been told about, then I could get around this.  This bar is self-imposed after all.

[Jenne]

RWHN...your answer makes sense, but it's rather isolationist and makes no sense to me in terms of real-life experience...can you elaborate on the

Someone without sufficient ambition and motivation will conclude, in their minds, that there are bars that have been imposed on them by others.

part?

Sure, the discussions as I've read them have talked about how a bar that someone thinks is imiposed by someone else, in a way, really isn't because they are simply accepting on face value that it was someone else that did it.  They've stopped thinking at this conclusion.  With more ambition and motivation, perhaps they would examine the bar more in their mind and discover, "Well, shit.  If I just do x instead of all of this y and z shit I've been told about, then I could get around this.  This bar is self-imposed after all.

While that makes sense, I'm not sure if that aptly explains the process for me.  Childhood and upbringing is much more rigorous and has many more repercussions than that.  Defeating said bars are difficult in the extreme, as they shape your movements, your tastes and dislikes, your predilictions in most ways, actually.

[AFK]

The OP was about bars placed in our individual BIPs by Others, an unnamed "They"...

So, RWHN responded with saying it's only those lacking in motivation and ambition that would see it this way.

I said, in so many words, bullshit, because that thinking is way too isolationist for the human condition as I see it.  We are not islands, so discounting others' direct influences on the BIP seems disingenuous (my fave word, that).

I think I need to clarify a bit.  When I say ambition and motivation I'm thinking of those as elements.  In other words, I'm not talking solely about people with no motivation and ambition.  Someone could have quite a bit of ambition and motivation in many aspects of their life.  But, in the event of contemplating a particular bar in their life, they've concluded that it's "they" that have made it so.  But, if they employed more motivation to contemplate this particular bar they might find as I illustrated in a previous post, that it was self-imposed.  does that make sense?  In other words, what I'm saying, is that EVERYONE has the potential to fall down in the categories of ambition and motivation.  Just like, anyone who becomes enlightened to the BIP, can fall back into the trappings of oblivion.  

[LMNO]

I'm getting a feeling you're both saying the same thing.

Jenne, you seem to be saying the social and parental blocks that are set up are hard to get around.

RWHN says than people without ambition and motivation (which may be loaded terms) see those blocks as permanent and externally imposed.

I think that's pretty much the same thing.

[AFK]

RWHN...your answer makes sense, but it's rather isolationist and makes no sense to me in terms of real-life experience...can you elaborate on the

Someone without sufficient ambition and motivation will conclude, in their minds, that there are bars that have been imposed on them by others.

part?

Sure, the discussions as I've read them have talked about how a bar that someone thinks is imiposed by someone else, in a way, really isn't because they are simply accepting on face value that it was someone else that did it.  They've stopped thinking at this conclusion.  With more ambition and motivation, perhaps they would examine the bar more in their mind and discover, "Well, shit.  If I just do x instead of all of this y and z shit I've been told about, then I could get around this.  This bar is self-imposed after all.

While that makes sense, I'm not sure if that aptly explains the process for me.  Childhood and upbringing is much more rigorous and has many more repercussions than that.  Defeating said bars are difficult in the extreme, as they shape your movements, your tastes and dislikes, your predilictions in most ways, actually.

Right, and that's where my comment about nature came from.  The OP says to not consider nature/physics but I think you kind of have to.  I think there are cases in which people probably don't have the capacity to see everything and that they don't have the appropriate background information to move any further.  

[Jenne]

I think it's an iron bar, however, to believe you have been the only force shaping YOU.

I think the bar may originate in the "outside" (of yourself) forces that helped shape your prison, but once you recognize it (and woah! the average person rarely does this amount of introspection, I believe) for what it is, it's YOU that chooses to name its origins...not sure if that adds an additional bar to blame someone else for a bar you are keeping in place.

[Jenne]

I'm getting a feeling you're both saying the same thing.

Jenne, you seem to be saying the social and parental blocks that are set up are hard to get around.

RWHN says than people without ambition and motivation (which may be loaded terms) see those blocks as permanent and externally imposed.

I think that's pretty much the same thing.

Ok...then I guess I totally misunderstoon RWHN.    My apologies.