Stirring the Shit

[tyrannosaurus vex]

I'm going to make generalizations in the following definition that will (probably) raise objections based on individualized ideas about what the BIP is.  But for the purpose of the questions I ask, and to minimize thread-drift, please try to think of the BIP in the terms I set out here:

Black Iron Prison:

The idea that the day-to-day reality we experience and participate in is largely defined by restrictions rather that possibilities -- that often what we would like to do must take second place to what we are allowed to do; furthermore, that many of these restrictions result from illusion.

Now, in the material covered by the BIP project so far, we have focused on the idea that the bars in our prison are often self-imposed illusions.  My question for the rest of the people here is this: Do you think that there are bars in the BIP that are not self-imposed?  I don't mean laws of nature/physics, but illusions that are set up and actively maintained by (at the risk of sounding ridiculous) "Them" ?  And if so, does it amount to the same thing anyway, since even if 'They' get you to believe a lie, it's still you imposing it on yourself?

[LMNO]

First, to answer your question, I'd say that cultural taboo comes very close.  Indoctrination from a very young age that you did not choose, and often cannot see.


Secondly, in your definition, you could say that the illusion of restriction is simply the act of denying a possibility, so you could still flip it into something positive, if you wanted.


But I like your definition.

[Cain]

Yes.  Bernays, Propaganda.  Please to be reading.

[Cramulus]

First, to answer your question, I'd say that cultural taboo comes very close.  Indoctrination from a very young age that you did not choose, and often cannot see.

I would extend that - all culture is an illusion that arises from the machine.

For example - you can either get a job or be unemployed. That duality seems like a fact. But even by choosing one label or the other, you're climbing on their semantic framework. If you subsist off wild animals and live in a cabin in the woods, you've essentially escaped that dichotomy, but you had to reject the entire cultural framework to do it.

Now, in the material covered by the BIP project so far, we have focused on the idea that the bars in our prison are often self-imposed illusions.  My question for the rest of the people here is this: Do you think that there are bars in the BIP that are not self-imposed?  I don't mean laws of nature/physics, but illusions that are set up and actively maintained by (at the risk of sounding ridiculous) "Them" ?  And if so, does it amount to the same thing anyway, since even if 'They' get you to believe a lie, it's still you imposing it on yourself?

sorry to answer a question with a question, but
If there are externally imposed illusions that we truly can't just disbelieve, is it worth it trying to escape them? The government is an illusion ... until they show up at your door with a warrant.

[LMNO]

I'd say it seems to be important to consistantly say that the BIP isn't necessarily about breaking free from all restraints, it's about identifying and choosing, with responsibility and knowledge of consequences.

[Cramulus]

well said!

[P3nT4gR4m]

'Cultural taboos'

Here's why I find these interesting.

If you look from culture to culture these are usually defined in terms of boundaries, especially when it comes to explicit legislation in the form of government.

Now when you look at a common one, a cultural taboo which is shared across disparate cultures (thou shalt not kill, steal etc) the boundaries change from culture to culture.

eg. age of consent

There's a gag from way back (forget the source - poss Dave Allen)  about the fact (in the uk at least) that at the age of sixteen you can fight and die for your country, smoke yourself into an early grave but you have to wait until 18 til you're allowed to drown your sorrows. You can also legally fuck at 16 but you have to wait til 18 before you can check if you're doing it right.

In holland (I think - it's near there anyway) the age of consensual sex is 14. Now if a 20 year old guy  was to hump a 14 year old in US or UK (most of this forum?) they'd be a pedo, without taking the individual case into consideration. In holland they'd just be another couple humping but here the dude would be up on all sorts of disgraceful charges and calls to bring back hanging would be heard in the tabloids

Truth be told there's prolly a lot of 14 year old females in the world who are a fucking sight more physically and emotionally mature than, say, a hell of a lot of other 20 year olds. I'm not saying its the norm but I'd be a significant number right? (significant = more than would fit in my house, shoulder to shoulder)

So some guy, who is just an ordinary Joe in the street, mid 20's, picks up a girl in a nightclub somewhere. Chick is done up to the nines, stepped right off the cover of a lads mag, looks 20-ish and, more importantly, comes across that way too. She's 14, ran away from home cos her family were all crackheads or some shit, got a job that didn't ask questions and some digs and basically just kept her shit going. Now, barring statistics, who's to say this couple couldn't live happily ever after if there wasn't a '16' law? (or whatever it is in the us 18? 21?)

Statistically it aint gonna work even if they're both legal.

This same examination can be pored over things like killing - when is it okay/not okay ... and other taboo stuff.

Maybe this is why some folks like to push taboos? Cos it lets them expand their cells.

[Jenne]

*placeholder for answer, must take lunch in 3 mins*

[P3nT4gR4m]

That's bloody cheating that is! 

*edit* and this post is gonna make no sense now 

[Jenne]

*placeholder for answer, must take lunch in 3 mins*

That's bloody cheating that is! 

*edit* and this post is gonna make no sense now 

It was more of a personal reminder, Silly m'Dear. 

Besides, "cheat while you still can" should be a memebomb, imho.

Anyway, getting back to vex's op:  yes, I think the answer is of course "They" forge some bars in your prison.  While we live in a certain amount of a vacuum, a large part of the BIP really does seem to be about recognizing where nurture and nature have placed us in that institution we call Life.

I don't remember if it was in this thread or another (I'm suspecting another) where LMNO was saying to stop using the terminology of an "actual" IRL prison when thinking about the BIP.  I think that this is ok if you're thinking in terms of the "other" phenomenon--the "They" in the OP, meaning the authorities, society, your parents, your teachers, anyone who has influence over you or taught you or could do anything to you IRL.

They are the ones that influence a large part of the BIP, because they matter.  Inherently, indirectly, overtly, covertly...they are the basis on which a lot of our ideas and ideals come from.  The "no man is an island" saying comes to mind, and this is very much the truth.

Trying to discard this presents certain psychopathic phenomena that make it, I'm conjecturing anyway, difficult to reside amongst people.  You "get along" with others on the basis of how much you share with them:  in ideals, dreams, philosophy, stake in community, likeness in habits, etc.  And how close those come together with another individual seems to me the basis on which intimacy can be fostered and then preserved.

Those who are born into this situation are born, in essence, in "captivity."  Just like the animals at the zoo.

Those not born into captivity (and think of how that phrase is so protective and yet unprepossessing at the same time) end up lacking in so many social skills as to be damaged intellectually.  For how can you deal with yourself wholly if you don't deal with others as well?

As for the powers that be...those are just individuals and conglommerates that we bow to from an early age and then continue on bowing in what ways are necessary to preserve those small attachments we form while inside our institutions.  Whether those be attachments to things, peoples and/or behaviors I think depends on the individual's cell.

[Jenne]

Just realized I didn't explain the following:

I don't remember if it was in this thread or another (I'm suspecting another) where LMNO was saying to stop using the terminology of an "actual" IRL prison when thinking about the BIP.  I think that this is ok if you're thinking in terms of the "other" phenomenon--the "They" in the OP, meaning the authorities, society, your parents, your teachers, anyone who has influence over you or taught you or could do anything to you IRL.

When talking about the institution that is the BIP...you have behaviors, situations, routines and relationships that are very much predicated on that particular institution.  Growing up, your parents and teachers are your wardens and security guards, and they become your fellow inmates when you are older.  Police, politicians, etc. become the "real" guards/wardens.

Sexual intimacy can be a LOT like conjugal visits--you have to plan them, like real-life conjugals (I perhaps know way more about this than many of you as my parents are subject to these constraints), you have to set aside time, etc. as your life gets busier and responsibilities keep you from fucking whenever, whoever, however.

*shrug*  I think the BIP can overlap a LOT into real-life prison phenomena when you add in the people who shape that particular experience.

[tyrannosaurus vex]

Jenne -
You bring an interesting point about how we get along with others.  One of the difficult things about having a successful relationship, for me at least, is coming to terms with the fact that you must share some of the 'bars' in your prison with your partner.  Even if they are particularly restrictive in your opinion, or make you uncomfortable. You have to be prepared to adapt to having those around now, as well as to having new ones you hadn't considered before, or even old ones you had already gotten past.

So, if saying your BIP is constructed with restraints you place on yourself is only half the story, then it's also not totally accurate to say you're responsible for breaking yourself out, at least not if you want to maintain relationships with people around you.

This also touches on Prof Cram's point about culture in general being a set of prepackaged BIP restraints.  Maybe it does take a total rejection of culture to be free from its false dichotomies, but if you work with others on a few common bars you share, then you begin affecting the culture at large.

I'm rambling, sorry.

[Jenne]

Not rambling, vex, just piecing it together.

I think you made rather valid points about intimacy...it's a particularly sticky wicket if you're someone who 1) REALLY likes that illusion of control to stay in place and 2) has problems sharing that illusion with someone else.

I fall into both 1 and 2, sadly.

[Jenne]

First, to answer your question, I'd say that cultural taboo comes very close.  Indoctrination from a very young age that you did not choose, and often cannot see.

I would extend that - all culture is an illusion that arises from the machine.

For example - you can either get a job or be unemployed. That duality seems like a fact. But even by choosing one label or the other, you're climbing on their semantic framework. If you subsist off wild animals and live in a cabin in the woods, you've essentially escaped that dichotomy, but you had to reject the entire cultural framework to do it.

Now, in the material covered by the BIP project so far, we have focused on the idea that the bars in our prison are often self-imposed illusions.  My question for the rest of the people here is this: Do you think that there are bars in the BIP that are not self-imposed?  I don't mean laws of nature/physics, but illusions that are set up and actively maintained by (at the risk of sounding ridiculous) "Them" ?  And if so, does it amount to the same thing anyway, since even if 'They' get you to believe a lie, it's still you imposing it on yourself?

sorry to answer a question with a question, but
If there are externally imposed illusions that we truly can't just disbelieve, is it worth it trying to escape them? The government is an illusion ... until they show up at your door with a warrant.

Have to say, motorcycle on this.  And this is the "blindest" part about the BIP (black = blindness, imo).  You don't see these aspects of existence within these paradigms til they are really removed from you and you are truly placed in another part of the institution.

[LMNO]

Damn, I need to print this out & take it home.

Great expansion on the subject.

Jenne:  I think you just Starbucked the thing.  Great use of metaphor.

Now I have to pick it apart & see what the hell is really going on.