Abortion is Murder

[hunter s.durden]

1. When you vote pro-life, you're not just giving your opinion.  You're telling others what to do.

Win.

So if I come to your house to murder your wife, and you stop me, aren't you just telling me what I can't do?
You don't comdemn the fact that its legal some places for muslim men to kill their wives and daughters for insolence?

We tell others what to do all the time, so don't give me that nonsense.

I'm arguing for the people that believe in the sanctity of life. I'm not talking about political leverage and all that other bullshit.

[hunter s.durden]

But you damn well better also include "unintentional civilian casualties" in your country's retarded war "murder" as well.

If this is directed at me, my country isn't at war.

I secceeded from the US long ago.

Besides, to me, the war is a no-brainer issue. Stop it- E/O/T.

Also: Off-point. I'm pro-murder.

[LMNO]

Your personal definition applies only to you, which is fine.

The problem comes when you try to apply your personal definition to other people.

You obviously seem upset when people try to force you to believe that an embryo is not alive; why shouldn't the converse be true?

[LMNO]

the "abortion as contraception" idea is total bullshit, if you talk to a woman who has ever had one.

By all accounts, it's a pretty miserable experience.

Granted, you can probably find a handful of women who may have done it, but a widespread occurence?  No way.

[AFK]

I try to think of this from a practical point of view.  Having had a kid, I have to admit my personal views on abortion have shifted somewhat.  When it comes right down to it, and if you pinned me to the wall, I would still say I am pro-choice, as a matter of law.  

And this is mainly because of the coat hanger abortion.  Yeah, I know that's cliches, but we know from the alcohol prohibition debacle, that if you outlaw something that humans are naturally going to want, they will find a way to get it.  If a society cares about the safety and welfare of women, especially those who become pregnant, it seems to me you have to allow for legal abortions.  Now, one can say this is state-sponsored murder, and if that's one's personal view about abortion, then that's what it is, state-sponsored abortion.  But the reality is, it's going to happen.  There are women who are going to become pregnant who didn't want to.  Perhaps it is failed birth control, perhaps it is foollishy NOT using birth control, perhaps it is incest or rape.  These things will NEVER go away.  The want to terminate these unplanned and unwated pregnancies is NEVER going away.  

I feel it's best that, if the society wants these women to be safe, then abortion needs to remain legal.  If, however, a society decides that "fuck them if they can't keep their legs closed", then you legislate accordingly.  It seems in America, the majority is the former and the minority is the latter.  Currently the balance is shifted towards the former.  If it goes the other way, well we all know what will happen.  

[AFK]

the "abortion as contraception" idea is total bullshit, if you talk to a woman who has ever had one.

By all accounts, it's a pretty miserable experience.

Granted, you can probably find a handful of women who may have done it, but a widespread occurence?  No way.

Agreed.  When my wife had a "spontaneous abortion", otherwise known as a miscarriage, what she went through to, there's no delicate way to put this, remove the failed fetus, was just plain awful.  It took her, and me vicariously, MONTHS to get over it.  In fact, I know it still scars her mentally to this day.  A woman who would use processes like that as contraception have to have some mental issues, seriously. 

[Triple Zero]

i just wanted to say that an egg is generally not a living thing as it's not fertilized.

a better question would be if vegetarians are allowed to swallow.

also, on abortion. if you wanna call it murder, fine. it's just a label. if you're gonna say it's right or wrong, that's different. i don't think it's wrong.

RWHN gives some good practical reasons why it should be legal and possible and i agree with those, but says nothing about right or wrong.

i also agree with LMNOs stance on "abortion as contraception".

for me, personally, on a ethical level, the reason i don't think it's "wrong", is because the "life" you're ending isn't really that much to speak of, IMVHO. i don't really believe in the "potential" or "possible" life that a fetus could have lived, cause i don't believe in playing the "what if" game. i know how useless it is saying "what if" about events and decisions in my own life (see the "meeting my old self" remark in that other thread--it's bull)
so the value of life must come from the decisions and action a living thing has already taken. that's the thing, it's a living thing you're killing, but the life you're taking away isn't that much. at least, don't get me wrong, what i mean by "isn't that much" is that i, personally, don't feel that much emotional value in it. but then, i've never been in such a situation (and hope i never have to be), so i can't really tell.

also, the problem is, if we look at the other end, euthanasia for someone who has turned into a vegetable, which i also think is not wrong, i will hold the same argument exactly the other way around, attributing the value of a life to whatever possible future actions it can take.

so apparently, i'm a hypocrite.

[Cain]

 

That's why I disagree.  Because this entire topic is trollbait.

[hunter s.durden]

That's why I disagree.  Because this entire topic is trollbait.

This is my way of sticking up for somebody.

Not because I agree with them, I don't. My attitude is similar to 000's.

I'm sticking up for them because I believe it's the thing to do. So many Pro-choicers villify the Right-to-lifers as some sort of Anti-choice Thought-Police. That may be the case sometimes, but a whole bunch of those people are good people who believe in the sanctity of life. All this is my effort to hopefully put it in someones mind that there are worse things out there than people who care.
You see it as a troll, but I think if you consider that some of those people have humanity's best intrests in mind, we can heal some rifts.

[Cain]

I don't see you as a troll, I see the entire topic as a troll.

It doesn't matter who debate it or where.  In can be in Parliament, on Crossfire or on outlandish internet forums.  The parameters of the discussion are pre-set, and loaded with political, cultural and philosophical values that are constantly in conflict.  Because each side has Universalized their positions and made use of intractable absolutes, the discussion will never end and ONLY serves the purpose of causing a massive fight, where one side gets accused of murder and the other gets accused of supporting religious bigotry and overpopulation.  There will never be a solution, it will rarely change peoples mind and all it does is cause a rather pathetic verbal sparring match.

That's why its a troll topic.

Cain,
meta-debating this bitch.

[hunter s.durden]

I don't see you as a troll, I see the entire topic as a troll.

It doesn't matter who debate it or where.  In can be in Parliament, on Crossfire or on outlandish internet forums.  The parameters of the discussion are pre-set, and loaded with political, cultural and philosophical values that are constantly in conflict.  Because each side has Universalized their positions and made use of intractable absolutes, the discussion will never end and ONLY serves the purpose of causing a massive fight, where one side gets accused of murder and the other gets accused of supporting religious bigotry and overpopulation.  There will never be a solution, it will rarely change peoples mind and all it does is cause a rather pathetic verbal sparring match.

That's why its a troll topic.

Cain,
meta-debating this bitch.

Let's hug.

Cain wins at abortion.

[Triple Zero]

it's true. that's one of the first things i thought of when writing my comment. if people have an opinion on abortion, they're not gonna change it. i know i'm not so why should they?

[AFK]

pfft.  Tell that to Mitt Romney. 

[tyrannosaurus vex]

also, i think i'm quoting somebody from here:

ABORTION IS MURDER
MISCARRIAGE IS MANSLAUGHTER

[Cramulus]

I think abortions should be mandatory.

Failing that, that parents should have the option to have a post-natal abortion up until about the 36th trimester.



after all, it's a mother's choice to strangle her kids