TRANSMISSIONS FROM ARIZONA

[Requia ☣]

Of course, in this case "terrorist" = "patriotic resistance against illegally invading forces" , which leads us right back to the ethical can of worms.

Well, no, that *was* the case, now the people the government wants you to beleive are terrorists are patriotic resistance bravely kidnapping/executing/blowing up their fellow cuntrymen.

Edit: I see the typo, and refuse to change it.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Of course, in this case "terrorist" = "patriotic resistance against illegally invading forces" , which leads us right back to the ethical can of worms.

Well, no, that *was* the case, now the people the government wants you to beleive are terrorists are patriotic resistance bravely kidnapping/executing/blowing up their fellow cuntrymen.

Say what, Junior?

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Edit: I see the typo, and refuse to change it.

Because you hate America, and love terrorists.

[Requia ☣]

For the first year of occupation the situation was as you described, Iraqis attacking US soldiers trying to force them out (some of them just wanted us gone, some of them were trying to restore the old regime).

After about a year, we started seeing actually terrorism, with soldiers and civilian contractors being kidnapped, held for ransom, and then executed.  We also saw an upshot in IEDs, and attacks against Iraqi's who voted or accepted aid from coalition forces.  The actual terrorists also attacked the insurgents in a number of cases.  The insurgents eventually either quit, started working with the coalition, or were absorbed by Al Qaida in Mesopotamia.

Eventually, someone decided to blow up a church.  The sect who had their church destroyed responded with violence against members of sect number 2 and things went downhill from there.  The end result was that most of the violence in Iraq over the last 2 and a half years has been sectarian in nature, that is, directed as Sunni against Shi'ite and Shi'ite against Sunni, rather than Iraqi against coalition.

[Requia ☣]

Edit: I see the typo, and refuse to change it.

Because you hate America, and love terrorists.

I only love american terrorists.

[Nast]

I'm still waiting for someone to point out my character flaws and crippling paradoxes in my world view! 

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I'm still waiting for someone to point out my character flaws and crippling paradoxes in my world view! 

JELLUS?   

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

For the first year of occupation the situation was as you described, Iraqis attacking US soldiers trying to force them out (some of them just wanted us gone, some of them were trying to restore the old regime).

After about a year, we started seeing actually terrorism, with soldiers and civilian contractors being kidnapped, held for ransom, and then executed.  We also saw an upshot in IEDs, and attacks against Iraqi's who voted or accepted aid from coalition forces.  The actual terrorists also attacked the insurgents in a number of cases.  The insurgents eventually either quit, started working with the coalition, or were absorbed by Al Qaida in Mesopotamia.

Eventually, someone decided to blow up a church.  The sect who had their church destroyed responded with violence against members of sect number 2 and things went downhill from there.  The end result was that most of the violence in Iraq over the last 2 and a half years has been sectarian in nature, that is, directed as Sunni against Shi'ite and Shi'ite against Sunni, rather than Iraqi against coalition.

Imagine that, an attempted escalation in Order led to a catastrophic escalation in Disorder. 

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

For the first year of occupation the situation was as you described, Iraqis attacking US soldiers trying to force them out (some of them just wanted us gone, some of them were trying to restore the old regime).

After about a year, we started seeing actually terrorism, with soldiers and civilian contractors being kidnapped, held for ransom, and then executed.  We also saw an upshot in IEDs, and attacks against Iraqi's who voted or accepted aid from coalition forces.  The actual terrorists also attacked the insurgents in a number of cases.  The insurgents eventually either quit, started working with the coalition, or were absorbed by Al Qaida in Mesopotamia.

Eventually, someone decided to blow up a church.  The sect who had their church destroyed responded with violence against members of sect number 2 and things went downhill from there.  The end result was that most of the violence in Iraq over the last 2 and a half years has been sectarian in nature, that is, directed as Sunni against Shi'ite and Shi'ite against Sunni, rather than Iraqi against coalition.

Imagine that, an attempted escalation in Order led to a catastrophic escalation in Disorder. 

WOOOWWWWWWWW

[LMNO]

Hold on.  "Actually fighting" in the first year, and "terrorism" in the following years?

You don't think that, possibly, it became extremely obvious that they didn't have a chance of surviving if they played by our rules of war?

I understand the rise in sectarianism, but I still see quite a lot of "actual fighting."

[P3nT4gR4m]

Sectarianism is the trump card of any occupying force.

Divide and conquer ftw

[B_M_W]

I just want to say that this shoop is amazing. 

[Requia ☣]

Hold on.  "Actually fighting" in the first year, and "terrorism" in the following years?

You don't think that, possibly, it became extremely obvious that they didn't have a chance of surviving if they played by our rules of war?

I understand the rise in sectarianism, but I still see quite a lot of "actual fighting."

They weren't playing by our rules from very early on.  The violence was just actually directed at soldiers.  (No uniforms is enough to get you labeled a war criminal).  I changed my label to terrorist based on deliberate assault on Iraqi civilians.  (Which serves no purpose if you want to free Iraq from American oppression).  There's also an important factor that the terrorists were different people than the insurgents. 

Some of the grunts were probably the same, but all of the organization of terrorist activity (defined for my purposes as deliberate assault of civilians, and kidnapping/ransom/torture/execution of civilians, US troops, and insurgent troops), was led by foreigners.  Even at the peak of violence against Coalition forces, we only lost ~2000 soldiers, which sounds like a lot, but isn't near as bad as people made it out to be.  (Something a soldier friend told me before he shipped out, we lose ~2000 men a year in Iraq to nonviolent deaths anyway, his chances of living were only marginally better on a base in the US).

[Cain]

By concentrating on the methods of terrorism, we're not looking at the root causes of terrorism.

Orthodox terrorism discourse is so 2003.  Instead of viewing terrorism in terms of security threat/illegitimate violence/Wesphalian system, its a far better idea, in the long term, to try and find out what is causing it and stop that chain of events from perpetuating.

I know this isn't a very popular idea with our government, who recently recalled two diplomats from Afghanistan who tried to open communication channels with the Taliban (ironically this is the same government who also DID hold direct, face to face talks with the IRA's ruling council), but funnily enough, dialogues and the possibility of a say in policy work FAR better than bombing the shit out of people repeatedly.

In fact, before 9/11, lots of peace initiatives were working in places like Nepal or Sri Lanka, precisely because the roots of terrorism were being debated and those groups were being included in those dialogues.  Then suddenly, post 9/11, many of these states felt they had carte blanche to mobilize the forces of the state to wipe out terrorist groups.  Which has worked out so well.... 

[P3nT4gR4m]

...dialogues and the possibility of a say in policy work FAR better than bombing the shit out of people repeatedly.

Bombing the shit makes for much better teevee thos.

The population aint gonna be quite as scared and angry watching a bunch of people talking now are they?