BREAKING: US MARINE THROWS PUPPY OFF A CLIFF

[Thurnez Isa]

personally Im willing to hold my judgement till all the facts are out
but my first impressions are a couple of assholes doing the equivalent of a fratboy stunt
unfortunate as things stand
but according to cnn and the military's reaction they are probably going to lose their jobs cause of it
time will tell if they deserved it
probably did

[Random Probability]

personally Im willing to hold my judgement till all the facts are out
but my first impressions are a couple of assholes doing the equivalent of a fratboy stunt
unfortunate as things stand
but according to cnn and the military's reaction they are probably going to lose their jobs cause of it
time will tell if they deserved it
probably did

Well, at least you're thinking.

Here is something else to consider.  At the time it happened everyone in his squad knew and his platoon leader (an officer, in case you didn't know that) would also have known.  If anything was going to happen to him over this issue, it would have already happened.  If at this late date he does burn for it then his superiors ought to burn as well, but we all know that isn't going to happen.

Also consider the fact that his unit is currently in the "walks on water" category of elite considering their combat record, so that will automatically shield the officers from the current shitstorm.

[FingFeng]

I'm not saying that they choose to off themselves, or that they need to be mentally strong enough to exercise moral judgement.... I'm saying that this jerk volunteered take employment with a group that is in the business of mass murder. Everything that happens afterward is directly related to that decision. His PTSD, his puppy throwing, any bloodguilt from dead arabs... all of it is HIS FUCKING RESPONSIBILITY.

Then, what you're saying is that anyone that signs up is guilty of putting themselves in danger of commiting an attrocity regardless of whether, in fact, they do.  Since you admit that it is highly unlikely a squadie signs up 'wanting' to lose it... but in the act of signing up accepts responsibility if they do.

This one might lose it.  That one might lose it... we know for a fact that a large percentage of them WILL lose it so statistically the individual cases are not really relevant.  We already expect it.

I agree with you to an extent, but I still stand by my statements

If we pack them off expecting this then we should also be prepared to accept it when it happens and not just indulge moral kneejerks against particular individuals without the benefit of a Psych-Eval.  We knew this type of thing would happen.  War ain't clean or pretty and it certainly isn't noble and honourable...

Shit happens and all the anger in the world won't change a damned thing.


I just don't see, after admitting recognition of the psychiatric danges of war on the individual, that it makes sense to just come out and say 'This man is obviously wrong and deserves punishment'.  You really need to know his state of mind before you can start making moral judgements.

And on this score I just get the feeling that many people can't see past the 'OMG - A PUPPY' thing.

If you know a certain act will send 20% of the people involved OTT then either :

a) Accept that by comissioning you're responsible for both act and any associated cleanup
-or-
b) You don't commission the act

If you go into war (or stand by whilst your government goes to war) with the knowledge that many of those involved are going to come back dangerously unhinged or suicidal... then you cannot blame each individual unless you can demonstrate that they commissioned an imoral act with full mental faculty.


Like RP pointed towards, this stuff is pretty much expected by the Army who really do understand the psychology of war and those individuals involved in it.  It is a sad reality of war that things get a little sick at times... black humour abounds because it MUST.  If it didn't they'd be out their topping themselves... many will still top themselves when they get back.  Seriously, the black humour is part and parcel of staying alive... it just happens to cause a lot of outrage from those at home who can afford such a nice neat moral view.

It makes sense to me,

But anyway, I said I'd vacate this thread so thats what I'll do ; )  I just kinda caught your post on the way out.


~Fing Feng III

[Random Probability]

Yes, he threw a puppy off a cliff as opposed to shooting it.  Wow... that's cruel alrighty...

Shooting puppy = dead puppy
Throwing Puppy = Maybe Dead Puppy, Maybe broken and alive and hurting puppy

I grew up in the country. I know all about putting animals out of their misery. Throwing puppies is not a useful way of putting them out of their misery. You FAIL for even trying to make that argument.

Well, it certainly is refreshing to hear from an authority on killing animals.  I know nobody else knows about that sort of thing at all.  Wow.  You know, gunshots aren't always 100% effective at killing animals.  Even small ones.

As for the cliff, it depends on how high that cliff is, among other things.  I couldn't tell from the video.  Could you?

At this point I'll direct your attention to an earlier post I made where I asserted said named Marine wasn't particularly bright, but home movie stars rarely are....

[Random Probability]

it just happens to cause a lot of outrage from those at home who can afford such a nice neat moral view.

This is what I've been on about.  Not to sound too ZOMG23PINEALLOL or anything, but all of the outrage over puppy werfing is entirely a case of someone looking through their little window and lining up what they see on an imaginary grid.  The man on the scene sees an animal that ought to be destroyed.  Everyone else sitting in the safety of their comfy chair in front of their personal computer sees a cute little puppy being killed by some retarded shithead.

I also find it comical that the same people who express so much dewy-eyed sympathy for the puppy expose their deeply ingrained sadistic streak in calling for the torture, mutilation, and death of that Marine.

[Cain]

Well that's the Daily Mail-esque masses for you.  Logical coherency in worldview goes where?

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Yes, he threw a puppy off a cliff as opposed to shooting it.  Wow... that's cruel alrighty...

Shooting puppy = dead puppy
Throwing Puppy = Maybe Dead Puppy, Maybe broken and alive and hurting puppy

I grew up in the country. I know all about putting animals out of their misery. Throwing puppies is not a useful way of putting them out of their misery. You FAIL for even trying to make that argument.

Well, it certainly is refreshing to hear from an authority on killing animals.  I know nobody else knows about that sort of thing at all.  Wow.  You know, gunshots aren't always 100% effective at killing animals.  Even small ones.

Yes, having had that experience myself, I know that its certainly possible. The first bullet may not kill a small animal at point blank range. If the operator of the gun knows what they are doing, this is highly unlikely, but still possible. Throwing a dog to kill it, however, has a much higher likelihood of failing to kill the animal. Gunshots tend to be 90% effective or so... and even then if the first bullet doesn't do the job, you can quickly unload a second which should finish things off. On the other hand, throwing a puppy over a cliff means that if the puppy were still alive, it would be broken and suffering at the bottom of a cliff (and I'm betting they didn't run down to make sure it was dead).

So no, that line of argument also fails any test of logic.

There is no good reason for throwing a puppy over a cliff. This marine threw a puppy over the cliff, his act, his responsibility...

I have no opinion on his continued service in the military, they kill people for a living... I don't think killing a dog should count for too much. However, it isn't OK, it isn't normal, it isn't excusable. I have yet to see any argument that supports, what appears to me as an insane view, that this is somehow OK.

As for the cliff, it depends on how high that cliff is, among other things.  I couldn't tell from the video.  Could you?

WTF? Height doesn't guarantee immediate death. It mostly just indicates that when it landed, it probably broke several bones.

[Jenne]

I didn't... I said that unless you've dealt with it in one form or another you can't say shit.

You (unlike most) have, so I expect we can recognise where each other is coming from.



So, you'd rather I just jumped on the 'OMG THEY KILLED THE PUPPY - BASTARDS' bandwagon ?  You really think that would help anything ?

My point was that theres a bigger issue here than an isolated act of violence against a puppy.  Since you've made clear where you're comming from I'd expect at least a LITTLE nod of recognition before you lay into the subject.

Yet you just jump in with the 'you're talking shit' vibe and then imply I'm being an ass about this even tough you appear to agree with 90% of my argument.  Ummm... yeah... cool.


The exact point I'm making... this marine may come home and blow his brains all over a wall... yet people who DONT know WTF we're talking about here see only the puppy and want to immediately assume the guy did so cus he thought it was fun... not perhaps because he may be pretty damned fucked up by it all.

Again, I'm not telling HIM he's right... I'm telling OTHERS it may be more complicated than they suspect.  So chill.

You seem to be engaged in apologetics, actually.  Which, given your occupation and your impressions of those vets you know, that's fine.  But you have to separate out the therapist mindset from the "citizen Fing Feng" who is engaged in a discussion on these topics with other "citizens at large".  YOU took the stance towards ME first on the "you can't say this is bullshit til you've dealt with it firsthand"--all I was doing is showing you the hand and saying, "Please, you are assuming too much about everyone, first of all me" and showing you my "cred."

I also disagree that unless you know these people firsthand you have no right to judge.  Why?  Because these people live amongst those who don't have their experiences, and they can be harmed, apparently, by them.  How can they NOT judge this man by the glee in his voice and face as he tosses and innocent life into oblivion?  They will give him the respect due him til they see a blatant evil (yes, I reserve the word "evil" for shit like this)act for no apparent reason other than "he's fucked up."

Plenty of people are fucked up for various reasons--and they don't kill harmless, innocent beings.

Ummm... I didn't.  I was making the point that it isn't quite so simple to see into this guys head or to expect that his value system is perfectly fine.  I'm not telling soldiers anything... I'm telling civilian kneejerkers that theres a whole deal more to this than some cunt throwing puppies for fun.  This rings heavily of early PTS.

Do you disagree, because you seem to.

No, see, there's a deeper level to my meaning:  I don't care.  I don't care what his problem is, exactly, I judge his deed purely as what he did:  wrong.

I admit there's a problem with the moral compass of some of the guys coming back form the war--that's expected to a large fucking degree.  But the military is obviously slipping when it's not catching this shit and dealing with it head-on.  There've been MULTIPLE stories on this in the media.  The military is in patent denial about the scope here.  It's wide, broad and immediate.  I also think these young guys should catch a clue sometimes and realize that joining up in wartime means YOU WILL KILL PEOPLE or BE KILLED.  But perhaps we give them a pass on that too since they are poor, innocent souls until thrown into the pit of despair?

Being in the military during wartime doesn't mean this guy is any less of a monster than he's demonstrated he can be.  That doesn't make this dude any less harmless, or comprehensible.  Just puts a label on him as "fucked up vet who needs attention pronto before he kills someONE instead of someTHING."

Now, that is bullshit.  How is seeking to understand rather than either condone or condemn going to be of any practical value to a therapist.  And I did say that I was speaking as a professional therapist.

You're telling me I should judge these people ?  Fuck off,  Most of them that come in for therapy are already judging themselves and are way full of self hate.  Yeah, I should judge them... Get real, the only way they get through is by realising that what they did is not who they are... they have to let go and they cannot, because everytime they look at their children they see burnt corpses and feel fucking responsible.

Telling them to accept responsibility is precisely what makes them want put a gun to their mouths.  I LISTEN to them, I TALK to them, I do HYPNOTHERAPY, I teach COPING techniques...

But I DO NOT ABSOLVE... if they want absolution they can go to a priest

And I DO NOT BLAME... they can find that inside of themselves, or they can go face their neatly moral compartmentalised judgemental members of the general public.

So, if that's your beef I suggest you sit down, take a deep breath, and then STFU telling me I'm enabling such attrocities because you really don't have a clue about the work I do.  And it isn't just me, my wife is a clinical psychologist with a specialisation in stress related disorders.

Yeah, I hold a lot of therapists in various stances and pov's to blame too.  As long as you hold that line of "oh I don't tell you what to do, I just try to understand why you do it" you don't change much, do ya?

But that's a whole other bullshit thread.

My main point atm is that if you are going to argue the morality of this thing, you probably shouldn't do it from the standpoint of their therapist, because you've already stated you can't judge.  And you are talking to people without the so-called kneejerk reactions you are placing on us here.  I'd say the majority of people responding itt have some sort of education, experience and back up.

No, instead you are blaming those who judge him ill, as they should.  So fuck off right back.  You are taking the non-blame stance and telling others they can't do so either.  That's fucked up.  Everyone has "deep, complicated" experiences.  This is one further category of them.  And one that needs addressing, by the public, in just this manner, or guess what?  It'll never get resolved and go away. 

Well thanks for that enlightening view.

Didn't say it was enlightening, it's just mine.

See, now I started out by criticising the 'military fucks' as you put it.  I just can't help feeling that we share so much common ground here yet you just want to fight me out of anger.  You appear to know first hand the problems yet you seem to be completely polarised against me.

Where did I say it was 'okay' if some guy 'implodes' ... I didn't.  I said it is understandable that this shit happens and that he needs help and not some kneejerk reaction from the puppylover brigade (of which I am one BTW).  I really don't see how I'm advocating marines going jerko.

I really don't see where you get off...

... but I get off here.

Please feel free to continue this attack in my absence.


~Fing Feng III

I get off where you get on in apologetics.  They're bullshit.  This isn't a "black and white" or even "right or wrong" issue--it's a fucked up problem society needs to pay attention to and do something about, really.  To me, this incident is a no-brainer.  The dude did a bad thing and should be punished and then seek mental help asap.

So, really, what it comes down to is this:  as a therapist, fine, don't judge, blame, condone or do anything but UNDERSTAND.

But I wouldn't also "kneejerk" your own reaction against those who DO judge, blame and condemn.  It's a bullshit argument to say it's complicated and a mental problem.  Yeah, well, DUH is my genuine response to that.

And I daresay few aren't AWARE of what goes on in war--they just don't think that it excuses people from criminal acts against others.

[Mangrove]

Undiscussed possibility:


That the individual concerned was a shithead before he joined the military.

Just because we see him commit the act whilst wearing a military uniform does not necessarily mean that his puppy throwing was a result of his military experience.

The clip itself is very short and beyond informing us of what he did (ie: towser tossing), it doesn't tell us much about his entire life leading up to that point.

If the clip showed the man in jeans & t-shirt and we didn't know he had been in the marines etc, then there's a good chance (IMHO) that the interpretation of the event would've been different.

I don't think that anyone here thinks playing cannus cannonball is a good idea. I don't think anyone here disagrees on the point that war is pretty much the worst thing humanity has ever devised and that it's effects are spread far & wide beyond the initial combat itself.

Truth of the matter is that we know little/nothing beyond the event itself as captured on film and even that tiny reality-lite snippet is open to debate (real film? doctored film? sound contemporaneous? sound added?).

I'm not suggesting that this is TEH ANSWER!11!, but we cannot rule out the possibility that the whippet winger, may have simply been a jackass who may have done this sort of thing anyway.

Just a thought.

[Random Probability]

Undiscussed possibility:


That the individual concerned was a shithead before he joined the military.

Truth of the matter is that we know little/nothing beyond the event itself as captured on film and even that tiny reality-lite snippet is open to debate (real film? doctored film? sound contemporaneous? sound added?).

I'm not suggesting that this is TEH ANSWER!11!, but we cannot rule out the possibility that the whippet winger, may have simply been a jackass who may have done this sort of thing anyway.

Just a thought.

Admittedly, this is the first thought that crossed my mind (with the caveat that I am all too aware of the operational realities relevant to official oversight of SNMs actions).  I seem to have gotten wrapped around the axle somewhere along the line.

[FingFeng]

I got to stop watching threads or I'll keep getting pulled back in, like now...

YOU took the stance towards ME first on the "you can't say this is bullshit til you've dealt with it firsthand"

Actually, you basically jumped in and said I was talking complete bullshit... I then note that you then went on to agree with most of it accept the fact that I thought it wasn't necessarily a black and white issue... which again, you then appear to sort of agree on.

No, see, there's a deeper level to my meaning:  I don't care.  I don't care what his problem is, exactly, I judge his deed purely as what he did:  wrong.

Again, I never said the act wasn't 'wrong'... I just said that it is indicative of a recognised phenomenon which I'd expect at least a passing nod to.

Later in this very post you contradict this and go on to state that this is NOT a 'right/wrong' issue.  Do you see how confusing you're being ?

I admit there's a problem with the moral compass of some of the guys coming back form the war--that's expected to a large fucking degree.

And if it is expected, then we should at least attempt to account for it.  And, no, that doesn't mean condone, it means understand the issues before we wade in and guage everything with our own civilian moral compass.

Being in the military during wartime doesn't mean this guy is any less of a monster than he's demonstrated he can be.  That doesn't make this dude any less harmless, or comprehensible.  Just puts a label on him as "fucked up vet who needs attention pronto before he kills someONE instead of someTHING."

And attention, in this case, is pointing the finger from the comfortable moral highground ?

Yeah, I hold a lot of therapists in various stances and pov's to blame too.  As long as you hold that line of "oh I don't tell you what to do, I just try to understand why you do it" you don't change much, do ya?

But that's a whole other bullshit thread.

Again, you insist on twisting this around to suit yourself.  I'm actually a hynotherapist, I deal with the thoughts and feelings and I help get peoples feet back on the ground on this stuff.  I also deal with families of those with problems too... although not as much as my wife.

You may think I'm contributing to this whole mess but I really (and I mean REALLY) don't see how.  And if you think, as a hypnotherapist, I should be pointing out how evil he obviously is then obviously you don't know the first thing about my line of work.  You should perhaps talk to my wife whos a clinical psychologist going for her psychiatric training.

My main point atm is that if you are going to argue the morality of this thing, you probably shouldn't do it from the standpoint of their therapist, because you've already stated you can't judge.  And you are talking to people without the so-called kneejerk reactions you are placing on us here.  I'd say the majority of people responding itt have some sort of education, experience and back up.

What I said was, this was wrong... but you need to understand the nature of it before you can slap the 'evil' badge on this guy.  You really SHOULD understand this...

... because the reason your soldier comes back so screwed up may well be because of very similar feelings.  Indeed, he may well have pinned the 'evil' badge on himself.  And if it all starts to go wrong (And I hope to god it doesn't) you're going to be relying on EXACTLY the kind of non-judgemental professionals who will be helping him drop the guilt and get a handle on it all.

Not to absolve him of any moral crime, but just to bring him BACK HOME

Your attack is unwarranted.

You are taking the non-blame stance and telling others they can't do so either.  That's fucked up.

No, I understand why people blame this man.  I'm not saying they can't... I'm just saying that there may be a lot more going on.  So kill me.

Everyone has "deep, complicated" experiences.  This is one further category of them.  And one that needs addressing, by the public, in just this manner, or guess what?  It'll never get resolved and go away.

Okay, and when the public gets mad at the guilt-ridden vets it goes away ?  Oh, yeah, just like it did for the returning vietnam vets.  All they need is some good ol' fashioned blamefest to bring them round.  Yep?  Well... I'm sorry but the public treatment of those vets made NOTHING better and made NOTHING 'go away'

It just made things far worse.  They came back to a whole shitload of blame... The ones that didn't kill themselves STILL havent integrated.  Success for the straight social finger of morality ?  I guess not.

There is NOTHING to support your contention that what returning vets need is fingerpointing and blame.  What they need is for someone to take their damned psychological webbing off.


Now, remember earlier you said "I don't care.  I don't care what his problem is, exactly, I judge his deed purely as what he did:  wrong" ...

I get off where you get on in apologetics.  They're bullshit.  This isn't a "black and white" or even "right or wrong" issue--it's a fucked up problem society needs to pay attention to and do something about, really.  To me, this incident is a no-brainer.  The dude did a bad thing and should be punished and then seek mental help asap.

If it isn't 'black and white'... and it isn't 'right or wrong'... and it is 'just a fucked up mess that society needs to pay attention to'... then isn't that EXACTLY what I've been saying (and you've been denying) ?

Your problem is that you DO seem to think it is 'black and white'... you DO seem to think it is a matter of 'right and wrong'... and as a result you are rushing to condemn.  Paradox ?

You're confusing the crap out of me.  Are you high right now ?

As you go on to say...

But I wouldn't also "kneejerk" your own reaction against those who DO judge, blame and condemn.

Did you just say it wasn't a B&W / R&W issue ?  I never said that you couldn't call it evil... just urged against simple 'OMG - A PUPPY' responses without at least considering that the issue may have more depth.

You are such an argumentative lil' bunny ain't you

And I daresay few aren't AWARE of what goes on in war--they just don't think that it excuses people from criminal acts against others.

And again with your straw man arguments... I never excused anyone.


This is getting tiring.  Yet I really am inexorably attracted to your line of reasoning... I'm actually becoming genuinely interested what you're going to attack me with next.


~Fing Feng III

[Jenne]

  Naw, I'm just laughing at the kneejerk reactionary calling me out on my own kneejerkiness. 

I can't be high while I work...won't function half as well or get paid half as much.

I quoted what you said--it's there in blue and white and black...*shrug*  You called everyone ITT that said the puppy thrower = big, fat jerk (I'm PARAPHRASING) a kneejerk reactionary. 

You can call an action wrong without turning the main issue (which seems less and less to be about abuse of animals and more and more to be about abusive soldiers) into a black and white, do or die mechanism (had to add that last, that's what I get for multi-tasking).

For someone who walks away from an argument, you shore do stick around and talk alot, thar, Fing Feng...

[Faust]

FOOOM

[FingFeng]

  Naw, I'm just laughing at the kneejerk reactionary calling me out on my own kneejerkiness. 

LOL

I can't be high while I work...won't function half as well or get paid half as much.

I quoted what you said--it's there in blue and white and black...*shrug*  You called everyone ITT that said the puppy thrower = big, fat jerk (I'm PARAPHRASING) a kneejerk reactionary. 

I said it was very easy to kneejerk... I was pointing out that there may be a lot more going on.  If that wasn't so hard for people to swallow then this thread wouldn't have gotten so long.

You can call an action wrong without turning the main issue (which seems less and less to be about abuse of animals and more and more to be about abusive soldiers) into a black and white, do or die mechanism (had to add that last, that's what I get for multi-tasking).

Hmmm, not the way it seemed to read... but I'll let it go.

For someone who walks away from an argument, you shore do stick around and talk alot, thar, Fing Feng...

I just couldn't resist your charms, what can I say...

k, Beer ? 


~Fing Feng III

"... forget the puppyhunt, just get the damn flag up"

[hooplala]

Against my better judgement I just watched the video, and both soldiers DEFINITELY laugh about it, before throwing the puppy, in fact one actually says "Aw, cute little puppy", and after the puppy is thrown the camera man says "That's mean" and the tosser shrugs with a half smile at the camera.

It's absolutely nauseating.