BREAKING: US MARINE THROWS PUPPY OFF A CLIFF

[Jenne]

So vets are absolved from civilian misbehaviors and crimes because they've been on a battlefield?

Sounds like they shouldn't be returning to the homeland then.

If we hold them to a different standard of behaviors, then they really shouldn't be melding with the rest of society, eh?  When your protector turns on you, who's going to protect you from him/her?

Exactly.

Shitty argument, sorry.

ETA:  you can understand and still condemn and disapprove.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

And that somehow magically changes the fact that this guy volunteered to join a organization that is trained, designed and used for mass murder? I do not accept the "Dur, those poor boys got tricked into joining" bullshit. Maybe we could make that argument in the 50's, when WWII was still fresh in the minds of individuals. Now though, after Korea, after Vietnam, after a generation of wars for corporate interests... naivety seems like a silly excuse to me.

I think you're forgetting that the UN changed the face of the US Army role until just recently.

Whilst I may feel bad for the puppy, I cannot blame the man.  The problem is twisted foreign policy and the ritual dehumanising of individuals in pursuit of economic advantages for the rich.

I gotta disagree Fing Fing... We are, all of us, responsible for our actions. Sure there may be twisted policy, dehumanizing training, horrific conditions... however, he voluntarily signed up for all of it. It's not like PTSD is some brand new thing, or psychological damage to soldiers is an unknown, that he can't be blamed for.

Every soldier must take personal responsibility for every death they cause, just like any other human. Having the blessing of some social/tribal system and wearing a fancy jacket doesn't change that.

I see where you're coming from but I'm not entirely sure that most marines DID sign up for this.  The US army has, since vietnam, tried to be seen as a policing force... For a long time there was the feeling that the UN meant that most of their work would be blue-capped... peace keeping and the like.  I'm sure a lot of people signed up thinking they were making a difference for good in the world.

And, as Roo points out, the recruiters advertise it very well as a chance to make the most of yourself, to become self reliant, educated, assertive and to see the world... they are quick to tell you that the modern army is all about education, skills and self-betterment.

They tend not to mention the rampant PTSD problems, the suicides and the familial breakdowns which DO occur.


I do understand what you're saying, that this doesn't absolve him of a personal moral responsibility... I'm just saying that I can see clearly how such concepts can disintegrate.  More people commited suicide after the Falklands than were killed on active duty... this shows the extreme mental states that exist at a time of war and that such extreme states can persist far into peacetime.

Yes, it was horrible, it was senseless, it was cold and callous... Yet I find it difficult to blame the man on a whim, based on some standard of morality we civilians can afford.  You've got to be pretty cold to get the job done and he's in a very different place to you and I.

Even when he comes home, he will likely carry all of this with him... just like countless others he may experience guilt, self-loathing, anger and a difficulty relating to society or even his own family.  I hardly see those effects of war as voluntary.

But thats just my take.  Perhaps it is just my duty as a healthcare professional to neither blame nor absolve but just try to understand.  If I was anyone else I'd probably just kneejerk about the fate of the puppy.


~Fing Feng III

Don't get me wrong. I completely understand how fucked this guys perception of reality has had to become as an active duty Marine. I have several friends that volunteered in one branch or the other and have been (or still are) in Iraq/Afghanistan. Yes, the recruiters might be assholes that paint pretty pictures. Maybe this Marine really did think that his work would help people.

However, at the end of the whole shebang... HE signed the paperwork. HE pulls the trigger. HE threw the puppy.

Responsibility doesn't mean that he came to this point all on his own in his one insane way... it just means that the person responsible for the state of his brain, the state of his emotions and the state of that puppy... is well, Him.

[FingFeng]

So vets are absolved from civilian misbehaviors and crimes because they've been on a battlefield?

You may have missed the part where I said that I neither Absolve nor Condemn.  I just understand that this is a far bigger issue than some asshole thowing a puppy of a cliff cus he's obviously a cunt.  A lot of kids go out fresh-faced and full of optimism... and come back withdrawn angry and even suicidal.

War is a cunt.  kay?

My observation was more along the lines 'Well, we knew something like this would happen'

Sounds like they shouldn't be returning to the homeland then.

They don't.  See the falklands comment... a pretty minor skirmish, 250 dead in active duty... from those returning over 300 commited suicide, and many hundreds of families broke up because the survivors could no longer relate.

They DIDN'T come home.  They came back.  Big difference.

If we hold them to a different standard of behaviors, then they really shouldn't be melding with the rest of society, eh?  When your protector turns on you, who's going to protect you from him/her?

Exactly.

Shitty argument, sorry.

ETA:  you can understand and still condemn and disapprove.

I tell you what, you go spend some time counselling these people and then come back.  You go talk to a family where the father returned from active duty a different person and then six months down the line puts a gun in his mouth and blows the back of his skull all over the walls.

Try telling them its his own damned fault for signing up.

Trust me, the world isn't black and white.  Get some time down the sharp end... either on the front line or dealing with the human aftermath... then you can come back and lecture either side on shitty arguments.


@ratatosk:

I see exactly where you're coming from, but I don't think things are so simple.  People don't CHOOSE to lose it, people don't CHOOSE to come home and kill themselves ... people just cope the best way they can and sometimes they go over the edge.

All warefare is peppered with incidents where people have gone 'over the edge' in the moment.  And returning home many carry all the crap with them.  Like I said, it is a tough job... but not many can achieve a balance between the brutal nature of the job and staying in touch with their humane side.  Way too many need long term counselling and even psychiatric treatment.

Look at tours in Vietnam and Northern Ireland where trust was a major issue and the enemy was often invisible.  The psychological effects of those environments in particular sent even the toughest of men right over the edge... no man has an iron will.

It is therefore perhaps a little too simple to say that they should all remain mentally strong enough to excercise moral judgement...   But I agree with you that in other circumstances it is what we expect generally of people.  The problem is when they come back many have stopped seeing themselves AS people and thats where problems start.


~Fing Feng III

[Jenne]

So vets are absolved from civilian misbehaviors and crimes because they've been on a battlefield?

You may have missed the part where I said that I neither Absolve nor Condemn.  I just understand that this is a far bigger issue than some asshole thowing a puppy of a cliff cus he's obviously a cunt.  A lot of kids go out fresh-faced and full of optimism... and come back withdrawn angry and even suicidal.

War is a cunt.  kay?

My observation was more along the lines 'Well, we knew something like this would happen'

Sounds like they shouldn't be returning to the homeland then.

They don't.  See the falklands comment... a pretty minor skirmish, 250 dead in active duty... from those returning over 300 commited suicide, and many hundreds of families broke up because the survivors could no longer relate.

They DIDN'T come home.  They came back.  Big difference.

If we hold them to a different standard of behaviors, then they really shouldn't be melding with the rest of society, eh?  When your protector turns on you, who's going to protect you from him/her?

Exactly.

Shitty argument, sorry.

ETA:  you can understand and still condemn and disapprove.

I tell you what, you go spend some time counselling these people and then come back.  You go talk to a family where the father returned from active duty a different person and then six months down the line puts a gun in his mouth and blows the back of his skull all over the walls.

Try telling them its his own damned fault for signing up.

Trust me, the world isn't black and white.  Get some time down the sharp end... either on the front line or dealing with the human aftermath... then you can come back and lecture either side on shitty arguments.


~Fing Feng III

Tell you what--you go spend some time with those self-same people those soldiers are out killing, k?  *married to an Aghan*

Everytime they hear a car backfiring, they hit the floor.  My mother in law cries out in her sleep NIGHTLY because of nightmares, sleeps with her back to the motherfucking wall.  Don't go there, don't play that, "I'm the only one who knows what PTSD is like"...

ASSumations are nice, ain't they?

I live in motherfucking San Diego, my kids have to console their mates on 1) the fact their dad or mom is gone 8 to 10 months out of 12 and 2) didn't come home period and 3) came home headless and heartless.

Thing is, you start holding those guys to a different standard, and that won't bring their humanity BACK.  It's on society to hold them to that line and get them back into the fold, with therapy and apologies, sure.

But you don't cure the sickness by introducing more disease--by telling the soldiers "it's ok you kill puppies, no biggie, you've seen combat!" you've essentially reaffirmed to him that it's ok to stray over that line, time and again, because he's got pain in his head where his conscience and dignity should be.

You are excusing a bunch of people from ever returning to their families and friends and colleagues.  You are in effect separating them out from the fold rather then expecting them to rejoin--that seems like part of the problem to me, not part of the solution.

If these people are ever to get over what they've seen and done, they will need re-entry, they will need to feel a part of who they were supposedly fighting for and waiting to come back home to.

It's on the military fucks and society to help fix the disconnect they feel when they return.  That won't fucking happen by saying to them it's ok if they implode in the meantime.

[Random Probability]

I didn't say all, but war does tend to harden people and violence towards children, pets and loved ones is a sign of a growing inability to relate.  Military cousellors have to deal with this quite a lot as do civilian therapists at a time of conflict.

I was taking particular exception to the notion of troops being "desensitized" and "brainwashed".  It would me more accurate to say that they are conditioned to engage targets with their weapons.  They are left entirely on their own to deal with the emotional backlash.  Combat effectiveness is way up (from 5% effective in WWII, 50% in Korea, 80% in Vietnam to the present levels around 95%).  Most people do not want to shoot other people but to stay alive in combat you have to at some point.

I wouldn't say that combat troops are "hardened" towards violence aimed at children and other small animals.  There just comes a point where you have to cut off sensations because they hurt too damned much.  Inappropriate humor follows closely on the heels of this.  And here you have a real life example of the "I can't tell if I'm laughing or screaming" meme.

I still say the puppy isn't the issue.  The US is on a merry rampage and the guys paying for it are the ones on the front lines... when they come home, expect many more puppies thrown.

I had to deal with a lot of people (even after the Falklands for example) a few familes, relatives and the men and women themselves.  A lot of figurative puppies got thrown and a lot of families broke up as a result.

Definitely a point to consider, but a little far afield of where I was headed originally.   Just the same, I'm glad you brought it up.

Whilst I may not have your view, the view I have is certainly a considered one.

That said, I may not have aired it in the best way and for that I apologise.

~Fing Feng III

Ditto.

[Random Probability]

the US is at war with stray dogs?

I was really hoping they would invade Iran first
they've been dangling that possibility in front of me for some time now

I know you only said it for the lulz, but rabies is rampant over there.  So, yeah, we are at war with mongrel dogs.

[Thurnez Isa]

damn straight
that damn puppy was RABID
didn't you all see that rabid expression on its face?
he had to throw it off a cliff
there was no glee in his act... at all

[FingFeng]

@Random_Probability - I get you 100% on the black humour thing, sometimes you really have to laugh or you'd break down.  Thats one of the coping mechanisms we use when everything goes to shit.  Ditto 'hurting too damned much' ... I think we pretty much see eye to eye on most of this... I just tend to wave the 'anti-US foreign Policy' flag a little too much at times and it sometimes gets in the way of the issue at hand.

*takes a deep breath*

So vets are absolved from civilian misbehaviors and crimes because they've been on a battlefield?

You may have missed the part where I said that I neither Absolve nor Condemn.  I just understand that this is a far bigger issue than some asshole thowing a puppy of a cliff cus he's obviously a cunt.  A lot of kids go out fresh-faced and full of optimism... and come back withdrawn angry and even suicidal.

War is a cunt.  kay?

My observation was more along the lines 'Well, we knew something like this would happen'

Sounds like they shouldn't be returning to the homeland then.

They don't.  See the falklands comment... a pretty minor skirmish, 250 dead in active duty... from those returning over 300 commited suicide, and many hundreds of families broke up because the survivors could no longer relate.

They DIDN'T come home.  They came back.  Big difference.

If we hold them to a different standard of behaviors, then they really shouldn't be melding with the rest of society, eh?  When your protector turns on you, who's going to protect you from him/her?

Exactly.

Shitty argument, sorry.

ETA:  you can understand and still condemn and disapprove.

I tell you what, you go spend some time counselling these people and then come back.  You go talk to a family where the father returned from active duty a different person and then six months down the line puts a gun in his mouth and blows the back of his skull all over the walls.

Try telling them its his own damned fault for signing up.

Trust me, the world isn't black and white.  Get some time down the sharp end... either on the front line or dealing with the human aftermath... then you can come back and lecture either side on shitty arguments.


~Fing Feng III

Tell you what--you go spend some time with those self-same people those soldiers are out killing, k?  *married to an Aghan*

Everytime they hear a car backfiring, they hit the floor.  My mother in law cries out in her sleep NIGHTLY because of nightmares, sleeps with her back to the motherfucking wall.  Don't go there, don't play that, "I'm the only one who knows what PTSD is like"...

I didn't... I said that unless you've dealt with it in one form or another you can't say shit.

You (unlike most) have, so I expect we can recognise where each other is coming from.

ASSumations are nice, ain't they?

So, you'd rather I just jumped on the 'OMG THEY KILLED THE PUPPY - BASTARDS' bandwagon ?  You really think that would help anything ?

My point was that theres a bigger issue here than an isolated act of violence against a puppy.  Since you've made clear where you're comming from I'd expect at least a LITTLE nod of recognition before you lay into the subject.

Yet you just jump in with the 'you're talking shit' vibe and then imply I'm being an ass about this even tough you appear to agree with 90% of my argument.  Ummm... yeah... cool.

I live in motherfucking San Diego, my kids have to console their mates on 1) the fact their dad or mom is gone 8 to 10 months out of 12 and 2) didn't come home period and 3) came home headless and heartless.

The exact point I'm making... this marine may come home and blow his brains all over a wall... yet people who DONT know WTF we're talking about here see only the puppy and want to immediately assume the guy did so cus he thought it was fun... not perhaps because he may be pretty damned fucked up by it all.

Again, I'm not telling HIM he's right... I'm telling OTHERS it may be more complicated than they suspect.  So chill.

Thing is, you start holding those guys to a different standard, and that won't bring their humanity BACK.  It's on society to hold them to that line and get them back into the fold, with therapy and apologies, sure.

But you don't cure the sickness by introducing more disease--by telling the soldiers "it's ok you kill puppies, no biggie, you've seen combat!" you've essentially reaffirmed to him that it's ok to stray over that line, time and again, because he's got pain in his head where his conscience and dignity should be.

Ummm... I didn't.  I was making the point that it isn't quite so simple to see into this guys head or to expect that his value system is perfectly fine.  I'm not telling soldiers anything... I'm telling civilian kneejerkers that theres a whole deal more to this than some cunt throwing puppies for fun.  This rings heavily of early PTS.

Do you disagree, because you seem to.

You are excusing a bunch of people from ever returning to their families and friends and colleagues.  You are in effect separating them out from the fold rather then expecting them to rejoin--that seems like part of the problem to me, not part of the solution.

Now, that is bullshit.  How is seeking to understand rather than either condone or condemn going to be of any practical value to a therapist.  And I did say that I was speaking as a professional therapist.

You're telling me I should judge these people ?  Fuck off,  Most of them that come in for therapy are already judging themselves and are way full of self hate.  Yeah, I should judge them... Get real, the only way they get through is by realising that what they did is not who they are... they have to let go and they cannot, because everytime they look at their children they see burnt corpses and feel fucking responsible.

Telling them to accept responsibility is precisely what makes them want put a gun to their mouths.  I LISTEN to them, I TALK to them, I do HYPNOTHERAPY, I teach COPING techniques...

But I DO NOT ABSOLVE... if they want absolution they can go to a priest

And I DO NOT BLAME... they can find that inside of themselves, or they can go face their neatly moral compartmentalised judgemental members of the general public.

So, if that's your beef I suggest you sit down, take a deep breath, and then STFU telling me I'm enabling such attrocities because you really don't have a clue about the work I do.  And it isn't just me, my wife is a clinical psychologist with a specialisation in stress related disorders.

If these people are ever to get over what they've seen and done, they will need re-entry, they will need to feel a part of who they were supposedly fighting for and waiting to come back home to.

Well thanks for that enlightening view.

It's on the military fucks and society to help fix the disconnect they feel when they return.  That won't fucking happen by saying to them it's ok if they implode in the meantime.

See, now I started out by criticising the 'military fucks' as you put it.  I just can't help feeling that we share so much common ground here yet you just want to fight me out of anger.  You appear to know first hand the problems yet you seem to be completely polarised against me.

Where did I say it was 'okay' if some guy 'implodes' ... I didn't.  I said it is understandable that this shit happens and that he needs help and not some kneejerk reaction from the puppylover brigade (of which I am one BTW).  I really don't see how I'm advocating marines going jerko.

I really don't see where you get off...

... but I get off here.

Please feel free to continue this attack in my absence.


~Fing Feng III

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

@ratatosk:

I see exactly where you're coming from, but I don't think things are so simple.  People don't CHOOSE to lose it, people don't CHOOSE to come home and kill themselves ... people just cope the best way they can and sometimes they go over the edge.

All warefare is peppered with incidents where people have gone 'over the edge' in the moment.  And returning home many carry all the crap with them.  Like I said, it is a tough job... but not many can achieve a balance between the brutal nature of the job and staying in touch with their humane side.  Way too many need long term counselling and even psychiatric treatment.

Look at tours in Vietnam and Northern Ireland where trust was a major issue and the enemy was often invisible.  The psychological effects of those environments in particular sent even the toughest of men right over the edge... no man has an iron will.

It is therefore perhaps a little too simple to say that they should all remain mentally strong enough to excercise moral judgement...   But I agree with you that in other circumstances it is what we expect generally of people.  The problem is when they come back many have stopped seeing themselves AS people and thats where problems start.


~Fing Feng III

I'm not saying that they choose to off themselves, or that they need to be mentally strong enough to exercise moral judgement.... I'm saying that this jerk volunteered take employment with a group that is in the business of mass murder. Everything that happens afterward is directly related to that decision. His PTSD, his puppy throwing, any bloodguilt from dead arabs... all of it is HIS FUCKING RESPONSIBILITY.

Sure there are problems with the military, we've known that for 4000+ years, at least. Ancient civilizations knew that their trained killers weren't sane enough to just let back into civilian life. During the Middle Ages, the whole concept of jousting and tournaments, were specifically to keep the trained killers busy during peacetime. So yeah, training people to kill fucks up their brain and decision making skills. However, this man KNEW (or at least had access to data showing) that he might end up as some sort of inhuman monster... and he still joined. Thus his inhumae acts... are HIS RESPONSIBILITY.

We can debate the necessity of war, or the training methods or any of a thousand bits of minutia, but in the end... that puppy flying through the air is HIS RESPONSIBILITY.

[Random Probability]

You're right, I'm not making a point, and I should be.  We have a saying "What happens in the field, stays in the field".

why?

Several reasons.  First and foremost out in the field the only reason you are fighting is because of the men on either side of you.  If you can't trust those men completely then you're probably going to die.  Then there is the issue of field vs. garrison.  Essentially this means that you don't take the war home with you.  Added in to that is the practical reality that a lot of rules and regulations are put on the back burner.  Certain lapses in adherence to the UCMJ are overlooked provided that they are not repeated in garrison.

That's a brief overview, but it doesn't really even scratch the surface.  There is a lot more to it than that.  But it is also important to keep in mind that it is just a stupid phrase used to collectively deal with a host of issues.  In some ways it's like one of those shitty little bible phrases that get a lot of additional meaning heaped onto it over the ages.

Was the guy out of line?  Yeah, a little bit.

just a tiiiiiiny littlebit

WTF MAN, HE THREW A PUPPY OFF A CLIFF

and he's not even sorry for it. no he's sorry that it was shown.

also that puppy in the video sure looks sick.

Yes, he threw a puppy off a cliff as opposed to shooting it.  Wow... that's cruel alrighty...

Have you ever considered a career in veterinary medicine?  'Cause you're 3 second diagnosis from a grainy video is fawkin' awesome! [/sarcasm]

Does it make him a shithead?  Meh.  I don't know him, so I can't say for sure.  Then again, none of you can either.

of course it makes him a shithead.

how can you doubt this? even if the guy was doing the puppy a favour by killing it, any mercy-kill is supposed to show some fucking respect. it doesn't seem like he was in a particular hurry like "oshit i gotta kill this puppy right now, there's no time to do it properly, let's throw it off the cliff then", so, yes, overlooking that sort of thing is pretty much what makes people a shithead.

Right.  Mercy killings are always somber affairs followed by candle light vigils where everyone cries over what a tragedy it was.

So you think he's a shithead because he doesn't show the appropriate emotions you think he should?  Excuse me?  Just who the fuck do you think you are?  You remind me of this judge who tossed out a rape indictment because the victim didn't seem to act appropriately teary and traumatized in his courtroom.

Dude, seriously... get some perspective.

If LCpl. Motari has already faced Office Hours for the incident, prosecuting him just to satisfy the bloodlust of the folks back home is both illegal and immoral.  But this is an emotional issue, isn't it....  Or is it?

no this is about retarded persons like you that keep digging for excuses for some shithead that threw a puppy of a cliff.

No, my point is that, regardless of the facts, you and people like you will continue to believe what you want to believe just because it makes you feel morally superior to others.  It doesn't make you right.  It just makes you feel good.

[Sir Squid Diddimus]

has this guy been to iraq or afghanastan yet?
(by the way i have a girl friend whos been on duty there twice now and is fine... you know, doesnt throw puppies)
has he actually been in battle yet or just been stationed in different places?
you know... hell holes like.... Hawaii???

these are the questions i'd like to know before making the whole "war is hell" statement cause who knows if he's actually seen it yet?

[Cain]

He served in Iraq, AFAIK.  I havent checked the sources of that information, but it is widely cited and seems fairly solid.

[Thurnez Isa]

(by the way i have a girl friend whos been on duty there twice now and is fine... you know, doesnt throw puppies)

why does your girlfriend support rabies?

[Random Probability]

has this guy been to iraq or afghanastan yet?
(by the way i have a girl friend whos been on duty there twice now and is fine... you know, doesnt throw puppies)
has he actually been in battle yet or just been stationed in different places?
you know... hell holes like.... Hawaii???

these are the questions i'd like to know before making the whole "war is hell" statement cause who knows if he's actually seen it yet?

He's with 1/3  the "Lava Dogs".  They just accomplished the impossible by brining everybody home they deployed with.  They are also famous for taking the most casualties during the Battle of Falujah early in the war.  They didn't manage this latest feat by hiding behind the wire, either.  In my book that makes them pretty fucking 1337.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Yes, he threw a puppy off a cliff as opposed to shooting it.  Wow... that's cruel alrighty...

Shooting puppy = dead puppy
Throwing Puppy = Maybe Dead Puppy, Maybe broken and alive and hurting puppy

I grew up in the country. I know all about putting animals out of their misery. Throwing puppies is not a useful way of putting them out of their misery. You FAIL for even trying to make that argument.