mainstream political rant #35 - The Cult of Barack Obama

[The Good Reverend Roger]

and freedom isn't essential.

Ugh.

As for our dear RP, and Amendment XIV...IIRC, he's got beef with it, because of the way it was passed...something about being brought up for vote on the last day before the Christmas break, after most people had gone home for the holiday...something shady about it. I might be confusing that with something else though, as I can't find anything on it right now.

Amendment XIV?  It sure as hell wasn't.  Perhaps you mean amendment XVI.  And besides, congressmen aren't paid to leave a day early.
 

But they should be voluntary, damnit. Cuz then I wouldn't have to pay them.

Um, okay, but then you don't get to use the roads, or go to the hospital, or call the police, etc.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

TBH, I'm not so sure that that car is really safer because of gov't regulation, 

Then you've never seen a wreck involving 1960s cars.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Government isn't society but it's our mechanism for distributing services to our society. It's overgrown and leaning a little too far past the Fascist mark right now, but obliterating it and pretending we'll be better off without it is hardly the answer. Government is a necessary evil. The problem is that too many people have forgotten that.

At the same time, absolute freedom in the market tends to put a lot of people in the position of eating shit sandwiches for every meal, and taking all the taxes away tends to disintegrate a society to the point that even if people were willing to band together, there's nothing left to band together for.

Hm. Well, the best solution for things that are overgrown is often to cut them back ruthlessly. They might look ugly for a while, but you end up with a healthier result. And when a plant or a government is leaning too far one way, it'll often just topple over on its own. You can try propping it up, but that only works as long as the prop is there. And I might be way off base here, but I think our government, and by extension, our monetary system, is already propped up. I'm starting to get the feeling that Fascism is all that's holding it up, and we'd better come up with something else real quick, if we'd like to keep our precious freedom.

People eating shit sandwiches...happens now. Frequently. Absolute freedom in the market...I could be wrong, but I don't think it's ever been tried. Seems like that would require people having absolute freedom in the first place, and that's never happened, not even in the Land of the Free. (Absolute freedom, in my mind, being a state of having no rules or regulations.)

As for disintegrating society...and people banding together...they always will, as a matter of survival. People do not do well on their own, in general. We don't know that taking away taxes would disintegrate society either. It would definitely change it, enormously. It would almost certainly destroy our current form of government. But people will survive, and where there are people, there is society.

You seem to have contempt for personal liberty.  Why is that?

[Roo]

Government isn't society but it's our mechanism for distributing services to our society. It's overgrown and leaning a little too far past the Fascist mark right now, but obliterating it and pretending we'll be better off without it is hardly the answer. Government is a necessary evil. The problem is that too many people have forgotten that.

At the same time, absolute freedom in the market tends to put a lot of people in the position of eating shit sandwiches for every meal, and taking all the taxes away tends to disintegrate a society to the point that even if people were willing to band together, there's nothing left to band together for.

Hm. Well, the best solution for things that are overgrown is often to cut them back ruthlessly. They might look ugly for a while, but you end up with a healthier result. And when a plant or a government is leaning too far one way, it'll often just topple over on its own. You can try propping it up, but that only works as long as the prop is there. And I might be way off base here, but I think our government, and by extension, our monetary system, is already propped up. I'm starting to get the feeling that Fascism is all that's holding it up, and we'd better come up with something else real quick, if we'd like to keep our precious freedom.

People eating shit sandwiches...happens now. Frequently. Absolute freedom in the market...I could be wrong, but I don't think it's ever been tried. Seems like that would require people having absolute freedom in the first place, and that's never happened, not even in the Land of the Free. (Absolute freedom, in my mind, being a state of having no rules or regulations.)

As for disintegrating society...and people banding together...they always will, as a matter of survival. People do not do well on their own, in general. We don't know that taking away taxes would disintegrate society either. It would definitely change it, enormously. It would almost certainly destroy our current form of government. But people will survive, and where there are people, there is society.

You seem to have contempt for personal liberty.  Why is that?

Where do you get this sense of contempt from what I've written? Is it because I wrote "our precious freedom"?
I do mean that in the sense that freedom is precious. It is important, it's something worth caring about, if not fighting for. But at the same time, those who speak loudest about freedom, are often the same ones who would take others' freedom away in a heartbeat. From a more personal perspective...living in my father's house (a Marine who served in the Vietnam war), I heard one thing and experienced another. He often spoke of fighting for freedom, while tyrannizing the entire family. It's only in the last few years, since I moved out of that house, that I have begun to feel free.

That freedom often scares me. The plethora of choices available through freedom can be overwhelming. The individual responsibility of having personal liberty...means that I can no longer play the victim. For all the terror and horror of living in an abusive home, I felt safer there than I do now. Personal liberty means that there is no one else to save me. Or speak for me...or tell me what to think.

I catch myself, over and over, wanting to go back to being told what to think, what to do, and who to be. It's easier, in a twisted sort of way.    

TBH, I'm not so sure that that car is really safer because of gov't regulation, 

Then you've never seen a wreck involving 1960s cars.

Nope. Wasn't alive back then, and the only 60's cars I see nowadays are show cars.

[Roo]

And besides, congressmen aren't paid to leave a day early.

Doesn't mean they won't. 
 

But they should be voluntary, damnit. Cuz then I wouldn't have to pay them.

Um, okay, but then you don't get to use the roads, or go to the hospital, or call the police, etc.

Because apparently the price of freedom is taxes. 

I'll put it this way...I can see the need for public income to pay for public projects and services. But it's getting a bit out of hand, when I have to hand over part of my paycheck to the gov't, before I even see it. And then I have to pay taxes on the things I buy with that money. If I happen to invest part of that money, I have to pay taxes on that too. And so on.
Yet where is all that money going? Am I really benefiting from it, if I can't afford to buy and maintain a car to use on those roads...and I can't get treated at the hospital, because I don't have insurance...(don't know about calling the police, as I've never tried, but they're starting to scare me more than the criminals)...but it seems like the more cops we have, the more people become criminals.

[tyrannosaurus vex]

the price of freedom is taxes, more than it is "self-sacrifice in the name of liberty."

secondly, don't blame taxes for your inability to get ahead in life (by the way, a flat tax would only make that problem worse, anyway). your inability to afford expensive shit is caused either by your unwillingness to further your own education and workforce marketability now at the expense of instant gratification, or your employer's belief that he deserves to be paid more than you do even though you do more actual work than he does. in either case, government programs and regulations can help -- either by funding continuing education or forcing the dickbags behind the desks to pay either higher taxes or higher wages.

[Roo]

the price of freedom is taxes, more than it is "self-sacrifice in the name of liberty."

"The price of freedom is eternal vigilance"...is the quote. And that's what I'm really trying to get at. That taxpayers would be wise to pay attention to where their tax dollars are going. That citizens must keep their government in check, and make sure that those gov't programs and regulations really are helping.

Maybe I'm just talking to myself...I know I'm still ignoring a lot of what's going on in the government. After all, I still haven't made up my mind about who to vote for. I don't want any of 'em, and I believe that our method of electing the lesser of two evils has led to most of the evils in power now. I want something completely different.

secondly, don't blame taxes for your inability to get ahead in life (by the way, a flat tax would only make that problem worse, anyway). your inability to afford expensive shit is caused either by your unwillingness to further your own education and workforce marketability now at the expense of instant gratification, or your employer's belief that he deserves to be paid more than you do even though you do more actual work than he does. in either case, government programs and regulations can help -- either by funding continuing education or forcing the dickbags behind the desks to pay either higher taxes or higher wages.

Wait a minute. Don't blame taxes for your inability to get ahead in life...but pay your taxes so that the government can help you get ahead. I'm confused. 

I'm blaming taxes for the government that we have right now. I'm saying that we fund it with every purchase we make, loan, investment and cent we earn. Not for my inability to get ahead in life. That has a lot more to do with unwillingness to perform, than the taxes I'm (not) paying. And no government program is going to help that, without seriously infringing on personal liberty.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Where do you get this sense of contempt from what I've written? Is it because I wrote "our precious freedom"?
I do mean that in the sense that freedom is precious. It is important, it's something worth caring about, if not fighting for. But at the same time, those who speak loudest about freedom, are often the same ones who would take others' freedom away in a heartbeat.

Not true.  I screech the loudest, and I have no desire to take anyone's freedom away.

From a more personal perspective...living in my father's house (a Marine who served in the Vietnam war), I heard one thing and experienced another. He often spoke of fighting for freedom, while tyrannizing the entire family. It's only in the last few years, since I moved out of that house, that I have begun to feel free.

Not the same issue.  Parental control does not equal lack of habeas corpus, etc.

That freedom often scares me. The plethora of choices available through freedom can be overwhelming. The individual responsibility of having personal liberty...means that I can no longer play the victim. For all the terror and horror of living in an abusive home, I felt safer there than I do now. Personal liberty means that there is no one else to save me. Or speak for me...or tell me what to think.

1.  Freedom isn't supposed to be safe.

2.  Freedom isn't possible without the rule of law.

Nope. Wasn't alive back then, and the only 60's cars I see nowadays are show cars.

In the 60s & 70s, you'd have a head on collision, and there'd hardly be a mark on the cars...but everyone inside would be dead.

Nowdays, the cars collapse and disperse all the impact.  The car is totalled, and everyone is standing around exchanging insurance info.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Because apparently the price of freedom is taxes. 

Yep.  No taxes means no governing authority.  No governing authority means no rule of law.  No rule of law means no freedom.  It's back to the jungle, with the strong tyrannizing the weak.

I'll put it this way...I can see the need for public income to pay for public projects and services. But it's getting a bit out of hand, when I have to hand over part of my paycheck to the gov't, before I even see it. And then I have to pay taxes on the things I buy with that money. If I happen to invest part of that money, I have to pay taxes on that too. And so on.

Yep.  A modern nation of 300,000,000+ people costs money to run.  I am not saying they don't waste a bunch, but that's the nature of bureaucracy.  And bureaucracy is your best defense against tyranny (it's really hard to get them to change their ways to suit an autocrat).

Yet where is all that money going? Am I really benefiting from it, if I can't afford to buy and maintain a car to use on those roads...and I can't get treated at the hospital, because I don't have insurance...(don't know about calling the police, as I've never tried, but they're starting to scare me more than the criminals)...but it seems like the more cops we have, the more people become criminals.

Imposition of order imposes disorder.  We all know this.

But:

1.  Your toilet works.
2.  Your garbage is collected.  If you've ever seen a New York garbage strike, you'll instantly understand how vital this is.
3.  The roads are there.  Without roads, you starve (do you have any idea how much work it takes to get food into cities?).
4.  Ambulance.
5.  Hospital emergency rooms HAVE to treat you, regardless of your ability to pay.
6.  Fire department.
7.  Police (Don't like 'em?  Move to Somalia.  They don't have any.  Let us know how that works out).
8.  Military.  Currently misused, but necessary.
9.  Power available on demand.
10.  Fresh water on demand.

Etc.  I could go on, if you'd like.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

the price of freedom is taxes, more than it is "self-sacrifice in the name of liberty."

secondly, don't blame taxes for your inability to get ahead in life (by the way, a flat tax would only make that problem worse, anyway).

Fuck yes it would.  A flat tax is nothing more than a method of ensuring a permanent aristocracy and a permanent serf class.

And don't even get me started on that "fair tax" bullshit.

[tyrannosaurus vex]

discordianism can't be a real religion, because unlike any other religion, when you join a bunch of them and assume they all think like you do, you're always wrong.

[B_M_W]

Nope. Wasn't alive back then, and the only 60's cars I see nowadays are show cars.

In the 60s & 70s, you'd have a head on collision, and there'd hardly be a mark on the cars...but everyone inside would be dead.

Nowdays, the cars collapse and disperse all the impact.  The car is totalled, and everyone is standing around exchanging insurance info.

This is the correct physicscycle.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Nope. Wasn't alive back then, and the only 60's cars I see nowadays are show cars.

In the 60s & 70s, you'd have a head on collision, and there'd hardly be a mark on the cars...but everyone inside would be dead.

Nowdays, the cars collapse and disperse all the impact.  The car is totalled, and everyone is standing around exchanging insurance info.

This is the correct physicscycle.

That's why I laugh when retards buy huge, high center of gravity SUVs, because they're "safer".

[LMNO]

All this reminds me of people in the suburbs bitching about how they don't want to pay property taxes to fund the schools because they don't have any children who go to those schools.

Then they act shocked when a fifth grader can't find the US on a world map.

[AFK]

Show me someone who is worried about their taxes limiting their freedom and I'll show you someone who is way overextended on credit cards and someone who probably took out one of those fancy-pants mortgages that is causing the economy to melt before our very eyes.

It's called budgeting people.  If the taxes are putting that much of a crimp on your style, perhaps your style is more than you can afford.