Author Topic: Victim mentality  (Read 43126 times)

Cain

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Re: Victim mentality
« Reply #165 on: May 14, 2008, 11:03:43 am »
German Nazis in particular seem to lead exceptionally long lives.  Compare the great German thinker Hans Morgenthau with the Nazi Jurist Carl Schmitt, for example.

and von Münchhausen...

The poet?

Schmitt in particular annoys me.  Because he wasn't even really a Nazi, he was a scumbag opportunist who sold his soul to work for Hitler, when it was well within his means to leave the country (like his friend Leo Strauss did).  His pre-Nazi work was aimed at preventing either a Nazi or Communist takeover by urging Von Papen and Hindenburg to activate Article 48 and round up all the dissidents, but as soon as 1933 rolled around, he sold out.

And then, he went on to live another 40 odd years and have a malign influence on US right wing politics.  Much of the legal underpinning of the War on Terror can be traced back to his writings, invoking an idea of executive emergency privilege which is allegedly necessary for the state to defend itself.  So NSA wiretaps, the suspension of haebus corpus, torture etc are partly his fault.

Meanwhile the likes of Morgenthau had to put up with being targeted by scum like Nixon (Morgenthau, ironically perhaps, was also a Jewish German who had fled the country in 1937 for the USA), and have his best ideas appropriated by blockheads like Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt.  And then die relatively young.  Their lives are strangely parallel, yet opposing, which is why I like to contrast their experiences.

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Re: Victim mentality
« Reply #166 on: May 14, 2008, 04:53:54 pm »
So here is a question...

If there are still those out there (yes I KNOW we are talking radical groups) who continue with the persecution of the jews, blacks, hispanics and other races or religions.  Aren't those people still in the position of being victims?  Or does that make it an individual thing?

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Re: Victim mentality
« Reply #167 on: May 14, 2008, 05:02:43 pm »
German Nazis in particular seem to lead exceptionally long lives.  Compare the great German thinker Hans Morgenthau with the Nazi Jurist Carl Schmitt, for example.

and von Münchhausen...

The poet?

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Re: Victim mentality
« Reply #168 on: May 14, 2008, 08:02:34 pm »
So here is a question...

If there are still those out there (yes I KNOW we are talking radical groups) who continue with the persecution of the jews, blacks, hispanics and other races or religions.  Aren't those people still in the position of being victims?  Or does that make it an individual thing?

It doesn't work that way.  We have determined in this thread that organizations are artificial logical constructs that don't actually exist.  It's just people.  So there can't be any "radical groups" to do the persecution and there are no such things as "jews", "blacks", "hispanics" or even any races or religions.  None of them are organized in any way, so you can't refer to them in a coherent fashion.

Racism and Prejudice solved ITT

The Good Reverend Roger

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Re: Victim mentality
« Reply #169 on: May 14, 2008, 08:17:03 pm »


It doesn't work that way.  We have determined in this thread that organizations are artificial logical constructs that don't actually exist. 

No we fucking haven't.

It's just people.  So there can't be any "radical groups" to do the persecution and there are no such things as "jews", "blacks", "hispanics" or even any races or religions.  None of them are organized in any way, so you can't refer to them in a coherent fashion.

Ivory tower bullshit.  James Byrd Jr would tell you the same thing.

Racism and Prejudice solved ITT

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Re: Victim mentality
« Reply #170 on: May 14, 2008, 09:10:59 pm »
Oops, I forgot to add [/sarcasm] at the end there.....


 :lulz: :lulz: :lulz:

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Re: Victim mentality
« Reply #171 on: May 14, 2008, 11:46:17 pm »
So here is a question...

If there are still those out there (yes I KNOW we are talking radical groups) who continue with the persecution of the jews, blacks, hispanics and other races or religions.  Aren't those people still in the position of being victims?  Or does that make it an individual thing?

Well, even if the aggression and the plain outspoken racism wasn't such a threath to call minorities persecuted....
Do the majority look down on 'em?Do they earn less than the average?Are they considered rude?Or unclean?Or...?
Nazi-like persecutions are still carried on by some people, but are not institutionalized.Still I think that governments and "the silent majority" have much to do...So yes,I think racials  minorities,homosexuals of course and to some degree women too are "victims".Of a "white collar" style of discrimination, of course, but still...
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Re: Victim mentality
« Reply #172 on: August 24, 2010, 05:29:30 pm »
Bump...because it appeared as a random thread on the front page and I found it very interesting because I'm currently dealing with this victim mentality from my mother (who'd have thought). 

It's like she uses a victim mentality to keep herself 'humble' but it just reinforces worry and insecurity --which seems very strange to me since it appears as an egotistical reason for being humble. 

well not to digress too much on my old lady.  I wonder if this same pattern plays out in groups. the victimhood to stay humble or moral.

BabylonHoruv

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Re: Victim mentality
« Reply #173 on: August 25, 2010, 01:42:47 am »
As for their right to bitch and moan, fuck them.  Yeah, they got butt hurt by the Nazis.  I bet that sucked, but it's no worse than what they've done to others.  In fact, reading up on what they did to the Canaanites, what Hitler's boys did was the equivalent of a schoolyard prank.  So, no, they have no right to bitch.  Not then, not now, not ever.

More to the point, if they truly were being victimized they would keep their filthy mouths shut.  Since they don't it is painfully obvious that they are no longer being oppressed, abused, persecuted, or bulldozed into mass graves.
Fuck you. Name one nation with military supremacy that didn't massacre its enemies[citation needed] like the Israelites did the Canaanites.
Comparing that with the Holocaust isn't bigoted, it's just retarded. What you're saying is that me and my family shouldn't complain about my grandma's little brother being hauled off to Poland from his home in Germany and gassed to death, because a few hundred generations ago people with a precursor to my sister's religion and possibly some genetic material of ours conquered and massacred another people (or whatever they did.) Even if that weren't simply the thing you do after conquering someone back then - which I think it was - the comparison is stupid.
But you're just trolling me, right?

*sigh*  No, I wasn't trolling you.  However, I am reconsidering since I find your selective myopia highly amusing.

Excuse me, shitneck, but what part of "genocide" do you not fucking understand?  Are you saying it's okay because "everybody" did it?  If it's okay for the Powers That Be to carry out holocausts, then what the fuck are you complaining about?  "Everybody does it".  Just because it hadn't been done in...  I dunno, ten or twenty years, doesn't mean it isn't still a perfectly valid and legal government program.

Idiot.

10 or 20? Nah, its just that no one in the First World has pulled that shit for the past 20 years... go ask the Tutsi what they think about genocide well, those lucky enough not to be one of the 800,000 that died in 1994.

Generally they think it's something that should be done to the Hutu.
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BabylonHoruv

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Re: Victim mentality
« Reply #174 on: August 25, 2010, 01:47:16 am »
Is it so difficult to believe that the majority of a nation would do something as horrible as buying into the crazy rhetoric of a political party because it promised to relieve them of the responsibility for their lives?

Not when I see it happening all over again. :sad:

What you are saying is roughly this: Oh it happened, and it was so horrible. No, humans would not do that without provocation. Lets dig into the past of the victims and see if they are really as blameless as the pretend to be.

People do not become victims of crimes because they where somehow "blameless" and being murdered is not some kind of retroactive canonization. I agree that the black/white view is as popular as it is tiresome but you are, in your way, buying into it too.

And finally, you are confusing layers of reality. Tempting as it is to simplify things, a nation is not just some kind of bigger individual. Just because people here find excuses to rip each other apart every now and then it does not follow that everybody who was the victim of an atrocity deserved it in some way.

To clarify: I think the Holocaust was the worst thing that any humans have ever done to other humans in recorded history. The Jews (and gays, gypsies, etc.) did nothing to deserve what happened to them. They were victimized, brutally, and we (the entire world) is still recovering from it.

Perhaps it is simplifying things too much to treat a nation as an individual, but that nation was made up of millions of individuals. Those individuals were part of families, and those families were part of communities, and those communities were part larger groups, and so on up to the level of the nation. It's not that much of a stretch to say that if something is traumatic to one person, and that if affects those around them for several generations, then something that is traumatic to millions of people will effect most of humanity for quite some time afterwards.

What I'm saying is that it happened, it was so horrible that most of us can't even comprehend what happened or why, and that there was a history of bloodshed for thousands of years before the Holocaust, that did have something to do with why it happened. I'm saying that if we wish to understand what happened, the first place to look is history, and see what happened before this. And if we want to prevent such a horrid thing from ever happening again, we'd be wise to learn our history well.

But, learning our history means seeing the bad parts. It means accepting the really nasty shit that humans have done to one another over the eons. It means that our people (whoever they may be) were not the heroes we've always thought they were. It also means that even when we've been victimized by others, we still have the choice to remain victims or rise above it. Still further, it means that we have the choice to treat someone who has been victimized as either a victim or a survivor. Victims always need help. They are assumed to be incapable of taking care of themselves, or having responsibility for their own lives. They are often treated like children, needing to be coddled and cared for, not allowed to make their own choices, or expected to do things on their own. Survivors are usually perceived as strong and capable. They are expected to continue their lives, making their own choices and only getting help if they ask for it. It's the difference between giving a man a fish and teaching him to fish.

Moreover, I believe that it is this victim mentality that has led to "the majority of a nation [doing] something as horrible as buying into the crazy rhetoric of a political party because it promised to relieve them of the responsibility for their lives". If I'm a victim, and he's a victim, and you're a victim too...then it's okay for someone else to make all the decisions to keep us safe and secure, and we don't have to worry about little things like freedom and prosperity.

The Holocaust has a lot of mythic resonance.  I would argue that what the US did to the Natives was worse, Largely because it lasted a lot longer.  If we consider the Bible as recorded history I would also say that the Jewish behavior to the Canaanites was worse, because they were wiped out completely.  That's not a matter of the Nazi intentions being less evil, just that they didn't do as good a job of it.
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Re: Victim mentality
« Reply #175 on: November 06, 2010, 04:53:51 am »
hungry victims :oops:
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Re: Victim mentality
« Reply #176 on: November 06, 2010, 06:29:40 pm »
Oh l love reading good stuff I've missed.
This is great, Cain.

It's delightfully easy to get people in a tizzy by pushing that button. That mentality gets right behind people's glands.
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Re: Victim mentality
« Reply #177 on: March 06, 2012, 04:52:05 pm »
As for their right to bitch and moan, fuck them.  Yeah, they got butt hurt by the Nazis.  I bet that sucked, but it's no worse than what they've done to others.  In fact, reading up on what they did to the Canaanites, what Hitler's boys did was the equivalent of a schoolyard prank.  So, no, they have no right to bitch.  Not then, not now, not ever.

More to the point, if they truly were being victimized they would keep their filthy mouths shut.  Since they don't it is painfully obvious that they are no longer being oppressed, abused, persecuted, or bulldozed into mass graves.
Fuck you. Name one nation with military supremacy that didn't massacre its enemies[citation needed] like the Israelites did the Canaanites.
Comparing that with the Holocaust isn't bigoted, it's just retarded. What you're saying is that me and my family shouldn't complain about my grandma's little brother being hauled off to Poland from his home in Germany and gassed to death, because a few hundred generations ago people with a precursor to my sister's religion and possibly some genetic material of ours conquered and massacred another people (or whatever they did.) Even if that weren't simply the thing you do after conquering someone back then - which I think it was - the comparison is stupid.
But you're just trolling me, right?

*sigh*  No, I wasn't trolling you.  However, I am reconsidering since I find your selective myopia highly amusing.

Excuse me, shitneck, but what part of "genocide" do you not fucking understand?  Are you saying it's okay because "everybody" did it?  If it's okay for the Powers That Be to carry out holocausts, then what the fuck are you complaining about?  "Everybody does it".  Just because it hadn't been done in...  I dunno, ten or twenty years, doesn't mean it isn't still a perfectly valid and legal government program.

Idiot.

Bump.
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Re: Victim mentality
« Reply #178 on: March 07, 2012, 12:29:00 am »
What the shit is this?  :lulz:
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Re: Victim mentality
« Reply #179 on: March 08, 2012, 06:34:38 pm »
The new de-lurked guy, arguing that some Bible story justified the Holocaust.

can't find anything else about "what the Israelites did to the Canaanites" except for the Bible (and Torah) bits--probably because the Israelites were indigenous Canaanites from the beginning (there was no Exodus).

So I suppose one local Canaan tribe murdered a bunch of others. Which is bad, but it's also over two millennia ago.


I wonder, what if someone got the insane idea to systematically kill or all Hutus--there might be people saying they had it coming for killing all those Tutsis in '94-'95. But those people would be insane and horrible people.
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