Frequently asked questions..

[Elder Iptuous]

it sounds like in this discussion that chaos order and disorder are being defined only in the context of our perceptions?  that they are only map, and that they aren't inherent in territory?
am i getting the correct impression?  'cause i don't see why that's the case...

[AFK]

Actually, I think RWHN and Cram are saying CHAOS is the state of potential and uncertainty.


So, while Things can be Ordered or Disordered within a Set, the ability to choose multiple Sets for the same Things is CHAOS.

Yeah, I was questioning whether Chaos can be begot by one of its offsprings, Order.  But of course I was forgetting that CHAOS always is.  Whether or not the candies were put into the bag in an orderly process, the candies still are existing in a state of CHAOS with the potential of either becoming a disorderly mess of candies on a floor, or an orderly state of melted into a chocolate bunny.  

[LMNO]

it sounds like in this discussion that chaos order and disorder are being defined only in the context of our perceptions?  that they are only map, and that they aren't inherent in territory?
am i getting the correct impression?  'cause i don't see why that's the case...

Do go on... I've been relating this to standard Discordian Catma, which calls Order and Disorder Illusions.

I'm willing to discuss it in other terms, if you can lay them out for me.

[Adios]

it sounds like in this discussion that chaos order and disorder are being defined only in the context of our perceptions?  that they are only map, and that they aren't inherent in territory?
am i getting the correct impression?  'cause i don't see why that's the case...

Do go on... I've been relating this to standard Discordian Catma, which calls Order and Disorder Illusions.

I'm willing to discuss it in other terms, if you can lay them out for me.

What about things humans have no hand in? Is the end result still in our perceptions?

[LMNO]

Example?

[AFK]

The best way to provide M&M's in a chaotic way would be to stuff them all in your mouth, chew them a bit and then open your mouth.

I agree with Cram and RWHN on the view of Chaos being No Pattern, (Gnopats, like Gnosis with less fap). I also think LMNO hit it on the head with the point that order and disorder are in the perception of the observer...

The correct answer to the M&M question then, would be to separate them all into different groups, put them back together, make new groups, put them back together, make yet another grouping, put them back together etc... by ordering, disordering and reordering the Chaos of the M&M's becomes apparent.

Wouldn't it be more precise to day that disorder is no pattern.  and order is pattern?  And both come from Chaos?  Chaos is the way the stuff was before we interpreted its state with our minds and applied any kind of work or force to them?  

[LMNO]

I'd go along with that, RWHN.

[Adios]

Example?

Back to my volcano example. If it erupts is it disorder or simply ordered volcano activity or is the result depending on our perceptions?

[AFK]

it sounds like in this discussion that chaos order and disorder are being defined only in the context of our perceptions?  that they are only map, and that they aren't inherent in territory?
am i getting the correct impression?  'cause i don't see why that's the case...

Do go on... I've been relating this to standard Discordian Catma, which calls Order and Disorder Illusions.

I'm willing to discuss it in other terms, if you can lay them out for me.

What about things humans have no hand in? Is the end result still in our perceptions?

I would think so.  Because all three concepts, Chaos, Order, and Disorder are conceptualizations we, mankind, came up with.  The concept of Chaos, probably gets closest to the idea of what the universe really is before we start thinking about it, but for all we know, could be completely off.  But we don't have the faculties to comprehend information in a manner that would get us any closer.  

[LMNO]

Example?

Back to my volcano example. If it erupts is it disorder or simply ordered volcano activity or is the result depending on our perceptions?

In one Set, it is ordered because it is following the physical laws of heat and pressure and gelology.

In another Set, it is disordered because we have incomplete information on the moment-to-moment behavior of the terrain, and cannot predict where the magma will erupt.

In a third Set, it is ordered because we know that the lava will flow downhill.

In a fourth Set, it is disordered because we don't know exactly how it will flow.

Etc.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

it sounds like in this discussion that chaos order and disorder are being defined only in the context of our perceptions?  that they are only map, and that they aren't inherent in territory?
am i getting the correct impression?  'cause i don't see why that's the case...

I think this may be sound in many ways... not only may order and disorder be illusions, but the terms themselves may be nothing more than map labels.

The best way to provide M&M's in a chaotic way would be to stuff them all in your mouth, chew them a bit and then open your mouth.

I agree with Cram and RWHN on the view of Chaos being No Pattern, (Gnopats, like Gnosis with less fap). I also think LMNO hit it on the head with the point that order and disorder are in the perception of the observer...

The correct answer to the M&M question then, would be to separate them all into different groups, put them back together, make new groups, put them back together, make yet another grouping, put them back together etc... by ordering, disordering and reordering the Chaos of the M&M's becomes apparent.

Wouldn't it be more precise to day that disorder is no pattern.  and order is pattern?  And both come from Chaos?  Chaos is the way the stuff was before we interpreted its state with our minds and applied any kind of work or force to them?  

Disorder could be 'no pattern'... but we'd might have to modify that to be "No pattern that I perceive'.

The pattern or lack thereof would depend on the ingenuity of the observer (ie Law of Fives). So in that sense disorder, or order would always be subjective.

[Adios]

it sounds like in this discussion that chaos order and disorder are being defined only in the context of our perceptions?  that they are only map, and that they aren't inherent in territory?
am i getting the correct impression?  'cause i don't see why that's the case...

Do go on... I've been relating this to standard Discordian Catma, which calls Order and Disorder Illusions.

I'm willing to discuss it in other terms, if you can lay them out for me.

What about things humans have no hand in? Is the end result still in our perceptions?

I would think so.  Because all three concepts, Chaos, Order, and Disorder are conceptualizations we, mankind, came up with.  The concept of Chaos, probably gets closest to the idea of what the universe really is before we start thinking about it, but for all we know, could be completely off.  But we don't have the faculties to comprehend information in a manner that would get us any closer.  

Attempted definition;

Chaos = Normal state of existence.

Order = Human perception of discernable patterns.

Disorder = Lack of Human perception of discernable patterns.

Result = Humans trying with limited capacity to make sense of their surroundings

[LMNO]

That seems to align with the way I understand it.

[Elder Iptuous]

Do go on... I've been relating this to standard Discordian Catma, which calls Order and Disorder Illusions.

I'm willing to discuss it in other terms, if you can lay them out for me.

a pattern is a repeating metric, right?  does this not hold whether or not it is discovered by our perceptions?

i always took the illusion/delusion thing to mean that an insistence on the primacy of one over the other is false, since it is all chaos at the root...  for instance, with the starbuck's pebbles.  there is a pattern there in their geometry.  insisting that the pattern takes precedence over their simply being there as the chaos would have it is the illusion...

Wouldn't it be more precise to day that disorder is no pattern.  and order is pattern?  And both come from Chaos?  Chaos is the way the stuff was before we interpreted its state with our minds and applied any kind of work or force to them?  

That's the way i see it...

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Do go on... I've been relating this to standard Discordian Catma, which calls Order and Disorder Illusions.

I'm willing to discuss it in other terms, if you can lay them out for me.

a pattern is a repeating metric, right?  does this not hold whether or not it is discovered by our perceptions?

i always took the illusion/delusion thing to mean that an insistence on the primacy of one over the other is false, since it is all chaos at the root...  for instance, with the starbuck's pebbles.  there is a pattern there in their geometry.  insisting that the pattern takes precedence over their simply being there as the chaos would have it is the illusion...

Wouldn't it be more precise to day that disorder is no pattern.  and order is pattern?  And both come from Chaos?  Chaos is the way the stuff was before we interpreted its state with our minds and applied any kind of work or force to them?  

That's the way i see it...

A perceived pattern... that is 'there is a pattern if you consider the geometric layout to be a pattern based on your perception of the world'. If the person looking at Starbucks Pebbles had never seen a pentagon or a pentagram (let's say some poor caveman), would they see a pattern... would there be a pattern?