ITT I edit a new edition of the BIP pamphlet

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

It's when they're not choosing what they want their life to be,
that they seem imprisoned to me.

I'm thinking I will write a prologue to the pamphlet, in which this here discussion takes place in a bar, paraphrased to a degree, and abridged.

I love this idea!

Also, I like the idea of a whole bunch of short blurbs from people about how THEY perceive the BIP... what it means to them. The definitions would all be so interestingly different that I think it would help the reader go into reading the BIP with a very open mind in terms of interpreting each story.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Because, ultimately, there is nothing outside the BIP.

Yep, and that's where I have to disagree. I prefer absurdism to nihilism. 

[Payne]

Because, ultimately, there is nothing outside the BIP.

Yep, and that's where I have to disagree. I prefer absurdism to nihilism. 

Wonko the Sane from HHGTTG.

This is what this debate reminds me of.

Do you also live outside the asylum?

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Because, ultimately, there is nothing outside the BIP.

Yep, and that's where I have to disagree. I prefer absurdism to nihilism. 

Wonko the Sane from HHGTTG.

This is what this debate reminds me of.

Do you also live outside the asylum?

Heh, those little green winged angels freak me the fuck out...

So, if there's nothing outside of the BiP, then how exactly is it a prison?
Why should we bother changing the bars, if they won't expose us to something outside of our prison?
How do you know that there IS nothing outside the prison? Have you broken out?

I mean, to me it sounds like a bad trip.

[Payne]

Because, ultimately, there is nothing outside the BIP.

Yep, and that's where I have to disagree. I prefer absurdism to nihilism. 

Wonko the Sane from HHGTTG.

This is what this debate reminds me of.

Do you also live outside the asylum?

Heh, those little green winged angels freak me the fuck out...

So, if there's nothing outside of the BiP, then how exactly is it a prison?
Why should we bother changing the bars, if they won't expose us to something outside of our prison?
How do you know that there IS nothing outside the prison? Have you broken out?

I mean, to me it sounds like a bad trip.

It is impossible to prove either way that there is anything outside the paradigm of the BIP, would perhaps be a better way to put it. If we start constructing concepts entirely on faith, then we are no better than any organised religion. We're no better off either.

Why bother changing the bars? Because that's all we can do. That's what we have to work with. We can appeal to a "higher power" (something from outside the BIP) to help change things more to our liking, but ultimately, it's down to us to do the changing. We can control the bars, to some degree, because we understand them, to some degree. We cannot understand anything outside the BIP because the limits of that concept are the limits of human perception. And not being in control is the ultimate abrogation of freedom.

You don't break out of the BIP, technically, because we cannot expand our perceptions beyond it's limits. We CAN break out of our little cells though. Or at the very least make them more comfortable. It is the understanding of the limits of what we can do, not an imposed limit, that I strive for. I don't dream of walking outside in the "free air" or whatever you can think of as being outside the BIP. I dream of understanding my limits, and maximising them.

It's not about imprisonment, it's about empowerment. It's not about bumming people out with dark, nihilistic philosophy. It's about showing them the toolkit we have made, and telling them that they can use it as they wish to make their world a better place.

So I disagree that it's a bad trip, I think it's a realistic and achievable method of choosing your own trip.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Because, ultimately, there is nothing outside the BIP.

Yep, and that's where I have to disagree. I prefer absurdism to nihilism. 

Wonko the Sane from HHGTTG.

This is what this debate reminds me of.

Do you also live outside the asylum?

Heh, those little green winged angels freak me the fuck out...

So, if there's nothing outside of the BiP, then how exactly is it a prison?
Why should we bother changing the bars, if they won't expose us to something outside of our prison?
How do you know that there IS nothing outside the prison? Have you broken out?

I mean, to me it sounds like a bad trip.

It is impossible to prove either way that there is anything outside the paradigm of the BIP, would perhaps be a better way to put it. If we start constructing concepts entirely on faith, then we are no better than any organised religion. We're no better off either.

Why bother changing the bars? Because that's all we can do. That's what we have to work with. We can appeal to a "higher power" (something from outside the BIP) to help change things more to our liking, but ultimately, it's down to us to do the changing. We can control the bars, to some degree, because we understand them, to some degree. We cannot understand anything outside the BIP because the limits of that concept are the limits of human perception. And not being in control is the ultimate abrogation of freedom.

You don't break out of the BIP, technically, because we cannot expand our perceptions beyond it's limits. We CAN break out of our little cells though. Or at the very least make them more comfortable. It is the understanding of the limits of what we can do, not an imposed limit, that I strive for. I don't dream of walking outside in the "free air" or whatever you can think of as being outside the BIP. I dream of understanding my limits, and maximising them.

It's not about imprisonment, it's about empowerment. It's not about bumming people out with dark, nihilistic philosophy. It's about showing them the toolkit we have made, and telling them that they can use it as they wish to make their world a better place.

So I disagree that it's a bad trip, I think it's a realistic and achievable method of choosing your own trip.

Well, there we have it... a brief wrap up for Verbatim on this old dead horse.

Oh and I found my old post I mentioned before: http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=15805.0

Until next time Payne...

[Payne]

Well, there we have it... a brief wrap up for Verbatim on this old dead horse.

Oh and I found my old post I mentioned before: http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=15805.0

Until next time Payne...

A pleasure, as always.

[Golden Applesauce]

I like to think of the BIP as a little cell in a big prison.  At some point you can realize that you're free to just open the door and leave your cell, kick out the warden, and then rename the penitentiary whatever the fuck you want to, and rule over your own little kingdom.  You're still technically in a jail, only it's your jail, and it had better listen to whatever you have to say or there will be consequences.  After that, the problem is more with interior decorating - you're free to live in whatever you want. (or not, if you like the idea of eternal oblivion.)

I agree with that the BIP needs a rewrite.  If I can get off my ass I'll long enough I'll make a Golden Applesauce edit too.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

I like to think of the BIP as a little cell in a big prison.  At some point you can realize that you're free to just open the door and leave your cell, kick out the warden, and then rename the penitentiary whatever the fuck you want to, and rule over your own little kingdom.  You're still technically in a jail, only it's your jail, and it had better listen to whatever you have to say or there will be consequences.  After that, the problem is more with interior decorating - you're free to live in whatever you want. (or not, if you like the idea of eternal oblivion.)

I agree with that the BIP needs a rewrite.  If I can get off my ass I'll long enough I'll make a Golden Applesauce edit too.

I think I tried a metaphor like that, sort of Be Your Own Warden kinda thing... not bad

[ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞]

Okay spags, my insatiable urge to edit anything comprising of or resembling Enlgish has come to a head. ITT you will say what you would like to see in a new, revised and expanded edition of the BIP pamphlet, and I will put it together, at least as far as text (I can do layout pretty well, in total amateur terms - any more serious volunteers, Net?)

I will not be making the pamphlet all that much longer. I might add a few pieces, but the idea is to produce a more complete, more interesting work - not a fucking novel. (For my so-called novel, see that other thread.)

I might however try to edit the current content rather in-depth. LMNO suggested in the criticism thread that the pamphlet should emphasize that each and every one of us is just as fucked and bound as the next cabbage - other ideas of similar nature are welcome.

I can help you fine tune the layout file so everything prints as you intended, but I'm currently absorbed in too many paying and nonpaying projects at the moment to take on the entire thing.

[Requia ☣]

I like the metaphor that the BIP cannot be escaped, only changed.  Being able to 'change the cell' at will might be equivilent to freedom, but if we *stop* self anylizing we just end up with a new set of preconceptions.

[Cainad (dec.)]

Like I said, it's all a matter of what phenomenon you choose to apply the metaphor to. Let us ignore for a moment the "optimistic" versus the "pessimistic" interpretation, because that's just another Bar (whether you like the "happy-happy-joy-joy" or "if angels could see into my soul they would die" attitude is your own stinking prejudice, and has no bearing on Reality).

On one hand, we have the notion that the BIP is the state of unawareness about our mental limitations. This is the correct interpretation.

On the other hand, we have the notion that the bars of the BIP are our mental limitations, and the aforementioned state of unawareness is simply a byproduct of being in the "cell" one's whole life and thus being unaware of it. This is also the correct interpretation.

The first correct interpretation suggests a "cell" that the reader breaks out of once they grasp the concept of the inescapable mental limitations presented in the second correct interpretation. The second correct interpretation suggests a "cell" that cannot be broken out of at all because of biological limitations, and merely becoming aware of this version of the "cell" is equivalent to escaping the "cell" of unawareness suggested in the first correct interpretation.

This spag concludes that the metaphor is equally applicable to both schools of thought, and is inherently limited unless we want to fight over which way to interpret it. This ambiguity and confusion makes the metaphor fantastically, excellently Discordian.

[Verbal Mike]

I think most of the additional material in my edit will be from this thread. This discussion can give a lot of perspective to the pamphlet.

[AFK]

I think what would help the BIP metaphor is to tie in the discussion about Paths. 

I say that because ultimately, I believe, it's the paths that we choose in life that are the bar changers, and therefore, that which allows us to move from cell to cell. 

The first step is as outlined by LMNO in his opening piece of the BIP pamphlet.  Until you are aware of how your biology, environment, and past experiences shape you, you have less power over where you are going because you aren't seeing the whole picture.  You aren't seeing where maybe some aspect of your biology, one of your bars, is causing you to behave or live in a certain fashion. 

So, once your cell comes into focus, once you recognize you are where you are, you can then navigate as appropriate.  As you navigate, you can reconstruct some of your bars, or perhaps tear some down and replace them with new ones.  For example, you recognize that you've essentially been a lazy person all of your life, and have just sort of coasted along.  With recognition of that, one can become more concerted and focused in their day to day behavior.  This can open new doors, as one who is motivated tends to be able to easier achieve goals and aspirations. 

You will still have limits.  Our biology can only take us so far.  We can only tap into our minds to a certain point.  There are laws of physics that we cannot overcome.  We have limits in what we can perceive at one time and over a lifetime. 

As I've discussed in the past, I essentially see two boundaries.  There is the boundary of Reality, but of course since we can't perceive all of Reality, there's really no way to determine the shape and scope of that boundary.  The other boundary is that which is comprised of our human limitations.  The aforementioned biology, mental capacities, perception capacities, etc.  It is absolute that we cannot transcend our humanity.  (If it ever turns out that we can, then everything we've known up until that point has been a sham anyway) 

This, to me, it the Prison.  But it isn't a restrictive Prison, per se.  It's restrictive in the sense that we cannot pierce the boundary, but there is really nothing in our human faculties that would allow us to get past the boundary.  That's just the way it is.  HOWEVER, we still have Freedom.  We have the Freedom of moving within the confines of our humanity.  I think the issue we've discussed is that some, by their actions and behavior, limit their Sphere of Possibility to a tiny ball.  But if they become aware of their bars, their cells, their individual humanity, they would discover that their self-imposed boundary is movable.  Their Sphere of Possibility can be expanded as they navigate in the new directions that are now apparent to them.  Again, they can only push the boundaries so far, but the more aware they are, the more willing they are to explore new paths, the farther they will be able to push out those boundaries, and expand their Sphere of Possibilities. 

*phew*  Yeah, so that's what I think about all of this. 

[Adios]

I like where this is going. I think our personal BIP is always at a crossroad and the path is one limitless intersection after another. Our decisions will determine whether we go left, right, straight or even backwards. Our decisions also determine the size, shape and comfort of our own cell/prison. One thing I believe is certain, to keep our cell static and unchanging would require incredible effort and work.