Indecision 08 Wingnut thread

[fomenter]

The Free Market does work, and although Greed and Duplicity seek to undermine it, that does not mean we should seek an inflexible centralized planning that will also be subject to the same, no?
I didn't say anything about having faith in Greed and Duplicity.

I don't know what Paul believes but i don't think libertarians believe in the (anarchist) completely unrestricted free market. I think they would suggest that in a real world situation that demanded 25 well written, carefully crafted, functional regulations we would be better of with 10 (well written carefully crafted functional regulations) than having 3783 poorly written,dysfunctional regulations, and that we should take our time and get the remaining 15 necessary regulations right. If i get the philosophy the point is limited government, let the free market do what it can, limit the government to doing only what it must do (and doing it well).

[LMNO]

The reason we have 3783 laws is that clever, greedy assholes always find a loophole, which then takes an additional law to plug it up.

[fomenter]

The reason we have 3783 laws is that clever, greedy assholes always find a loophole, which then takes an additional law to plug it up.

hence the importance of carefully crafted well written functional laws, creating badly written laws and finding the loop holes in them is a industry supported by politicians and there lawyer Buddy's, there's gold in them thar regulations.

[LMNO]

The reason we have 3783 laws is that clever, greedy assholes always find a loophole, which then takes an additional law to plug it up.

hence the importance of carefully crafted well written functional laws, creating badly written laws and finding the loop holes in them is a industry supported by politicians and there lawyer Buddy's, there's gold in them thar regulations.

Can you think of any regulation that was written so well that no one ever found a way around it?

[fomenter]

nope and there may never be one, the law must be fluid, interpreted and reinterpreted written and re written in order to work, this doesn't mean the principals of limiting regulation or eliminating unnecessary regulations in favor of fewer  better regulations is wrong.   

[Cain]

Its also a brilliant cover for undermining workers rights.

[Elder Iptuous]

The reason we have 3783 laws is that clever, greedy assholes always find a loophole, which then takes an additional law to plug it up.

Law is a formal system and thus suseptible to Godel's Incompleteness theorem.  You -can't- plug the holes. you can only move them around.  so you simply accept the inherent incompleteness or inconsitency, are rely on human intellect to deal with their abuse on a case by case basis.  Trying to 'fix' the system will simply cause it to grow unbounded.

[fomenter]

Its also a brilliant cover for undermining workers rights.

or corruption happens any where the corrupt happen to be.
  no philosophy/ideology is immune from this

edit or political party is immune from this

[LMNO]

Carreer lawmakers know there is no permanent fix.  They also know that the corrupt exist in every population.


So small, plug-the-hole laws work as a better overall solution than large, fluid guidelines to be manipulated by the corrupt.

[fomenter]

Carreer lawmakers know there is no permanent fix.  They also know that the corrupt exist in every population.


So small, plug-the-hole laws work as a better overall solution than large, fluid guidelines to be manipulated by the corrupt.

law maker/politician plugs hole in law - gets credit/popularity from the people for being tough on X -  politician/law maker gets big donation from company doing X - company "gets" new loop hole in law - politician has money/popularity wins election - politician plugs hole in law.....

[LMNO]

Or, your way:

Companies buy politicians, Laws/industries get de-regulated, companies decide not to be moral, companies fuck the citizenry, repeatedly, without lube, and no reacharound.



Incidentally, you still haven't cited a decent law that fits your ideals that has ever been passed.

[Elder Iptuous]

Carreer lawmakers know there is no permanent fix.  They also know that the corrupt exist in every population.


So small, plug-the-hole laws work as a better overall solution than large, fluid guidelines to be manipulated by the corrupt.

We are sinking in evidence that they do not work though.  In the end you wind up with a morass of laws that are not able to be followed as nobody knows/understands them all.  the chances of inconsistency rise.  The 'need' for further lawyers/politicians/bureaucrats increases.  Elegance in law should be a higher virtue than expedience.

[LMNO]

Carreer lawmakers know there is no permanent fix.  They also know that the corrupt exist in every population.


So small, plug-the-hole laws work as a better overall solution than large, fluid guidelines to be manipulated by the corrupt.

We are sinking in evidence that they do not work though.  In the end you wind up with a morass of laws that are not able to be followed as nobody knows/understands them all.  the chances of inconsistency rise.  The 'need' for further lawyers/politicians/bureaucrats increases.  Elegance in law should be a higher virtue than expedience.

You may be new enough here that you haven't met the barstool yet.







In other words, it would be extremely nice if congress could get together in bipartisan unity and write a law that would be broad enough to limit all corruption, yet not infinge on an individual's personality, flexible enough to cover all future possibilities, and integrate seamlessly with Big Industry's commitment to responsible growth, equitable pay for all its workers, and fair play within the market.


Do you believe in the tooth fairy, too?

[fomenter]

Or, your way:

Companies buy politicians, Laws/industries get de-regulated, companies decide not to be moral, companies fuck the citizenry, repeatedly, without lube, and no reacharound.



Incidentally, you still haven't cited a decent law that fits your ideals that has ever been passed.

not what i am proposing at all

politicians represent the people laws/regulations are simplified/clarified in a way that keeps the corrupt companies from fucking us w/o lube and still let the companies do business (reach around). when the laws fail (they will ) they get fixed corrected w/o the excessive regulation complexity that leads to the corruption we have now.

again i don't have a example of this kind of law, i started out talking about libertarian philosophy which is seldom practiced ( the constitution which is fairly simple and fairly libertarian is probably the best example i can give and it is interpreted and re interpreted as i said all laws will be)

[tyrannosaurus vex]

the complexity of an economy as enormous as in the US or Europe require a certain amount of ambiguity in laws and regulations. guidelines that protect workers in one sector of the economy could very well harm them in another sector. for that reason, it is necessary to have fairly openly interpretable laws so that the courts are free to decide and enforce the proper outcomes of different situations on a case-by-case basis.

the government's job, in my opinion, is not to describe specific processes for business to follow but to foster an open environment where both businesses and individuals can thrive. a massive "simplification" of laws and regulations could easily choke the life out of the economy by restricting business practices too much.

i think the best way to deal with corporate and political corruption is to expand the judicial system, put regulations in place to protect it from corruption, have heavy oversight of the judiciary, and make the services offered by the courts much more widely accessible. companies tend to fear loss of revenue much more than they fear enforcement of existing laws, and having a judicial system willing and able to impose punitive fines and other measures in retaliation for unethical behavior is a much better and more efficient solution than just legislating the crap out of what companies are "allowed to do" in the first place.