Indecision 08 Wingnut thread

[Elder Iptuous]

what's wrong with that?
I think it's ridiculous that there's no mandatory term of civil service in this country.

Compulsory service is simply counter to the ideals of the country. (not to say that that has stopped the .gov in the past, though...)  Conscription is slavery.

Of course, it would also help if the Federal government had some money, too.

Faith backed money -> Govt. mandated faith -> unlimited money 
(purchasing power not guaranteed)

[East Coast Hustle]

what's wrong with that?
I think it's ridiculous that there's no mandatory term of civil service in this country.

Compulsory service is simply counter to the ideals of the country. (not to say that that has stopped the .gov in the past, though...)  Conscription is slavery.

says who?

[Cain]

Purchasing power seems to be the issue, currently.

Also, it would be nice if people realized that this could actually be fairly important and useful, but I doubt that is the case.  You or I, shown the facts, can look at such works as John Robbs and say "holy shit, society is fall to crap unless we decentralize shit and get people in local communities who know how to do shit up and running" but unfortunately, most people will not because....well because they're lazy or stupid or don't give a fuck or simply unable to concieve of such an event (quite like those Russians in 1989).

The best way would be to give the people who wanted to learn such things the money and resources to do so.  But the problem with that is:

a) the Government's money is worth shit, and
b) most people do not have the financial freedom or resources to take time off from their job to learn such useful skills, and those who do will just run off to their gated communities when whatever it is that is going to happen does happen, and therefore it wont benefit anyone who isn't rich enough to flee such problems anyway.

Now, if the economy were to be restructured to the point of allowing someting like basic income (a la Thomas Paine's proposals), or a high set minimum negative income tax (as proposed by Milton Friedman) then it would likely give the time and financial freedom for more people to take part.  But then there wouldn't be a reserve of nearly optionless poor workers and everything would go to shit (everything being defined as share value and profit margins).

In such a situation, I can see the draft being the imperfect, compromise solution.

[Elder Iptuous]

what's wrong with that?
I think it's ridiculous that there's no mandatory term of civil service in this country.

Compulsory service is simply counter to the ideals of the country. (not to say that that has stopped the .gov in the past, though...)  Conscription is slavery.

says who?

well, it's not really an explicitly stated rule.  the 13th amendment is sometimes trotted out for this argument, but we both know that's not really applicable.  You have to admit, however, that it has always been terribly unpopular, controversial, and unevenly enforced.  It's a 'bad thing'.  And voluntarism seems to have a strong undercurrent in our culture, even if there are signs of it starting to wane.
I guess really i simply don't like the idea.  I think a pretty good chunk or society won't either.

[Elder Iptuous]

Also, it would be nice if people realized that this could actually be fairly important and useful, but I doubt that is the case.  You or I, shown the facts, can look at such works as John Robbs and say "holy shit, society is fall to crap unless we decentralize shit and get people in local communities who know how to do shit up and running" but unfortunately, most people will not because....well because they're lazy or stupid or don't give a fuck or simply unable to concieve of such an event (quite like those Russians in 1989).

The best way would be to give the people who wanted to learn such things the money and resources to do so. 
...
In such a situation, I can see the draft being the imperfect, compromise solution.

This doesn't make sense to me.  You are saying that without local cooperation between citizens that are 'lazy or stupid or don't give a fuck or simply unable to concieve of such an event' society will fall apart, so we must provide them time and money to be industrious, intelligent, concerned, and imaginative?
I don't see any reason that'll work.  I also am not so pessimistic that society will 'fall apart'.  It will get hard to the point that people are motivated into the virtues that you are saying we should force.  That's just the way the wheel of fortune turns, no?  You think we can stop it at the top?

[Kai]

From what I read of his civil service proposal (elsewhere) or what he is thinking about it, it was something like 50 hours a year for high schoolers and 100 hours a year for college students, the college portion nonmandatory. Furthermore, you get your first 4000 dollars college education free if you do.

What younger person doesn't have an hour or 2 every week to help people? FUCK, are we really that apathetic?

I think its an excellent idea and wished I had done it in high school on my own anyway.

[East Coast Hustle]

what's wrong with that?
I think it's ridiculous that there's no mandatory term of civil service in this country.

Compulsory service is simply counter to the ideals of the country. (not to say that that has stopped the .gov in the past, though...)  Conscription is slavery.

says who?

well, it's not really an explicitly stated rule.  the 13th amendment is sometimes trotted out for this argument, but we both know that's not really applicable.  You have to admit, however, that it has always been terribly unpopular, controversial, and unevenly enforced.  It's a 'bad thing'.  And voluntarism seems to have a strong undercurrent in our culture, even if there are signs of it starting to wane.
I guess really i simply don't like the idea.  I think a pretty good chunk or society won't either.

you don't like the idea of people having to put in some time working for the betterment of their community?

why not?

[Cain]

I'm saying people who will afford to bail will, and leave everyone else out in the cold.  And unless you want to see France circa 1789 all over again, you'll take steps to make sure when Bad Shit Goes Down, it doesn't result in everyone going backwards 500 years.  Some people are gonna be lazy useless fucks anyway, and quite frankly I would not cry if those people got, say, eaten by bandits.  However, I am not so down with myself getting eaten by bandits because of their lazy stupidity.

And society is so interconnected and technological power is devolving to such a level that sooner or later it will be exceptionally easy for anyone to carry out a major attack with serious and long-lasting repurcussions.  As time increases, the chances of a systempunkt eventually reach one, regardless of where one is.  And that is not even mentioning natural disasters, which may become less predictable with climate change.  I'd rather, in such a situation, to not have to rely on any central government (which may well decide such a disaster is "too expensive" to bother with) and instead rely on people in the same sort of situation.  It need not be all of them, especially since many are, as previously mentioned, lazy or useless, but without some sort of government program that eventually rounds back around to the people who can afford to take such training and not not have necessary work commitments, and I don't trust those people because they will buy their way out of any problem and leave the rest of us to, say, get eaten by bandits.

[Payne]

I'm saying people who will afford to bail will, and leave everyone else out in the cold.  And unless you want to see France circa 1789 all over again, you'll take steps to make sure when Bad Shit Goes Down, it doesn't result in everyone going backwards 500 years.  Some people are gonna be lazy useless fucks anyway, and quite frankly I would not cry if those people got, say, eaten by bandits.  However, I am not so down with myself getting eaten by bandits because of their lazy stupidity.

And society is so interconnected and technological power is devolving to such a level that sooner or later it will be exceptionally easy for anyone to carry out a major attack with serious and long-lasting repurcussions.  As time increases, the chances of a systempunkt eventually reach one, regardless of where one is.  And that is not even mentioning natural disasters, which may become less predictable with climate change.  I'd rather, in such a situation, to not have to rely on any central government (which may well decide such a disaster is "too expensive" to bother with) and instead rely on people in the same sort of situation.  It need not be all of them, especially since many are, as previously mentioned, lazy or useless, but without some sort of government program that eventually rounds back around to the people who can afford to take such training and not not have necessary work commitments, and I don't trust those people because they will buy their way out of any problem and leave the rest of us to, say, get eaten by bandits.

[Golden Applesauce]

From what I read of his civil service proposal (elsewhere) or what he is thinking about it, it was something like 50 hours a year for high schoolers and 100 hours a year for college students, the college portion nonmandatory. Furthermore, you get your first 4000 dollars college education free if you do.

What younger person doesn't have an hour or 2 every week to help people? FUCK, are we really that apathetic?

I think its an excellent idea and wished I had done it in high school on my own anyway.

I like the idea, provided we get paid ($$ for education is good) and that we get to do something useful.

Iptuous, I agree with you about the 'forced' bit though - even if in this case the plan is fair, I can't think of any way for it to be constitutional without, say, a draft also being constitutional.  And by draft I mean one of those neat systems were the better off can get out of it somehow.

I think a better proposal might be to just have the peace corp match what the army gives out for recruits.  Except, you know, money.  I hear our gov't is running kind of low on that at the moment.

[Cain]

Incidentally, the Lib Dem leader here has mentioned something similar, and its about the only smart idea he has ever had. Well apart from that whole "not locking people up for stupid shit" thing.

[Elder Iptuous]

you don't like the idea of people having to put in some time working for the betterment of their community?
why not?

well, what is the implied threat if they disobey?

[AFK]

From what I read of his civil service proposal (elsewhere) or what he is thinking about it, it was something like 50 hours a year for high schoolers and 100 hours a year for college students, the college portion nonmandatory. Furthermore, you get your first 4000 dollars college education free if you do.

What younger person doesn't have an hour or 2 every week to help people? FUCK, are we really that apathetic?

I think its an excellent idea and wished I had done it in high school on my own anyway.

I completely agree.  For one thing, in high school, it's a way to enhance the run-of-the-mill High School education.  Makes it a little more than straight book-learning.  And I think having some energy vested in the community is a good thing for the student and the community itself.  

I also think the college component is genius.  Who wouldn't turn down a $4000 discount on their education for a few hours of work?  And I would think this experience would tend to be much more meaningful then some work-study job.  I hope he is able to get this into law.  

[Vene]

From what I read of his civil service proposal (elsewhere) or what he is thinking about it, it was something like 50 hours a year for high schoolers and 100 hours a year for college students, the college portion nonmandatory. Furthermore, you get your first 4000 dollars college education free if you do.

What younger person doesn't have an hour or 2 every week to help people? FUCK, are we really that apathetic?

I think its an excellent idea and wished I had done it in high school on my own anyway.

Speaking as a selfish asshole, I would gladly do 100 hours of volunteer work for $4000.

[Cain]

Also, I'm not saying we will all literally get eaten by bandits.

I'm saying that a cascading system failure may result in an infrastructure meltdown which will cause people to go back to their primary loyalties, which may result in zones of lawlessness which could get occupied by guerrilla entrepreneurs.

In such a situation, which may be brought about either by agency or by accident, I would rather have people in the community with the training and preparation to deal with such an event, minimizing damage and coordinating relief efforts instead of relying on a government agency, such as FEMA or the Environment Agency to get involved.  Might there be better methods than a draft?  Sure.  But a draft does guarantee that some people stuck in the same situation will know how to react.